poffel Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 HI 1st post Does anyone know if towing with an A frame in Italy is condoned by the local police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Welcome. Well unless you're going an unusual route, I guess you'll want to get there and back via France first, and it is illegal to A-frame tow on any roads in France. As it's also specifically illegal to A-frame tow a vehicle on any roads in Germany, and Spain, and Portugal, my guess is it ain't likely to be legal in Italy. If you use the "search" facility, near the top of the page and just put in "a frame towing" you'll get enough thread-reading to send you to sleep for weeks to come........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Hi Pat - welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums. This is a 2010 MotorHomeFacts forum thread about A-framing in Italy: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-96269-towing-in-italy-on-autostrade-legal.html It doesn't really answer your question but, if it's the case that A-frame towing is illegal just for Italian residents, Italian police may well be happy with tourists doing. Even if Italian law forbids A-frame towing for all motorists driving in that country, Italian police may still condone it for tourists. As far as France is concerned, I'm not convinced that A-frame towing there is illegal for tourists. Received (French) wisdom is that A-frame towing for French residents conflicts with the French Code de la Route, but there seems to be the belief (or an acceptance at least) that this particular argument does not apply to tourists. Either way, it has not affected companies marketing A-frames in France, nor French motorcaravanners from buying them and using them to tow a car. Although I'd say that the chances of a motorcaravanner being prosecuted for A-frame towing in the UK are nil, realistically, the chances of being prosecuted for doing it in France won't be much higher. Although there have been regular reports of A-framing tourists being prosecuted in Spain, I've yet to learn of anyone (French or otherwise) being prosecuted for A-framing in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poffel Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 Hi Derek Thanks for the link. Still undecided,it seems a case of pot luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 HiI think also you should also look at, does your insurance cover you to tow a car with an A Frame with your Motorhome?,Regards Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-13 4:33 PM Hi Pat - welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums. This is a 2010 MotorHomeFacts forum thread about A-framing in Italy: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-96269-towing-in-italy-on-autostrade-legal.html It doesn't really answer your question but, if it's the case that A-frame towing is illegal just for Italian residents, Italian police may well be happy with tourists doing. Even if Italian law forbids A-frame towing for all motorists driving in that country, Italian police may still condone it for tourists. As far as France is concerned, I'm not convinced that A-frame towing there is illegal for tourists. Received (French) wisdom is that A-frame towing for French residents conflicts with the French Code de la Route, but there seems to be the belief (or an acceptance at least) that this particular argument does not apply to tourists. Either way, it has not affected companies marketing A-frames in France, nor French motorcaravanners from buying them and using them to tow a car. Although I'd say that the chances of a motorcaravanner being prosecuted for A-frame towing in the UK are nil, realistically, the chances of being prosecuted for doing it in France won't be much higher. Although there have been regular reports of A-framing tourists being prosecuted in Spain, I've yet to learn of anyone (French or otherwise) being prosecuted for A-framing in France. A chap in the forum thread below (Paul Humphries) reports that he personally was indeed pulled over by the Plod whilst A-framing in France. He was told to unhitch immediately and either obtain a trailer, or use the two vehicles separately; because, as they told him, it is illegal to tow a car using an A-frame on French roads. Seems clear that if he had not obeyed their direct instruction there and then, they would indeed have prosecuted him. http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/153313-Towing-dollies-and-A-frames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poffel Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 Thanks Brendan I have checked with my motorhome insurer Comfort insurance and if the car is insured through them it is covered for towing by A frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 BGD - 2013-03-13 4:52 PM...................A chap in the forum thread below (Paul Humphries) reports that he personally was indeed pulled over by the Plod whilst A-framing in France. He was told to unhitch immediately and either obtain a trailer, or use the two vehicles separately; because, as they told him, it is illegal to tow a car using an A-frame on French roads. Seems clear that if he had not obeyed their direct instruction there and then, they would indeed have prosecuted him. http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/153313-Towing-dollies-and-A-frames It is not the A-frame that is illegal. As in other countries, it is the act of towing a another vehicle that is generally illegal. It doesn't matter whether the means of towing