delamination

[carolh]

Today I had a vehicle service and habitation check on our 1996 Elddis - I asked them to check the floor in front of the cooker/sink (it's a rear kitchen) as I thought it was a bit springy! anyhow seems it has all delaminated and the rear wall board is damp from under the worktop down to the floor. Question! How long would it have been wet for so much damage to have occured as we have only owned it for 11 months. Brownhills have quoted 35 hours at £65 per hour! I really don't know what to do. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Carol

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Carol, Sorry to hear of the delaminatiion of the floor area. I had a springy floor on a new camper, which I cured by shimming with wood, the gaps between the chassis cross members and the floor. Yours seems more serious though. Have you considered removing all the kitchen units yourself and revealing the source of water ingress, then treating or repairing yourselves. I know it seems a big job but all the units are usually screwed and not glued together. There are really good adhesive sealants on the market now if you have to replace the polystyrene and and wall boards. Regarding the floor, there are procedures and materials for repairing delaminated floors, and its not impossible to clamp (with wooden boards or battons) either side of the floor once all the kitchen furniture has been removed. Another thought is to cut down the chargeable hours by presenting brownhills with the furniture stripped out, ready for remedial work to be carried out. Will also give you time an access to check the quality of their repair. Regards Terry

[Brian Kirby]

The short answer is that it is impossible to say how long the leak might have existed.  It could be a recent leak, origination during the past winter, say, or it could be a small leak that has existed for much longer.

Delamination, of itself, can be cured by re-bonding the delaminated components back together. 

However, the source of your damp urgently needs investigating.  You need to be able to find where the water is getting in, and, so far as possible, in what quantity.  If you can do this fairly quickly, you'll be able to make some immediate emergency repairs to prevent any further damage/ingress.  This may also help to determine how old the leakage is.  That may give you grounds to claim the 'van was leaking when you got it, and so claim under the warranty.

Could it be getting in through/around a window, or fridge vents?  Check also the rear roof/side cover trims for damage.

In no particular order, questions that occur are:

What is the actual extent of the dampness? 

What is the scope of repair that is envisaged, and what is the extent and nature of the damage? 

Does the wallboard need to be replaced?  Has any of the framing rotted? 

Has any of the floor structure or underside rotted?

If there is rot, the repair will be much more extensive than re-bonding delamination.

Did you buy from Brownhills? 

Do you have a warranty from them or from another seller?

Hope this may be of some help.

[JohnP]

To become delaminated does not necessarily mean that the floor has to get wet. Even dry floors can delaminate. I have seen a few instances of this occuring in tourers especially around the kitchen area. Less so where you sit down. If the floor is made from two pieces of ply with a rigid foam insulation board between them like tourers there is a kit available enabling you to inject an adhesive between the ply sheets. This fills up any gaps and rebonds the ply back to the insulating foam. To achieve this you have to drill holes though the ply to enable the adhesive to be injected and then apply weight (eg bricks) to the floor until the adhesive sets. You will of course have to research the floor construction first to see how it is made. Regarding the wall board. You say that it is wet under the worktop. If this is the case it may not be necessary to match the colour/pattern with the board above the worktop.

[michele]

carol where did you buy it from was it new is it not under what ever insurance/warranty ?

[carolh]

well a sleepless night as you can see! I have made a decision - we will do it ourselves, mind you Charles doesn't know yet as he is fast asleep! But he is a joiner by trade and we have a shed full of of tools and stuff, just got to look out the motorhome manual. I will take photographs as I go along - just to make sure everything goes back as it came out! We bought the mh from Brownhills and paid for a 2 year warranty - but guess what - this is not covered - surprise surprise - the older I get the more cynical I become. As you say where is the water coming from that is the first priority, and being as it has been so dry recently - then it seems like it might be an internal problem. Ok so first job when I get home from work tomorrow night is to plan the action. I was going away this weekend, but not now. So watch this space and expect more questions as i go along - I feel better now I have decided what to do. Carol ps might be able to sleep now 8-)

[Dave Newell]

