delamination

[carolh]

nexy installment found soft and rotten! behind cooker - from floor level up to about 12 inches. Screwed fridge back in cause we have an appointment at Tanvic for two new tyres. Thought - I will get under the van and have a look see. Chocked the wheels, put it in 1st - laid the carpet runner and down I went - well I felt so sick (claustraphobia??) I don't know, there I was - the spare wheel 4 inches above my head and me trying to hold on to reality - when I turned my head sideways and I could see out I was ok!! anyhow enough of that! while I was down there - I found fungus - old old fungus - petrified fungus infact, under the rear skirt at the join with the floor - must have been there for donkeys years - whoever owned our mh before us must have had a long term water leak on the pipe to the shower which had been rectifed, but it caused the wall board to deteriorate - to look at it it's fine! But hardboard is not very robust is it? the delaminated area I guess has not been caused by damp, but just by use! Going to pick up the damp tester while tanvic fit the new tyres and then do a comprehensive check. then measure the area that needs attention and see how much adhesive I need. ta ta for now - off to Tanvic carol

[Brian Kirby]

Carol

You'll have to go back to Brownhills.  I think they should have inspected the vehicle before you bought and should have rectified that kind of rot before they put it up for sale.  If the rot was behind the cooker, and you couldn't see it, how the hell could they?

Beware: the fungus you can see has grown by consuming timber.  I'm pressed for time at present but you have rotten framework somewhere at the rear, and fixing the delamination without addressing the rot won't work.  I suspect you have a partially rotten floor, and not delamination.

You're talking time and/or money to fix that.  Brownhills have a responsibility somewhere, you may need Trading Standards assistance but look bace to Dave's comments above re the cost of his repairs. 

If you attack it first, you'll loose any comeback you may have against Brownhills!

[michele]

carol are you back yet what has happened ?

[Mel B]

Carole If you do nothing else, TAKE SOME PHOTOS before you do any repairs etc. that way if you decide to question Brownhills about their overexaggeration of the extent of the damage in the future you can show the actual damage to them. I still feel they have been somewhat negligent in this though, especially from what you say about the fungus. Don't sniff the fumes of the adhesive otherwise you'll end up like Michele!!! (sorry Michele ... only kidding!).

[Brian Kirby]

Carol

Bit more time now, so more time to think.

Brownhills quoted you 35 hrs @ £65 per hour.  Doubtless + VAT.  That is 4 man-weeks work and, at their rates, will total around £2,700 inc VAT.  As I said, a lot of money.

It shouldn't take anything like 4 man-weeks continuous work to fix a delaminated floor.  Brownhills know they have a big job to do, and have allowed for it.

Ask them for a breakdown of the work required to account for the quoted 35 manhours.  Unless they just pulled 35 hours out of the air, which I doubt, I think you'll then discover the true extent, and nature, of the problem.

They'd have to dismantle the rear of your van, insert new framing, new flooring ply + floorcovering, new insulation, new wallboard and probably a new external skin, and then put all your fittings and finishes back.  Now that might well take about 4 man-weeks. 

It can't be done in the open, only inside under cover.  DIY evenings and weekends really won't be on: once you start, you won't get an use from your 'van 'till next summer.  Brownhills may, or may not, be slow workers, but 35 hours will be a good guide as to how long the job might take.

So, why would they tell you it's delamination, when the more probable truth is that it is a rotten floor and possibly rear wall?  Well, it seems to me you'd probably have turned round and asked them why they didn't inspect the van properly before selling it, and why you should be expected to pay to remedy rot they should have spotted and rectified, or declared, before sale.  Delamination, on the other hand could happen at any time, to anyone.  It'd be your bad luck, and they wouldn't be liable.  However, it doesn't take 35 manhours to fix!  I think Trading Standards really should be your next port of call!

[michele]

glue pills gas it all help's in my job I dont mind......

