11 month old FIAT, £2000 repair bill

[stevec195]

Has anyone heard of a FIAT engine needing £1877.76 worth of repairs after only 11 months and covering 3202 miles??? Ours does. We came back from France after Christmas, on 3rd Jan 2013, nothing untoward with the engine, left on drive for 4 weeks, in sub zero temperatures, I came out to move it, key in, glow plugs warmed, turned key. There was a jolt and “clunking” noise from the front left hand side of the engine (which I now know was the cam belt jumping a tooth), and the engine ran briefly, probably on 2 cylinders, then died, I tried again, and nothing would get it going. I left it a couple of weeks, hoping that it was frozen French diesel (I was hoping that it may not be as winterised as ours, and it was -6 degrees C when it happened), it still refused to fire.

I phoned Camper assist, who sent the RAC, he could not get it going either, so he arranged for it to be taken to Guest trucks. I got a phone call to say the diagnostic computer said that the engine had been over revved, they said the cam belt had “jumped” a tooth, they also said they did not think FIAT would not pay for the repair, as it was not a warrantable repair, because it had happened when the engine was over revved, which I categorically refute.

I have received a report that states they reset the timing issues, still not starting, stripped out the cam, and found broken rockers. The bill is to reassemble the engine, to see if further damage needs repairing!!!

Can anyone advise how I proceed with this? Surely, If the engine had been over revved, the RAC would be picking the motor home up from the side of a motorway with a bucketful of engine parts, not my drive?

If the engine had been over revved, is it even possible that you can drive normally with broken rockers? How do you prove that this happened when you tried to start normally, how do you prove that you have not over revved an engine, when a diagnostic tool says you have????

I am the sole driver, except on 3 occasions, twice back at the dealer for repairs to the heating, and once when I had the hand controls fitted. I am at a total loss to make any sense of this situation. All suggestions gratefully received on a way forward

I don’t want this to turn into a FIAT knocking thread, I just need a little guidance .

 

[RogerC]

The simple answer is the engine can not be over revved.  There is a rev limiter built into the ecu/software as well as a physical 'stop' on the linkage.  If there was no limiter there would be blown engines all over the place.

 

No you can not drive 'normally' with broken rockers.  With a cam belt that has jumped a 'tooth' it will most likely have caused the valves to hit the top of the piston causing a host of damage. 

 

The bottom line is this could be a very costly thing to put right.  Stripping the engine and rebuilding (replacing noticeably damaged parts) still might not resolve the issue.  There is a possibility of the bottom end bearings having been damaged so unless they have stripped and measured all the bottom end/checked the bores etc I don't see how they could have priced the job for you.

 

I had a valve let go on an Iveco 2.8 diesel and taking into account labour to strip the engine out, dismantle to inspect, replace parts, rebuild and reinstall it was cheaper to get a recon motor fitted.

 

I have to say though that if it was my motor and this happened I would be having a long talk with the dealers and if no joy legal advice would soon follow.

 

[sean.clarke]

Are Guest Trucks an official Fiat dealer? Did you ask the details of the "over revving" incident/ I would have thought the computer would log the time/date details of the event etc.

 

My next course of action would be to pursue Fiat, if I had not over revved the engine at all there is no way I'd fork out and no way I'd accept the van back without a challenge.

 

But get all the info and facts down first,

 

Just my 2'c worth

[snowie]

Hi Steve;

I would try to enlist the help of the dealer who sold you the van, and or the manufacturer/converter. Whoever you paid your substantial sum of money to.

In the circumstances that might have been your best bet first call,

good luck

alan b

[sean.clarke]

RogerC - 2013-03-06 9:05 PM

The simple answer is the engine can not be over revved.  There is a rev limiter built into the ecu/software as well as a physical 'stop' on the linkage[./QUOTE]

 

Is that true? I ask as I owned a boat with a very modern computer controlled diesel (it was brand new) and I managed to over rev it with no load - I knocked the throttle and in an instant it hit 5K rpm and by that time i had already rest it's position, so it was a single "blip", but the computer registered it.

 

I know this because I had it serviced a couple of months later and the technician asked about it - he did say it was only registering 0.01% of the time - he could see that 50% of the engine hours was at 2800rpm, 15% at 3000rpm etc. so the info was reasonably detailed.