Hi Carol, A word of caution. I've just finished re-skinning my own 'van (1990 Highwayman) due to water ingress problems. I had to replace about a quarter of the entire 'vans timber framing, remove the old aluminium skin entirely (well all except the luton wrapper panel), bond new aluminium skin on to the entire 'van as well as interior wall boards in the kitchen area (which was the main area of damage. This little lot has taken me 9 months and cost about £2600 for materials (although I have updated some stuff like the hob/sink unit and fitted a new Midi Heki)! Your first job needs to be locating the source of the ingress. Mine was coming in around the chimney from the water heater. I'ts almost impossible to say how long it might have been leaking but you might be surprised at how far away from the damaged area the actual point of ingress is. I'm not trying to scare you but you could be in for a BIG job! D.

[carolh]

Thanks for the warning Dave - but I won't know till I start! After the rain we had in the early hours - if any of that got inside it's going to be pretty wet. So tonight I remove as much as I can and then see. next report later tonight Carol

[docted]

Carol before going to far it may be in your best interest to get a damp meter to check how damp your backboard is. It may be in the interest of a workshop to tell you that the damage is more severe than it actually is (cynical ...Moi?). Carry out your own checks before dismantling you may just be surprised. Floor delamination is not normally caused by damp, although it can be. Delamination repair is straightforward and should not pose any problems for your husband as he is a tradesman provided he follows the instructions on the materials. Good luck Docted

[johnsandywhite]

8-) Finding and fixing the leak should be the priority. Finding where the damp is coming from can be difficult. Leaks can come from below as well as above. I know because I had to fix both. The one's from above are either from roof seams, vents, roof lights, air-cons etc. The ones from below can be from windows, water and waste pipes and believe it or not? From the wheels in wet weather. I have had them all with our first RV a 1988 Coachmen Classic 32ft bought from a dealer with a guarantee. The leaks came later after the guarantee had run out. Here are a few links to help you decide whether to tackle the job yourselves:- http://www.birdsongguitars.com/chinook.htm http://www.picturetrail.com/clubmaxxpch http://ned.bike-nomad.com:8080/Ned/61 Happy fixing. ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]carolh - 2006-07-27 7:53 AM Thanks for the warning Dave - but I won't know till I start! After the rain we had in the early hours - if any of that got inside it's going to be pretty wet. So tonight I remove as much as I can and then see. next report later tonight Carol[/QUOTE]

Carol

I would suggest that you should make finding and stemming the leak your first, and highest, priority.  If necessary, just put gaffer tape over it, to keep any more wet out.  Then have a really thorough look at the site of the ingress and try to work out how long it seems to have been leaking.  Old leaks are likely to show their age with a build up of mould, dirt, corrosion or similar in the vicinity.  If the leak is clearly old you may have some claim against Brownhills, since you may be able to show that they sold you a leaking van.  If you can, track down the previous owner, to see of he/she was aware of any leakage.  You never know!  If you become suspicious, talk to your local Trading Standards bods.

However, if you start dismantling first, and then become convinced they sold you a pup, you'll have destroyed most of the evidence you need for proof.  Photos won't really do that, they could have been taken elsewhere or at another time.  You'll need to present the living, physical, evidence.  True, it's only a slender chance, but better a slender chance that a wasted opportunity.  That way, if all else fails, all you'll have lost is a bit of time rather than a lot of money!

Good luck

[peter.maniac]

Hi I had the floor of my touring caravan delaminate about 10 years ago. It was not caused by damp and delamination in floors of caravans is not uncommon - at least it wasn't in those days (i bought new and it occurred after about 5 years). The floor was repaired by a local caravan dealer whom i used regularly for servicing and they did a great job. There used to be a system you could purchase - holes were bored in floor and a chemical added to harden the foam sandwhich. In my case it was quite bad and they added a frame within the floor. It was still fine when i traded it in (to the same dealer) 2 years later. It might be worth asking around caravan repairers to see what they use these days. Peter

[David Dwight]

Hi Carol, Our last motorhome floor delaminated around the kitchen area. I drilled holes in the floor cut plugs the right size, then used Expanded foam. Use the extension tube on the foam pack. once sprayed in put the plug in straight away. It cost me a few quid for the can of foam from my local hardware shop. We had the motorhome for 5 years after this and it was still good. But first of all fine the point where the water is coming in. Oh and it wont be the obvious place, water travels a long way to the lowest point. We had ingress on the side wall in the toilet compartment, and the back wall, windos no, roof seam no. Top box fixed to roof YES. Got rid of the useless storage space fibre glassed the roof, problem cured. By the way the top box was a waste of space, created win d resitance. Once it was off it gave me an extra 10MPH and savings on fuel. Good luck. David.