is a rope, a pole, or whatever. Only authorised recovery vehicles may take another vehicle in tow. There are exceptions - but they will not get you off the hook if towing a car behind a motorhome. One exception is where a vehicle has broken down in a dangerous place, or is causing an obstruction, when it may be towed to clear the road. But, only to a place of safety and only to clear the road. Another is where a vehicle is being taken to a garage for repair where it may be towed by using a homologuated tow pole, but not by other means. While being towed it must travel at low speed, with the emergency flashers of both vehicles operating. So far as I am aware that remains the law. The clear concern is that a vehicle on tow is unlikely to have effective braking. A-frames were not contemplated when this rule was drafted, but they do provide some form of braking, and are intended for long distance towing. It seems the French authorities have tacitly recognised this, and are now turning a blind eye. However, this may not be reflected across the whole of France since, once off the more popular tourist routes, the local police may not previously have encountered the device. A keen young officer may, therefore, "pounce". If he does, you are likely to need great diplomacy to persuade him. Technically, he will have the law on his side. The legal presumption, however, remains, AFAIK, against. Probably, you will be OK, but it cannot be guaranteed. For Italy, I don't know. My instinct would be not to, but it is really a matter of how much it would inconvenience you if required to uncouple, and how lucky you feel! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Hi,Ok ,,,fair enough , but do the clearly state your car is insured to be towed by your Motorhome by an A Frame/pole/rope with all four wheels on the ground within the E.U.? (or named countries within the E.U.)Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 BGD - 2013-03-13 4:52 PM Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-13 4:33 PM Hi Pat - welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums. This is a 2010 MotorHomeFacts forum thread about A-framing in Italy: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-96269-towing-in-italy-on-autostrade-legal.html It doesn't really answer your question but, if it's the case that A-frame towing is illegal just for Italian residents, Italian police may well be happy with tourists doing. Even if Italian law forbids A-frame towing for all motorists driving in that country, Italian police may still condone it for tourists. As far as France is concerned, I'm not convinced that A-frame towing there is illegal for tourists. Received (French) wisdom is that A-frame towing for French residents conflicts with the French Code de la Route, but there seems to be the belief (or an acceptance at least) that this particular argument does not apply to tourists. Either way, it has not affected companies marketing A-frames in France, nor French motorcaravanners from buying them and using them to tow a car. Although I'd say that the chances of a motorcaravanner being prosecuted for A-frame towing in the UK are nil, realistically, the chances of being prosecuted for doing it in France won't be much higher. Although there have been regular reports of A-framing tourists being prosecuted in Spain, I've yet to learn of anyone (French or otherwise) being prosecuted for A-framing in France. A chap in the forum thread below (Paul Humphries) reports that he personally was indeed pulled over by the Plod whilst A-framing in France. He was told to unhitch immediately and either obtain a trailer, or use the two vehicles separately; because, as they told him, it is illegal to tow a car using an A-frame on French roads. Seems clear that if he had not obeyed their direct instruction there and then, they would indeed have prosecuted him. http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/153313-Towing-dollies-and-A-frames I've STILL yet to learn of anyone (French or otherwise) being prosecuted for A-framing in France. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-03-13 5:35 PM Only authorised recovery vehicles may take another vehicle in tow. There's the answer ;-) .....................Convert a tow truck into a camper :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-14 9:07 AM BGD - 2013-03-13 4:52 PM Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-13 4:33 PM Hi Pat - welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums. This is a 2010 MotorHomeFacts forum thread about A-framing in Italy: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-96269-towing-in-italy-on-autostrade-legal.html It doesn't really answer your question but, if it's the case that A-frame towing is illegal just for Italian residents, Italian police may well be happy with tourists doing. Even if Italian law forbids A-frame towing for all motorists driving in that country, Italian police may still condone it for tourists. As far as France is concerned, I'm not convinced that A-frame towing there is illegal for tourists. Received (French) wisdom is that A-frame towing for French residents conflicts with the French Code de la Route, but there seems to be the belief (or an acceptance at least) that this particular argument does not apply to tourists. Either way, it has not affected companies marketing A-frames in France, nor French motorcaravanners from buying them and using them to tow a car. Although I'd say that the chances of a motorcaravanner being prosecuted for A-frame towing in the UK are nil, realistically, the chances