 

[George Collings]

The Ecu should have cut the fuel. This is one of the worst attacks from flying bull poo in living memory.

 

Cambelts in petrol engines run one hell of a lot faster than a diesel. At a guess the tensioner failed allowing the belt to run slack.

 

The type of damage normally to be expected after a cam belt failure makes a total nonsense of rebuilding the engine to check the extent of the damage.

 

Trading standards might just take an Interest.

[RogerC]

sean.clarke - 2013-03-06 9:11 PM

RogerC - 2013-03-06 9:05 PMThe simple answer is the engine can not be over revved.  There is a rev limiter built into the ecu/software as well as a physical 'stop' on the linkage./QUOTE]Is that true? I ask as I owned a boat with a very modern computer controlled diesel (it was brand new) and I managed to over rev it with no load - I knocked the throttle and in an instant it hit 5K rpm and by that time i had already rest it's position, so it was a single "blip", but the computer registered it.I know this because I had it serviced a couple of months later and the technician asked about it - he did say it was only registering 0.01% of the time - he could see that 50% of the engine hours was at 2800rpm, 15% at 3000rpm etc. so the info was reasonably detailed.

 

I suppose theoretically it is possible but just think about it for a second....If it was that easy to over rev a motor and blow it up just imagine how many blown engines there would be at MoT time?  IMO the people looking at your motor are talking (to invoke Japanese pronunciation of Engrish...) Borrocks.  I assume you have involved the dealership you purchased the MH from?

 

[sean.clarke]

I agree - in theory you "could" hold at max revs and the engine (either ECU or mechanical gubbins) will prevent it flying apart - just trying to explain a possible reason for an alarm on the system.

[Wooie]

sean.clarke - 2013-03-06 9:05 PM

 

Are Guest Trucks an official Fiat dealer? Did you ask the details of the "over revving" incident/ I would have thought the computer would log the time/date details of the event etc.

 

My next course of action would be to pursue Fiat, if I had not over revved the engine at all there is no way I'd fork out and no way I'd accept the van back without a challenge.

 

But get all the info and facts down first,

 

Just my 2'c worth

 

 

 

 

http://www.guesttruckandvan.co.uk/

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve has also posted to the MHF forum

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-137737-11-month-old-fiat-2000-repair-bill.html

 

It would be simple enough to deliberately overrev a diesel engine by driving it in a gear that allowed the motor to attain the maximum speed allowed by the vehicle's ECU and then down-shifting, and I guess you MIGHT do it accidentally by, say, down-shifting from 4th to 1st, but neither of those scenarios tally with Steve decription of what occurred.

 

Fiat X250 Ducato information indicates that the vehicle logs 'overrevving events', but I don't know how such an event is defined or whether each entry is date/time-stamped. There's a Fiat Forum thread (relating to a petrol-engined car)

 

http://www.fiatforum.com/tech-talk/194708-engine-over-revs-logged.html

 

that suggests that events may not be date/time-stamped. However, if Guest Trucks have linked the logged overrevving event shown on their diagnostic equipment with Steve's inability to start his motorhome, thart suggests that each 'event' is date/time-stamped.

 

A GOOGLE-search on "ducato frozen belt" suggests that cam-belt tooth-jumping may happen in very cold-weather if water has entered the engine compartment. Steve's motorhome had been static for 4 weeks and the weather was sub-zero when he attempted to start the vehicle. So the theory has merit and seems much more credible than 'overrevving'.

[George Collings]

Strange to relate I can actually back up Derek's scenario of how to over rev a diesel. About 50 years ago i was sent to Dartmeet in the middleof Dartmoor where a Leyland 5 tonner had broken down at the bottom of a very steep hill. It happily spun over on the starter with no nasty noises but would not start. Slackening an injector pipe showed there was no fuel shortage. I then used that precursor to on OBD (on board diagnostics) called a starting handle. None of the cylinders had any compression. At the roadside I could not come up any breakage that could be the cause. I hitched up the towrope and lugged it to the topof the hill. The snag then was the was no power assistance for the casualties brakes. Recovery was effected by unhitching and going behind and re-hitching to lower the casualty down the numerous hills. It all makes work for the working man to do.