[Mel B]

Carol Are you sure the delamination and water ingress isn't covered under your warranty? I think it should be, it's certainly down as being covered in our Gold warranty from Brownhills. What warranty did you get with the van when you bought it - Brownhills should have given you some sort of warranty themselves in any case? Also, contact the previous owners and see if they had any problems - if they did or if Brownhills told them they had (to get it for a cheaper trade in price) then you do have a case against Brownhills for not informing you or rectifying the work that they knew needed doing. When we PXed our campers with Brownhills, both a 9 years old one and a 18 month old one on both occasions they did damp tests so if it was there they would've know about it and I'm sure they would've told the sellers! Lastly, don't assume that the price you have been quoted is correct, shop around, £65.00 an hour is steep and you should be able to get it sorted elsewhere cheaper than that, if, of course, the warranty doesn't cover it. Good luck Mel B

[carolh]

First report! Got home from work and changed into my scruffs. Started taking it all apart, sink out - cupboard doors off. oh yes vinyl up from the floor. Now the weird bit, everything is as dry as a bone to the hand! the wall board at the back is fine, the floor under the cooker is dry and only delaminated for the 1st 4 inches, all ok under the cupboard to the right of the fridge, I undid the fridge retaining screws and drew it forward so's I could feel down the back wall - all dry, the only wetness was because someone 'moi' forgot to drain down the water and when I loosened the jubilee clip on the hose to the cold water tap it leaked! Doh Took up all that thin plasticy floor covering from under the units that is stapled down so I could see the condition of the floor. Yes there were marks where it had been wet at one time - but is is certainly dry now. Yes the floor has delaminated - is is quite spongy right in front of the cooker and fridge and little cupboard to the left of the entrance door. Took off the lower fridge vent on the outside, and under the fridge is fine. to quote the body shops report - wall board soft and rotten. Well I could find none of it. The only place I could not get to is behind the cooker and neither could he! I am not going to remove the fridge - it's beyond me I am afraid - and don't know a friendly corgi installer and am not going to take it 20 miles up the A1 to Brownhills for them to charge me the earth for checking it! Can I get this bonding stuff at B&Q or will I need to go to a more specialist place? No Mel it is not covered by my extended warranty - this is our first motorhome, even though we have owned several new caravans (but not at the same time)- and maybe we didn't didn't ask all the questions we should have - sometimes you don't know the questions to ask! So I lost 6 hours sleep last night - worrying - 35 hrs @ £65 per hour plus parts and vat is a serious amount of money - don't you think?? Charles is going to see if they have a damp meter at work, and if not maybe the local hire shop will. Just to put my mind at rest. Time to scrub my finger nails and cook some dinner, better late than never. Goodnight Michelle (lol)

[Brian Kirby]

Carol

If you're oinly 20 miles from Brownhills, I'd take it back to them as it is, with their report, and ask them to show exactly where is the damp and rotten area they refer to on the report.

It is possible, I suppose, that there is an area where they know, from experience of your make/model of van, damp ingress is a problem and they have been able to find what you cannot.  It is also possible someone just assumed it would be "soft and rotten" on past experience, without looking.  It is just possible your report refers to someone else's van.  Unless there is some other logical explanation, one is rather left wondering if someone might have made it all up to get the work.

Confronting them with the evidence of your examination, that the van is sound, and their report saying that it is not, should at least get a reaction and you may well be able to judge how they came to report the presence of non existant rot.  For a 40 mile return trip I'd think that would be well worthwhile, and might give you the satsifaction of watching someone squirm!  Then you could suggest they put it all back together for you, since it is on the basis of their say so that you have dismantled it

Then, if there is damp you haven't found, and they can point to it, at least you won't then re-assemble everything leaving the damp untreated to continue doing damage.