of being prosecuted for doing it in France won't be much higher. Although there have been regular reports of A-framing tourists being prosecuted in Spain, I've yet to learn of anyone (French or otherwise) being prosecuted for A-framing in France. A chap in the forum thread below (Paul Humphries) reports that he personally was indeed pulled over by the Plod whilst A-framing in France. He was told to unhitch immediately and either obtain a trailer, or use the two vehicles separately; because, as they told him, it is illegal to tow a car using an A-frame on French roads. Seems clear that if he had not obeyed their direct instruction there and then, they would indeed have prosecuted him. http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/153313-Towing-dollies-and-A-frames I've STILL yet to learn of anyone (French or otherwise) being prosecuted for A-framing in France. ;-) Or indeed of being robbed overnight whilst sleeping in a gas attack ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 BGD - 2013-03-14 1:38 PM Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-14 9:07 AM I've STILL yet to learn of anyone (French or otherwise) being prosecuted for A-framing in France. ;-) Or indeed of being robbed overnight whilst sleeping in a gas attack ;-) Not quite the same as, although I've read plenty of reports about people being robbed while sleeping having been anaesthetised by gas-wielding thieves, I've not (yet) read/heard of anyone actually being fined in France for A-framing. Being warned by the French police that A-framing is illegal in France does not mean the practice is illegal there. I recall, many years ago, a letter in "Motor Sport" magazine from a new Toyota sports-car owner who had been ticketed by a policewoman because his vehicle had foglights with orange lenses. He'd contacted Toyota who had, in turn, contacted the relevant police force and told them that either orange or clear lenses were acceptable for car foglights in the UK. The Toyota owner subsequently received a suitably humble apology from the police. I'm not saying that A-framing is legal in France - I'm just less certain than you are that it's illegal. I believe most UK motorcaravanners A-framing in the UK are not complying with the UK's trailer-related regulations, but I'm certain they won't get prosecuted for A-framing here. I'd like to see someone prosecuted for A-framing in France, not because I'm particularly malevolent but, if the matter were taken to court, there'd be a judgement and a resultant legal precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheer lunar-see Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Hi Poffel and welcome, can't help with Italy but can tell you that for the last 2 years I have been towing my Fiat Sciecento on an A frame over here without any problems, even with re-regeristing my motorhome on French plates. You can even buy an A frame here, it is called "systeme Bleu" try looking at www.systemebleu.com it costs more here so am glad I got mine in the U.K.. Good luck and stay lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 There are two UK-based A-frame manufacturers with subsidiaries in France. These are TOWtal http://www.towtal.co.uk/motorhome-a-frames/en-france/introduction/ and Car-a-Tow (that sells A-frames in France under the name “Système Bleu”) http://www.systemebleu.com/ The claim that A-frame towing is illegal un France is predicated on the fact that, within the French Highway Code (Code de la Route) there’s a definition of what combinations of a vehicle and trailer(s) constitute an ‘outfit’. The combination of a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle is not included in this definition and, because of this, it is claimed that such an ‘outfit’ must be illegal under French law. The Système Bleu website has a legal section http://www.systemebleu.com/legislation.php This refers to a 2004 UK Ministry for Transport comment that (under UK Law) a car being towed on an A-frame could be considered a ‘trailer’ and (provided that the car’s braking and lighting systems conformed to UK trailer regulations) A-frame towing could be considered to be legal within the UK. It’s noteworthy, though, that the MfT’s caveats that this was just their opinion as there is no UK legal precedent, and that it was difficult to see how an inertia-braked A-frame could comply with UK trailer-braking regulations, are conveniently ignored. Where the French Code de la Route is concerned, the Système Bleu website says: “In France, some people say that there is no specific mention in the Code de la Route – on the other hand, there is no prohibition. Large four-wheel trailers are found in the Code definitions, and with its motor switched off, brakes and lights conforming to the appropriate trailer regulations, the car itself becomes, in reality, a trailer and can be accepted as such.” The Système Bleu argument for legal A-framing is two-pronged, based on the contention that the practice is legal in the UK (that has a different legal system to France) so must be legal in every other country in Europe, and on the vehicle being towed on an A-frame becoming a ‘trailer’. My own simplistic view is that, if it needs to be argued that a practice is legal, then it probably isn’t. More interesting perhaps (at least where A-frame towing in Italy is concerned) is that the Car-a-Tow website carries this link: http://www.mebsystem.it/?modulo=articolo&id_articolo=316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poffel Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 Thanks for that I am going to