Guest pelmetman Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Dave225 - 2013-03-06 8:38 PM pelmetman - 2013-03-06 8:30 PM Another Bargain camper ;-) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knaus-Traveller-580-on-VW-Chassis-2-5-LPG-2-Berth-Motorhome-MANY-MANY-EXTRAS-/321085143097?pt=UK_Campers_Caravans_Motorhome Are you getting a 'kickback' on these??? As if *-).................just pointing that there is no reason why be a motorhomeist should be expensive ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-06 8:42 PM Dave225 - 2013-03-06 8:38 PM pelmetman - 2013-03-06 8:30 PM Another Bargain camper ;-) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knaus-Traveller-580-on-VW-Chassis-2-5-LPG-2-Berth-Motorhome-MANY-MANY-EXTRAS-/321085143097?pt=UK_Campers_Caravans_Motorhome Are you getting a 'kickback' on these??? As if *-).................just pointing that there is no reason why be a motorhomeist should be expensive ;-) No, but could be a load more hassle getting spares, and keeping it on the road. ;-) I believe getting just a clutch cable is nigh on impossible for some "classic" vans. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Tony Jones - 2013-03-06 5:55 PM The Motorhome v Caravan question really comes down to what kind of touring you do most of. Basing yourself on a site & exploring the area round about > caravan. Moving on most days, doing your exploring during the day then finding somewhere to sleep > motorhome. Pretty much it in a nutshell. And if careful and prepared to compromise, particularly on space and do without the 40" flat screen etc, it is possible to have a compact sized CB or PV capable of going anywhere a car can be driven. My van is simple enough to de-camp in a matter of minutes and drive off down any tiny single track country B road leaving the juggernauts to sit on site.....because they cannot go where I go. Tony Jones - 2013-03-06 5:55 PM The question of whether motorhomes (or any other commodities) are "overpriced" really turns on how much competition there is in the market. The "right price" of anything is what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller accept - in a free and competitive market. On this Tony I have to admit i'm staggered at the amount of money around despite the country being in such an horrendous financial state. It seems there are still plenty of people able to clobber £50k + on a MH. Peanut money to a Banker who has just picked up his bonus for making a hash of things.....but two years salary for joe average who will get kicked out of his job if he makes a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-06 7:03 PM 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-06 6:58 PM Yes but some of us want to be able to think above the din of an old un. :D or cruise down a motorway at more than 40 mph tops :D My 1990 Transit camper is much quieter than my 1999 works Transit ;-) .............and Horace will do 60 mph towing the trailer ;-).............until we hit a hill :D My 'old 'un', a 93 Mk4 Transit Di was very noisy on short runs or pottering around when cold.....mainly due to me ripping out what bits were left of the stupid soundprooofing rubbish Ford stick in the engine bay to help soak the water up and rot your van that bit quicker. But once on a motorway the agricultural rattle would turn to a gentle hum and the thing would fly along at 80 or 90mph returning an easy 35mpg. Driven at 55 - 60mph returned up to 40mpg. My 2000 reg Mk5 TDi whilst admittedly much quieter, runs out of puff by 75 - 80mph and at those speeds you will be lucky to get much more than 28mpg. It's a much heavier van than my previous and the 'turbo' is a total joke! But my biggest 'beef' with the Mk5 is the ridiculous dashboard with silly slopes and curves everywhere making it impossible to stick anything on top! There is a big 'bin box'.....but thats right over on the passenger side.....totally useless for a solo traveller like me! The good old Mk4 dashboard was a proper dashboard......flat top and squared off sections. Mine got used for everything, from a dining table to holding a collection of pens, maps, fag lighters, torches and all kinds of general junk! And not once did anything fall off on to the floor either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 snowie - 2013-03-05 10:43 PM ... but I would defend the basic premise........ That the sums don't add up (except in favour of the manufacturers)... Though I'm sure some motorhomes - especially very high-end ones - will return significant profit for all in the manufacture / distribution / retail chain I would hazard a guess that your average beast won't create massive profit when all of the incidental expenses including things like premises / sales staff / after sales fixes etc etc are factored in. If Alan were to buy all the components needed and paid himself a very reasonable £20 per hour to assemble them from scratch I think he may have a slightly different take. There's no wonder manufacturers build them very quickly and sloppily (and why they regularly fall to bits): they just can't afford to build them to a very high standard, and still turn a reasonable profit - until you get up to the flagship 'liner' ranges of the big German builders etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertieburstner Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 getting back to the original point- they are overpriced, but the trade in value holds up well compared to other vehicles. A 10 year old Lunar caravan? £5,500 on a quick google search today A 10 year old Fiat truck? £2,500 again just a quick look on google for a 2003 2.3 Ducato I will wager that a 10 year old motorhome is worth far more than either of these taken separately. I think it's similar to a Harley Davidson. My first Harley cost me £9,000 in 1990 and is worth about £8,000 today, an equivalent Kawasaki/Honda?Suzuki worth peanuts. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 crinklystarfish - 2013-03-07 9:38 AM snowie - 2013-03-05 10:43 PM ... but I would defend the basic premise........ That the sums don't add up (except in favour of the manufacturers)... Though I'm sure some motorhomes - especially very high-end ones - will return significant profit for all in the manufacture / distribution / retail chain I would hazard a guess that your average beast won't create massive profit when all of the incidental expenses including things like premises / sales staff / after sales fixes etc etc are factored in. If Alan were to buy all the components needed and paid himself a very reasonable £20 per hour to assemble them from scratch I think he may have a slightly different take. There's no wonder manufacturers build them very quickly and sloppily (and why they regularly fall to bits): they just can't afford to build them to a very high standard, and still turn a reasonable profit - until you get up to the flagship 'liner' ranges of the big German builders etc. I agree with all that you say Crinkles; I've totted up the retail cost of all of the components used in our van, and I'm happy with the calculation, in fact don't think much profit was made by the converter. What I struggle with is the supposed benefits of scale production. It's obvious that tooling costs are high for CBs and curvy wood interiored PVCs, but it's not that much different from a caravan; really. I think the distribution /retail chain is the culprit, but vans are so complicated that most people need the tech support. It also helps maintain resale values. What REALLY gets me is the leather seats and wooden dashboard premium that seems to me takes the place of good design and excellent engineering. That and the 3-year warranty on the most popular base vehicles keeps the "churning" going, and keeps the dealers and punters happy, Must get out and prep the van regards alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydney1 Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Peter James - 2013-03-06 8:29 PM If you think motorhomes are overpriced look at the 'luxury' car market. I wonder why anyone would pay £100k for a car when you see what you can get in a motorhome for that money Agreed. Found myself waiting at traffic lights right outside an Aston Martin garage, looking across and seeing that a particularly nice DB was the same prices as the new AT Scout I purchased just before Christmas and thinking I'd got good value for money. It you made decisions based on the net costs of things, you'd never buy Coca Cola, new houses, mobile phones........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Sydney1 - 2013-03-08 9:28 PM Peter James - 2013-03-06 8:29 PM If you think motorhomes are overpriced look at the 'luxury' car market. I wonder why anyone would pay £100k for a car when you see what you can get in a motorhome for that money Agreed. Found myself waiting at traffic lights right outside an Aston Martin garage, looking across and seeing that a particularly nice DB was the same prices as the new AT Scout I purchased just before Christmas and thinking I'd got good value for money. It you made decisions based on the net costs of things, you'd never buy Coca Cola, new houses, mobile phones........... There was a car in Sunday times at weekend, cost........ 3.5 million. All sold out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 bertieburstner - 2013-03-07 10:32 AM getting back to the original point- they are overpriced, but the trade in value holds up well compared to other vehicles. I think it's similar to a Harley Davidson. My first Harley cost me £9,000 in 1990 and is worth about £8,000 today, an equivalent Kawasaki/Honda?Suzuki worth peanuts. *-) Not a particularly good example Bertie! Twenty three years ago £9k was actually worth £9k. In 'todays money' it's very little. Hang on to your bike!