 

When the engine was stripped it was found the split collets that retain the inlet valve springs had jumped out allowing the valves to drop until they touched the pistons. Normally the complete valve would have fallen into the cylinder wrecking the engine but rubber valve stem oil seals had kept the stems inside the guides.

 

The driver had correctly been descending very slowly in bottom gear but had got bored and given just a touch of throttle allowing the engine to overspeed. The reason for only the inlet valves being affected is that inlet valves are a little larger and heavier than exhaust and bounce on the springs first thus shaking the collets out.

 

It could still happen even with electronics in control but with modern brakes seems pretty unlikely.

[Rayjsj]

Very interested in how this 'Pans out' as I have a Fiat ,bought new,(VERY apprehensively!) still under warranty, want to see how 'Good' Fiat are at keeping customers 'Satisfied', with their products. Suspect a lot of other owners are looking to see if Fiat Honour their Warranty. OR NOT ? Ray

[bertieburstner]

OP , "they said the cam belt had “jumped” a tooth, they also said they did not think FIAT would not pay for the repair"

 

before we all go trashing dealers/Fiat (who it seems have not even been contacted yet why don't we see what happens. (lol)

[euroserv]

Steve, I assume your name is Steve?

 

I would first like to correct a couple of inaccuracies and then get on with helping you!

 

The engine CAN over-rev if for instance you were travelling at 50mph and instead of going from 5th gear to 4th, you actually put it in second gear. No rev limiter could prevent that from happening. I am not saying you did this at some time but it is possible. An over rev can also occur when the oil seals on the turbo fail and the engine starts to run on it's own engine oil. This has not happened either but it is the other possible cause of an over-rev.

 

Neither of the above hold any relevance to your situation and I cannot imagine why that over-rev is stored in the ECU but that is not what has happened to you.

 

I was at Ford and Slater in Leicester a couple of weeks ago and they had a Fiat Ducato camper in the workshop and they told me that the cam belt had jumped a couple of teeth. The conclusion that they had come to was that water had leaked onto the cam belt cover and had settled inside on the cam pulley. When the engine was started, the water had frozen and had caused the belt to lift up over the ice and jump the teeth.

 

I had never heard of this before on a Fiat and was surprised. It seems now that this could be a more common occurrence and it bothers me a lot.

 

What was made clear at Ford and Slater was that Fiat Customer Services had been involved and that the repairs were being paid for by Fiat.

 

You absolutely MUST get in touch with Fiat without delay and get them to open a case file. They will then liaise with the dealer and get this sorted out.

 

This problem highlights a couple of very serious design flaws and absolutely is the responsibility of the manufacturer to sort out.

 

The other vehicle that I saw in Leicester was a coachbuilt with the original windscreen and front end and not some modified A Class, if it had been an A class the outcome may have been different because Fiat could have blamed the converter for the water ingress and the customer would have had to go back to them for a claim.

 

First you must speak to Fiat. If that fails you should be talking to the firm that sold the vehicle to you. There is no way on this earth that you should pay a penny for this. A solicitor may be required if you make no progress with the first two avenues.

 

Guest Motors are a good firm but you have to understand that they can only release you from having to pay if Fiat say they will cover it. They are only a service provider and cannot commit Fiat to paying for anything.

 

Keep us posted. I expect there will be many worried owners!

 

Nick

[Mike88]

This in your initial post bothers me:

 

"I have received a report that states they reset the timing issues, still not starting, stripped out the cam, and found broken rockers. The bill is to reassemble the engine, to see if further damage needs repairing!!! "

 

Surely it is madness for the repairer to re-assemble the engine and then to try starting the engine in order to to see if there is further damage. What happens if there is further damage or indeed further damage is caused as a result of attempting to turn a broken engine over? Someone - hopefully Fiat - will then have to pay to strip the engine down again and reassemble it costing even more. The £1800 bill could double. The engine should be stripped down completely as there is a high probability that further damage has occurred.

 

As Nick says you need to register this issue with Fiat as a matter of urgency and not authorise any further work until it is established who pays.

[MrWoo]

Back in the early 80's we had a Bedford 15cwt diesel van at the firm I worked for. When we returned after the Christmas break the driver tried to start, there was a clunk and the engine refused to fire.