France in May with motorhome only so will keep an eye out for A frames . Going to Italy in july and hopefully towing my smart car behind my motormhome ( Bentley Donington) with an A frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 " My own simplistic view is that, if it needs to be argued that a practice is legal, then it probably isn’t. More interesting perhaps (at least where A-frame towing in Italy is concerned) is that the Car-a-Tow website carries this link: http://www.mebsystem.it/?modulo=articolo&id_articolo=316 " Agreed. And the Car-a-Tow website attempt to convince potential buyers that the use of their product in Italy it somehow IS legal by quoting their products compliance with "EU regulation R55" is a total red herring. That regulation covers ONLY the standardisation across the EU of the technical design of the actual tow hitch (the cup that the towing vehicles towball fits into). It has NOTHING whatever to do with any other part of their A-Frame, or indeed about any other part of any trailer anywhere in Europe, neither with respect to its design, nor to its use on a public road.. It would be an interesting test for any potential buyer of these products to ask the Managing Director of the company trying to sell it to you to sign a legal indemnity certificate, drafter by a lawyer, to the effect that they will reimburse all fines and other expenses in the event that a buyer is subsequently stopped, fined, forced to unhitch and continue as two separate vehicles, because the use of their A-frame is illegal in that EU country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Smart-Tow, in their website's FAQ section http://www.smart-tow.com/faqs.htm say: "We have never had one of our Smart-Tow Systems stopped in Europe. We are so confident in the legality of Smart-Tow that, as part of our Extended Warranty, we will pay the Fine*" As far as I'm aware this is the only A-frame towing-system vendor offering to do this, but a) you'd need to purchase and have installed one of their systems and b) you'd need to pay for the 'Extended Warranty'. It's probably a reasonable commercial bet as a unique selling point, as people generally try to avoid getting involved with the police and, as the percentage of A-framers using a Smart-Tow system will be quite small, the chances of one of them being fined will be quite low. Even if Smart-Tow are prepared to pay a fine, they don't offer to argue the case that a fine has been imposed illegally. So, even if you get your money back, you will still have a motoring offence logged against you. While it might be thought that the legal postion in Europe regarding A-frame towing is complicated, other issues that one might reasonably think should be standardised very definitely are not. For anyone with Lolita aspirations, this should be essential reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-15 3:24 PM Smart-Tow, in their website's FAQ section http://www.smart-tow.com/faqs.htm say: "We have never had one of our Smart-Tow Systems stopped in Europe. We are so confident in the legality of Smart-Tow that, as part of our Extended Warranty, we will pay the Fine*" As far as I'm aware this is the only A-frame towing-system vendor offering to do this, but a) you'd need to purchase and have installed one of their systems and b) you'd need to pay for the 'Extended Warranty'. It's probably a reasonable commercial bet as a unique selling point, as people generally try to avoid getting involved with the police and, as the percentage of A-framers using a Smart-Tow system will be quite small, the chances of one of them being fined will be quite low. Even if Smart-Tow are prepared to pay a fine, they don't offer to argue the case that a fine has been imposed illegally. So, even if you get your money back, you will still have a motoring offence logged against you. While it might be thought that the legal postion in Europe regarding A-frame towing is complicated, other issues that one might reasonably think should be standardised very definitely are not. For anyone with Lolita aspirations, this should be essential reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe Their website boast about "we'll pay the fine" is actually utterly meaningless. In fact it's then expressly rendered completely null and void by their actual trading terms and conditions. It's patent nonsense for them to claim that "We've never had one of our Smart-tow systems stopped in Europe". How on Earth could they ever know that? We are all now aware that there have been many, many, (perhaps hundreds by now?), incidents of a-frame towers being stopped and fined, and/or told to de-couple before continuing in various countries across mainland Europe. How can this company possibly boast that not a single one of those incidents involved one of their a-frames. As there are only very few such companies still making/selling them, its actually of course a racing certainty that some of the drivers stopped abroad will have been stopped because they've been illegally using a Smart-Tow a-frame in that country. As an aside, they don't even grasp the substantial difference between "Europe" with "the EU": - "What if I am stopped by Police in the EU and fined?We have never had one of our Smart-Tow Systems stopped in Europe. We are so confident in the legality of Smart-Tow that, as part of our Extended Warranty, we will pay the Fine*" So, is this boast relevant to the whole of the continent of Europe, or only to countries within Europe that are members of the EU? How can Smart-tow pay any such fine from the UK, when it