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Bulletguy - 2013-03-09 2:04 AM bertieburstner - 2013-03-07 10:32 AM getting back to the original point- they are overpriced, but the trade in value holds up well compared to other vehicles. I think it's similar to a Harley Davidson. My first Harley cost me £9,000 in 1990 and is worth about £8,000 today, an equivalent Kawasaki/Honda?Suzuki worth peanuts. *-) Not a particularly good example Bertie! Twenty three years ago £9k was actually worth £9k. In 'todays money' it's very little. Hang on to your bike!! But if Bertie only spent the 9k once rather than changing every couple of years ;-)..............he'd be quids in :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-09 12:10 AM Sydney1 - 2013-03-08 9:28 PM Peter James - 2013-03-06 8:29 PM If you think motorhomes are overpriced look at the 'luxury' car market. I wonder why anyone would pay £100k for a car when you see what you can get in a motorhome for that money Agreed. Found myself waiting at traffic lights right outside an Aston Martin garage, looking across and seeing that a particularly nice DB was the same prices as the new AT Scout I purchased just before Christmas and thinking I'd got good value for money. It you made decisions based on the net costs of things, you'd never buy Coca Cola, new houses, mobile phones........... There was a car in Sunday times at weekend, cost........ 3.5 million. All sold out Yes. I was really cheesed-off when they told me they had all gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 In 1974 I bought a Ford Escort Lotus Twin Cam (the much rarer. 800+ units, lighter version of the Lotus Cortina) for £900. Full retail new was around £2k. I sold it a year or two later for around £400 when part-exing it for a Capri GT. I saw an immacualte one recently where the owner said he would not sell for less than £65! Hmmm, one of my better deals ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 bolero boy - 2013-03-09 11:32 AM In 1974 I bought a Ford Escort Lotus Twin Cam (the much rarer. 800+ units, lighter version of the Lotus Cortina) for £900. Full retail new was around £2k. I sold it a year or two later for around £400 when part-exing it for a Capri GT. I saw an immacualte one recently where the owner said he would not sell for less than £65! Hmmm, one of my better deals ;-) Especially when I left the 'K' off my figure......................should have read '£65k' B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 worked with a guy who was obsessive re cars or a car. inherited a lotus cortina from his dad. his garage was like an operating theater, all white, pristine....In the middle stood this cortina as if it was just out the showroom. in fact probably a lot better now then when built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cattwg Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 We usually go away for 6 to 8 weeks at a time and we tour – a night here a couple or three nights there and if we really like a place or want to explore it in more depth then maybe a week. And we tend not to use motorways and major trunk routes. There is no way I would undertake that sort of trip with a caravan in tow (or a car for that matter). Yes motorhomes are very expensive and may well be overpriced, but for us using one is the only practical way that we can see large parts or Europe and beyond. So for us towing is out and we simply could not afford to tour by car and use hotels and b & b’s for accommodation and then having to buy every main meal at a café or restaurant. We have towed in the past so are aware of the advantages that having two separate components bring but to us it is very much ‘horses for courses’ – i.e. a motorhome. Cattwg :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 They are certainly expensive. However, I think the question may be somewhat over simplified. That is to say, whereas they are expensive everywhere, they seem to be particularly expensive in UK. I think it may, therefore, be fairer to re-phrase the proposition to say "Motorhomes are overpriced in UK.............discuss". A small amount of the difference between UK and continental prices is attributable to VAT, but it is vary small, as most of the neighbouring states have about the same rate of VAT on motorhomes. Some of the extra cost on imported vans lies in the currency risk that is built into importer's published price lists. The price to UK dealers seems not to vary with actual currency fluctuations, so they seem unable to offer substantial discounts to list prices when the pound rises. It is generally true that for the same specification on the same van the continental buyer will pay less than the UK buyer. This inflated price must encourage some element of profit taking by UK manufacturers, and perhaps more so by dealers. We are a small and awkward, but relatively sheltered, market. Our favourite layouts are not, generally, those favoured by continentals. They have to adapt their designs to sell to us, inevitably increasing their costs somewhat. We drive on the wrong side, so the base vehicles are also that bit more expensive, even when bought in quantity. Our home producers are too numerous, and lack scale, because they don't manufacture for export, so are inefficient relative to the larger continental manufacturers, again adding to cost through reduced purchasing power on materials and equipment. However, even allowing for all these presumed contributors to higher UK prices, it