It was towed to the local Bedford dealer who diagnosed water had been blown (there had been very bad storms over Christmas) onto the cam belt and had frozen causing the belt to jump a couple of teeth.

[ips]

Excellent reply Nick.

I concurr you "must" contact dealer and fiat asap this is a warranty job, argue the toss and go the legal route if needed. Good luck.

[Guest JudgeMental]

You need to get in touch with Fiat yourself right now.There is enough evidence in this thread alone regards:

 

water ingress = freezing conditions = cam belt jumps = engine damaged

 

Plus as a precedent has been set, as you know that Fiat have taken responsability for at least one other case with similar circumstances, you need to tell them that as well, and explain your next step is a solicitor

[RogerC]

Just to clarify what I meant in my post above....I said the 'simple' answer was no it can not be over revved and I stand by what I said.  Obviously there are circumstances, somewhat extreme circumstances whereby it could happen.  I kept the 'simple' clarification to try and avoid the '5th to 2nd gear' scenario because that is extreme and would probably result in serious damage to other components including clutch and gearbox.  Maybe what I should have said is 'in normal everyday use' it is not possible to over rev the engine, so unless you drive like a world rally car pilot or similar I would suggest the engine was not over revved.

 

Getting Fiat involved is obviously the way to go with this one.  As for replacing the damaged parts and seeing if it 'fires up and runs' IMO that is just asking for more trouble.  It is almost 100% certain that with a jumped cambelt there is damage below the 'head'.

 

[rolandrat]

Which size of Fiat engine is it, also Euro 4 or 5 ? Is your motorhome a coachbuilt or a campervan. Guest have numerous garages.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Am I right or wrong in saying all diesels are over revved at MOT time, there is a warning about the condition of the belt I believe leading one to believe a belt could fail within the tolerance of the rev limit.

 

In this case however it sounds on the face of it as Fiat trying to get out of the warranty period, I'd be in touch with trading standards pronto, what a bloody joke some of these people are once they've had your money. Have I also read somewhere about water getting on to the engine bay on these x250s ?

[Derek Uzzell]

rolandrat - 2013-03-07 2:37 PM

 

Which size of Fiat engine is it, also Euro 4 or 5 ? Is your motorhome a coachbuilt or a campervan. Guest have numerous garages.

 

Based on the MHF thread, Steve's motorhome is an Adria Coral 690SP - a coachbuilt low-profile design. The motor will be the 2.3litre Fiat 'lump', as that's the only one with a cam-belt. Not sure what relevance Euro 4/5 has but, as Euro 5 Ducatos were available in 2011 and Steve's motrhome is 11 months old, it's a fair bet its motor is Euro 5.

[Derek Uzzell]

1footinthegrave - 2013-03-07 2:38 PM

 

Am I right or wrong in saying all diesels are over revved at MOT time...

 

You are wrong.

 

During the MOT test a diesel motor may be revved to its design maximum rpm, but that's quite different to being "overrevved".

 

This was discussed here (where I note you participated)

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/MOT-time-again/30349/#M354165

 

The present situation here (as I understand it from the preceding posts in this thread and the related MHF thread) is that there's no question of Fiat "trying to get out of the warranty period" as Fiat has yet to be officially involved.

 

Guest Trucks, who have been examining the vehicle, has suggested that Fiat MIGHT treat the problem as being outside the warranty's terms and conditions on the basis of an 'overrevving' entry in the vehicle's data-log, but that's just a suggestion. I can't see any point in going ballistic over this until Fiat has been contacted and their reaction has been established.

[stevec195]

Many thanks for all the replies, the motorhome is a Pilote coachbuilt low profile with a 130bhp, 2.3 litre, euro 5 engine.

 

I will be contacting FIAT tomorrow, stating my case and hoping to get the right result, I will keep this forum informed of any developments.

[tonyishuk]

Unlikely that you can over rev a modern engine whilst changing up, but easily done if changing down and selecting the wrong cog as many a race engine can testify.

 

(BTW a Rover K series engine falls to bits at about 11000 rpm, which I think was about 90mph on a short first gear, slotting 3rd would have made a difference ;-(( )

 

Lurking Ice on the cam belt is a worrying aspect, especially for all those M/homers that like skiing.

 

Rgds