[carolh]

Brian - yes you are right - this is what I should do! But - I work full time, not got many leave days left - so it's not that simple. I will ring them up today and endeavour to speak to someone, not easy to speak to someone in their service department, the phones are always engaged, they very rarely return calls! Even when you call in you stand or sit there for ages - they need a number system like on the deli counter at tescos :-o I will hire a damp tester though and give it the works. Still got to sort the floor out though. regards Carol

[Dave Newell]

Hi Carol, It sounds like you might have some good news there after all. A few weeks ago Aldi had a combined damp meter and thermometer for about £10, it gives a percentage readout on aa small digital display. I bought one and it works well, perhaps if you have an Aldi store near you they may still have some in stock as my local store did yesterday. D.

[MikeP]

Hi Carol, Brave stuff you're doing. We had a similar problem with our 1994 Autotrail Cheyenne with the end kitchen. Turned out the water was getting in through the fridge vents, not helpd by the fact that we kept it parked rear on to the prevailing wind & weather, and over enthusiastic use of hosepipe when cleaning it. A couple of covers over the vents (when fridge not in use ad the whole thing dried out. The material for the floor is from:- Apollo Adhesives Ltd, Sandy Way, Arningham Ind Estate, Tamworth , Staffordshire. B77 4DS Tel01827 54281 The product is A8136 Caravan Floor Repair Adhesive. If you give them a call they're very helpful and will tell you your nearest stockist. It's a very thin two part epoxy resin which you inject through holes in the floor skin. The tidyest way is to do it from the underside if you can; drill 9mm holes at 100-150mm centres and inject the freshly mixed adhesive (only mix what you're going to use in about 10 mins) using a 50ml syringe and a lumbar puncture needle (a hypodermic with about 3mm hole!), until the foam inside is soaked. You can do it from the top when the needle is less essential, just gently run the adhesive in. Compress the floor, (jacks & wood panel underneath and housebricks on top. Leave overnight & bingo! Fixed. As belt & braces I fastened a 3x2 batten across the chassis members underneath the area to give some lasting support. Messy but effective, be careful with the mixed adhesive, its a devil to remove if you get it where you don't want it. Best of luck Mike P

[carolh]

thanks for that Mike I rang Apollo, they gave me the telephone number of Leisure Plus - 01889-271692 who are the wholesalers, they gave me 3 local to Grantham telephone numbers - Grantham Caravans - 01476-560599 Donnington Caravans - 01529-421770 Vantage Caravans - 01526-345670 Grantham Caravans don't stock Apollo but stock a product made by Crusader at 24.99 which covers 1m2 Donnington Caravans have the Apollo Adhesive at 50.00 a kit (ouch) Vantage Caravans don't keep it in stock - but will order it. I am collecting a 'moisture meter' his words not mine from Hire station in Grantham this afternoon - 5 pound to me! Handy working for a construction firm - got loads of contacts. Get my 6kg propane from him too at 10.50 a bottle. so now I need to measure the area that is affected. Another question How thick is the floor? there is a drop down vent under the cooker - can i just measure depth from inside that? How deep does one drill the holes? Shall I go with the cheaper option from Grantham Caravans or buy the Apollo product? Has any one used the Crusader? http://www.epoxy-info.co.uk/epoxy_injection_resins.htm someone have a look at this for me and advise as to whether this stuff is appropriate to use as well. opps best get on with some work Carol till later

[michele]

carol Morning ................Ask for a Guy Named Simon Hyde.............. Tell him his favorite customer gave you his name ............... He has been rather genuine with us ...........and every complaint he has at least copied to the service dep as well as the boss...... I know it's not alot but i have no knowledge of all this stuff . Like the others say I would do the 40 mile round journey and ask where the Bloody hell is the wet make them show you....? But On another note according to their guy I have (no water pouring in my van from where they fitted the sat dish) Well I can tell you that I have , I have, I really have, our clothes are soaked. Pace box blown again) Good luck Carol

[Brian Kirby]

Carol

Prepare thoroughly before attack! 