remains difficult to understand why the differences are as great as they are. I'd guess that Germany produces more motorhomes than any other European country, and that we probably import more vans from Germany than anywhere else. There seem to be more dealers in Germany relative to population, than we have in UK, which should mean generally reduced turnovers, leading to higher costs. Yet, it does not. Try researching the cost of a German made van bought through a UK dealership, and the same van bought through a German dealership. Look at UK prices on the internet, and then look for examples of the same van offered on mobile.de, the German cars and motorhomes internet marketplace. Then do the sums on exchange rate and a quite sharp difference will become apparent. Specifications will vary a bit, so the comparison will have an element of apples and pears, but I think you will find the exercise informative. More specifically, I've recently been looking for a German made LHD van, requiring a factory order to get the specification I want, and have looked at three ways to obtain it. First - and it was first - from my nearest UK franchised dealer, who initially just gave me the list price. Second, from a non-franchised UK dealer who imports independently from German dealers to sell from stock, but will also do "specials" toorder. Third, from an importer who only imports to order from German dealers. Both importers priced the van in Sterling, at the prevailing exchange rate, and were within £200 of each other's price. I advised the UK dealer of the prices I had been quoted form the alternative suppliers, and invited him to get closer, saying I was prepared to pay some premium for the convenience of a nearer dealer, and for the comfort of dealing with a well reputed firm. His response was an offer that was, in round figures, £3,000 below the UK list price, but still £5,000 above the two importer's prices! I'm not blaming the UK dealer for this, merely reporting the result of my enquiries: even the UK list price is about £3,000 higher than the German list price, inflated for "delivery and on the road charges", so he was hobbled from the outset. But, now consider this. In the case of the franchised UK dealer he is supplied direct from the factory in Germany. In the cases of the other two, they are buying from German dealers, and then driving the vehicles back to UK. Both will have built an element of profit into their prices, and both supplying German dealers will also have taken profit on the sale. Both importers will supply the van fully registered, with all required lighting and speedometer changes verified by VOSA in the process. So, that £5,000 saving over the UK dealer's price also includes the cost of a single individual travelling to a German dealer and driving the van back to UK, plus his and the German dealer's profit, plus manufacturer's profit and delivery from the factory, as opposed to the UK dealer's price with only his, and the manufacturer's profits and delivery from the factory. How can this be? Beats me! But if it is symptomatic of something about the costs or efficiencies within UK supply and manufacturing chain, as it seems it must be, it is something we need to fix PDQ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Brian, whilst the UK dealer may be supplied direct by manufacturer that doesn't mean he will not have to go throu an importer. Certain companies proport to be main dealers/importers when in fact there is an importer that is never mentioned and have no retail presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-06 9:05 PM pelmetman - 2013-03-06 8:42 PM Dave225 - 2013-03-06 8:38 PM pelmetman - 2013-03-06 8:30 PM Another Bargain camper ;-) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knaus-Traveller-580-on-VW-Chassis-2-5-LPG-2-Berth-Motorhome-MANY-MANY-EXTRAS-/321085143097?pt=UK_Campers_Caravans_Motorhome Are you getting a 'kickback' on these??? As if *-).................just pointing that there is no reason why be a motorhomeist should be expensive ;-) No, but could be a load more hassle getting spares, and keeping it on the road. ;-) I believe getting just a clutch cable is nigh on impossible for some "classic" vans. :-( I agree with the point. Many moons ago I happily worked on all sorts of vehicles but now at the twilight age I just cannot be b.....d anymore. From Dave's (Pelmetman) comments I guess there is a good decade splitting our ages and so although i admire the idea, sorry no more. I will be curious to see what he is doing when he catches up. I even decided in a fit of folly to wash the inside of the alloy wheels on the Volvo. Getting them back on the hubs left me knackered and needing a long rest, yet years ago I did many in a day. I used to service my old Mercedes motorhome as it was relatively simple but now........? So, it is with regret that i succumb to old age and allow others to do the dirty work. So, any vehicle I have needs to be as good as I can make it and 2 decades of use just does not appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Touching on the arcane art of economics