is the DRIVER of the vehicle of the vehicle who is standing by the side of the road in France/Germany/Italy/ Spain/Portugal, being told to cough up the money there and then. It's patently impossible. But then there is the asterisk at the end of this "FAQ", to qualify it, indicating reference to their Trading terms and conditions. And when your read those terms and conditions; you find that actually their FAQ "advert" about paying such a fine is expressly ruled out in the contract between them and the customer anyway. Because their contract terms (and these are what would ACTUALLY govern your purchase of an A-frame from them, not any other pre-contract comments/adverts, purported promises etc) says:- "Any terms or conditions sought to be imposed by either party shall not be incorporated into the Contract and shall have no effect unless agreed to in writing by the other party." And then even more importantly:- "HMB expressly exclude any and all liability for consequential loss howsoever incurred." So in their actual contract terms, Half-Moon Bay Leisure Ltd, trading as "Smart-tow", actually expressly and completely excludes the Company from any obligation for any and all consequential losses incurred by that customer due to their use of the A-frame. Thus, any and all costs to a driver as a result of getting stopped and fined for using their A-frame illegally, then having to hire a trailer or perhaps an extra driver, or any other subsequent costs involved in getting the now two-separate-vehicles home, are actually specifically excluded from any liability by the Company in the business contract which a customer would make with them. The whole thing is in my view a tragically poor and frankly very dubious smoke-and-mirrors attempt to try to convince prospective customers that several things are reality, when in fact a little knowledge and research shows that the opposite of those things is actually legally the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Blimey...can we go down the pub now plse :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazdog6007 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 dont do it its italy,lovely country,food and wine.but italians are ,well,shall we say not the most reliable police force when it comes to us travellers.pretty uniforms,but tend to make the laws as they feel on the day.plus,smileing and grovelling to an italian copper.NEVER! >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I know I've made this point before, but one also needs to take account of the difference between law as applied in UK, and law as generally applied on the continent of Europe. Broadly, unless specifically banned by statute or regulated, we are entitled to do whatever we choose. Thus, because there is no law banning the towing of a car on an A-frame, and no specific regulations governing the practise, we are able to argue that the towed car becomes, in fact, no more than a trailer, when towed. (Though the fact that it has four wheels may result in the practise being banned in UK under proposed new EU trailer legislation). On the continent of Europe, however, the law generally works the other way around and, where something is not legislated for or regulated, it is presumed - if not actually illegal - at least not permissible. Beyond this, there is the more general restriction on towing one road vehicle with another. So, under the "wrong" circumstances, it is quite possible an A-framer may be stopped and instructed to de-couple, or risk a fine. The rather obvious flaws in the argument that a car becomes a trailer when it is being towed are: 1, that its EU standard registration document says it is a car, and 2, that one is obliged to carry the original of the registration document when abroad. In effect, you must have with you the proof that what you are towing is, actually, a car. My final point is the one about vehicle combinations that are legal in one EU state being de facto legal in all others, under the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic 1968, as adopted by the EU. Were there UK legislation or regulation specifically permitting or controlling the use of A-frames on UK roads this argument might be valid. However, there is not, so it is futile, IMO, trying to argue that such devices are legal in UK. They are not. All they are, is not actually illegal. And, for those who think that is the same thing (with apologies to Lewis Carroll), you might as well argue that I see what I eat, is the same as I eat what I see! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikein France Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 hello Poffel I posted a question yesterday about towing with an A-frame in Italy and had severeral hits, and your thread from March popped up. If you have now returned from Italy, I should be very interested to know how you got on kind regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikein France Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 hello Poffel I posted a question yesterday about towing with an A-frame in Italy and had severeral hits, and your thread from March popped up. If you have now returned from Italy, I should be very interested to know how you got on kind regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Hello Poffel and Mikeinfrance Best advice? Either trade in the Motorhome for a car and caravan or get another form of transport to take with you such as motorbike/ scooter or electric bikes. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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