Contact Elddis tech and ask them what is the build up of the floor.  Then get the John Wickersham "Motorcaravan Manual" (I think it is called), which I believe describes various forms of construction and repair.  That will help you understand what may be causing what you describe as "spongy". 

Most likely you have ply over a timber frame with expanded polyethylene (or possibly, but less probably, expanded p.v.c) infill between the timber elements, underdrawn with a further ply sheet (maybe protected with sheet metal) to a total thickness in the region of 30mm.

Probably what has happened is that the top sheet of ply was poorly bonded to the frame initially and has sprung loose.  However, it is possible that the ply itself has delaminated rather than coming asunder from the frame.  In either case the treatment will be much the same.  For both you need an adhesive that will re-bond the ply to the frame, allowing for the presence of the original adhesive, but without dissolving the plastic insulation.

The adhesive needs to be fairly runny (a bit like Unibond) so that it will spread.  Something in a soft squeezy dispenser, with a nozzle you cut to length/width, would be ideal.  This also needs to be waterproof and fairly slow setting: two packs are likely to be too fast curing for you to get everything in place before the set commences.  I'd suggest the thixotropic adhesive on your link simply won't spread adequately, and would build up in gobs and ridges under the ply, to use technical terminology! 

Before you start, check for any services running beneath the floor (cable detector)!  You then carefully drill a hole just through the centre of the delaminated area until you hit air, and immediately stop. 

From this, you'll be able to judge the thickness of what has come loose.  Then drill further small holes, to the same depth, around the edge of the area of delamination.  You inject the adhesive through the centre hole, plug this, and press down at the centre, spreading the pressure out towards the edges until the adhesive exudes from the peripheral holes.  This serves to indicate that the adhesive has spread throughout the damaged area. 

You then need to clean off as much as possible of the excess adhesive (scraper, not damp cloth), and lay a sheet of polyethylene over the whole area.  Over the polyethylene lay a flat spreader sheet of ply, just a bit bigger than the delaminated area, but smaller than the polyethylene sheet, and weight this down so that all the delaminated ply is forced back into contact with its frame etc.  (The polyethylene is to ensure you don't stick the spreader to the floor.  Basically, nothing sticks to polyethylene, so it'll all come away easily.) 

If your exploration indicates the delamination is on the underside rather than the top of the floor (unlikely, but possible) the principle is the same but you must drill down right through to the upper surface of the bottom sheet and then stop.  In this case you'll need unobstructed access to the undersurface, which may mean moving tanks or service runs.  Once the adhesive is injected, you place a spreader under the floor from below and use a jack to force this up until flat and, if the delaminated area has bowed up, another on top, as above, which you weight down to bring the top surface back level.

After it has all set (allow at least 24 hours) all you have to do is clean off the excess glue to give a smooth top surface for the floor covering.

Proprietary repair kits will in any case provide instructions along the above lines.

Hope this helps

[MikeP]

Hi Carol, The thixotropic material on the website will be far too thick, the Apollo stuff is almost as runny as water so that it can penetrate all the voids. My case of delamination was so bad that the polystyrene in the floor sandwich was breaking down into its original beads, nevertheless the resin stuck them back together again. The price of £50 seems a bit steep, mine was £24 from Barrons near Carlisle 2 years ago so I think someone's going for the big mark-up. If the other material at £24.99 is used by the caravan firm for delam floors in caravans it should be OK for your application. The two part substance is OK to use and only sets after a few hours when applied. The caveat about not mixing too much at one go is that when these catalysed products are mixed they will generate an amount of heat if in bulk (no problem if spread out) this accelerates the reaction and you can finish up with a very hot pot of solid epoxy! Mike P ps your local vet's surgery should be able to supply syringes of the right size. pps I'll have a pint of whatever Michelle drinks!

[michele]

I look good EH................. (lol)

[docted]

Caro; I bet you are glad you checked for the damp back wall before taking it apart (cynical Moi?). As I said previously the delamination repaier should be straightforward. When I did a caravan floor 15+ years ago the materials were expensive and hard to get, the advice to pressurise from both sides is the key element to let the adhesive get to grips with weak areas. Good luck and let us all know how it goes Docted