there Brian and manifestly hardly anyone has any clue how the monster actually functions: least not the fools who are in a position of influence. In the vernacular, any old piece of cr@p is worth exactly as much as some mug is prepared to pay. Cutting to the chase, I reckon that with new 'mainstream motorhomes' - arbitrarily those making up the market within say the central 80% of a normal distribution curve - we generally pay a reasonable amount for an adequate product. Anyone who thinks there are big profits to be had is more than entitled to set up a business and start knocking them out - here or anywhere else they fancy. I'd venture that only a very few select people will be living the high-life on the back of motorhome production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Dave225 - 2013-03-09 8:06 PM 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-06 9:05 PM pelmetman - 2013-03-06 8:42 PM Dave225 - 2013-03-06 8:38 PM pelmetman - 2013-03-06 8:30 PM Another Bargain camper ;-) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knaus-Traveller-580-on-VW-Chassis-2-5-LPG-2-Berth-Motorhome-MANY-MANY-EXTRAS-/321085143097?pt=UK_Campers_Caravans_Motorhome Are you getting a 'kickback' on these??? As if *-).................just pointing that there is no reason why be a motorhomeist should be expensive ;-) No, but could be a load more hassle getting spares, and keeping it on the road. ;-) I believe getting just a clutch cable is nigh on impossible for some "classic" vans. :-( I agree with the point. Many moons ago I happily worked on all sorts of vehicles but now at the twilight age I just cannot be b.....d anymore. From Dave's (Pelmetman) comments I guess there is a good decade splitting our ages and so although i admire the idea, sorry no more. I will be curious to see what he is doing when he catches up. I even decided in a fit of folly to wash the inside of the alloy wheels on the Volvo. Getting them back on the hubs left me knackered and needing a long rest, yet years ago I did many in a day. I used to service my old Mercedes motorhome as it was relatively simple but now........? So, it is with regret that i succumb to old age and allow others to do the dirty work. So, any vehicle I have needs to be as good as I can make it and 2 decades of use just does not appeal. Its got nothing to do with age Dave :D............. I do nothing mechanical to my vehicles 8-)............I even called the AA out to change my tyre (lol)...........although it was because my jack was knackered ;-)........... I use a local mechanic who is very reasonable and knows Trannies inside out B-)...... Although I do, do a bit of fiddling about with my soft furnishings :D ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Of course they are overpriced - you only have to look at the discounts offered on current year models at the end of each season when the dealers want to clear their stock for them to get "new" model year vehicles on their forecourts.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted March 9, 2013 Author Share Posted March 9, 2013 flicka - 2013-03-09 11:17 PM Of course they are overpriced - you only have to look at the discounts offered on current year models at the end of each season when the dealers want to clear their stock for them to get "new" model year vehicles on their forecourts.. Thanks flicka; I've seen the arguments concerning UK and Mainland European motorhome pricing differences, and can't argue. I'm not aware of any UK manufacturer offering a LHD option to encourage buyers from the rest of Europe. There will be reasons; amongst them the UK preferred layouts versus European preferences; all very depressing and not very adventurous. My original and main premise was concerning the "Motorhome Premium", specifically the price we pay to have what is fundamentally a caravan with an engine; or a "motor" with an integral accommodation unit: the price we pay to avoid "Tugging" I could put a value on being able to stay on FP sites (not an option for caravans) and likewise for Aires (which we rarely use), and any wildcamping generally (don't think you see many caravans wildcamping) but it's a heck of a premium IMHO. regards alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Anything I consider overpriced I do not buy, simple, some idiots buy Bose radios with "wave guide technology", just a mere £600 for a kitchen radio, even though perfectly good sets can be had for a fraction of that price, Mmmmm. 8-) There are "budget" motorhomes that come in cheaper or about the same as a separate van and tow vehicle in any event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 colin - 2013-03-09 7:49 PM Brian, whilst the UK dealer may be supplied direct by manufacturer that doesn't mean he will not have to go throu an importer. Certain companies proport to be main dealers/importers when in fact there is an importer that is never mentioned and have no retail presence. True Colin, but in this case I understand that is not so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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