[MikeP]

Carol, Just a thought, Brownhills' advertising guff says they do a hundred and odd point mechanical check and a hundred and odd point habitation check before any pre-owned vehicle leaves the premises. Might be intetresting to ask for a signed off copy since they should still have it on file. Mike P

[carolh]

Well - got the tyres, cooked the tea, had a bath etc. then went out to check for damp. the floor is fine every where average of 10/12 % all over. and underneath. Damp - approx 6 inches above the floor to 6inches below the work surface in the back wall board 28-40% which I suppose is high. So plan of action do the floor - get the adhesive tomorrow - and do the biz on Sunday. Contact Brownhills re fossilised fungus under the van and other points as I see fit and see what happens. Bottom line is - Charles and I don't have the time to do anything about the damp in the wall board at this point in time. But we will keep a close eye on it. and measure the moisture regularly. I will ask Brownhills to see a copy of their 100 plus point pre delivery habitation check. onward and upward, and if I had any pills I would take them :-> but the brandy will just have to do for now. good night every one. Carol

[michele]

Goodnight Carol , Dont let them fob you off

[carolh]

Brian and everyone - thanks for the very comprehensive replies and help to my prdicament. I too have more time to sit and think now. The estimate from Brownhils was comprehensive, it itemised what needed doing - which is what lead me to believe we could do it ourselves. And I still beleive we can, but we have not got a lot of time left before we go away to France at the end of August, and we have got enougth to do between now and then. and my attitude (rightly or wrongly) is that another month or so isn't going to make a lot of difference and if it does well - so be it. What is confusing is that the floor is fine (except for the delamination) - even where it joins with the back wallboard. I would have expected it to have a higher moisture reading than 12/14 when touching something which is 28/40. so we will cut a hole in the wallboard, and have a look see behind it! might not like what I see - but would rather know. There is a cross member that goes from side to side - the bike rack is fixed to it - we will aim for that. Well anothe day calls - and I have to go out and spend some more money. take care everyone have a good one! carol

[Dave Newell]

Hi Carol, I can accept your reasoning as it's pretty much what I did but I would urge you to look closely to find the point (or points) of ingress. I knew we had a damp problem with our 'van and planned to fix it over winter but last year at York we had rain dripping from the kitchen ceiling which kind of changed my plans for me. When I stripped the 'van down I found the main point of ingress was around the boiler chimney and the amount of damage was scary. The entire kitchen wall was rotten from top to bottom, every stick of the frame. Thwe only cross member in the roof runs right past the boiler chimney and this was rotted away for three quarters of the 'vans width. I'm not trying to scare you here but you're probably better off expecting the worst, that way things can only get better. Also check the aluminium skin because the wet and rotting timber frame members release chemicals that can eat through the ally leaving tiny pin holes where more water can get in. Regards, D.

[michele]

carol, trying to have serious head on now although it is early. If you attempt this before your Holiday's and it is rather a large job (ie) not knowing what you will find ... Might you not be left with a very large disapointment when you (if the worst comes to the worst ) are not able to holiday ... I would be extremley upset, I know you must both be anyway Only seems bad enough what you are going through .. Probably silly of me but can it not wait in the dry weather until after summer hol's ? *-)

[JohnP]

Reference your moisture readings. In order that any wood-destroying fungus can develop, all of the following must be present. a. Food material i.e. wood in a wet or damp state (above 20% moisture content). b. Suitable temperature ranging from just above freezing to about blood beat. c. Succifient oxygen in the air for respiration of the spores. Your main problem is (a) and the source of moisture needs eradicating a.s.a.p. because you have no control over (b) or (c) Dry rot (Merulius Lacrymans) is so called because the affected wood ultimately becomes dry and powdery, loses its strength and becomes light in weight. When actively growing in still humid air, the fungus forms into soft white cushions or tassel like stalactites. In drier conditions the growth is a grey-white skin on the surface of the wood. Cutting out the decay should be done carefully. All decayed wood and sound wood for at least a foot on either side should be cut out. All debris must be burned. Any tools used should be wiped with a wood preservative after use to prevent the spores from spreading. Treat the area with a wood preservative once it has dried out. To aid air circulation I would suggest that you put a few ventilation holes (available in plastic from your van dealer) at different levels in the back board before reinstalling. This will help any residual moisture to escape. Sorry for the timber technology lesson, I hope you find it useful.

[carolh]

John Knowledge is never wasted, when you stop learning - time to sit in a chair and give up (!) thank you for the info I appreciate it I have been and bought the Apollo Adhesive - got the dowels -but have been unable to get a syringe - tried all the chemists in Grantham - they heve the 5ml ones for dispensing Calpol etc, but nothing bigger. Went to the vets - they wouldn't sell me one unless I registered a pet!! thought about going and buying a hamster or a budgie, but thought it was a bit OTT (lol) so compromise! hmmm - ended up with parazone non spill bleach bottles - they have a valve in the top - will practice with water first see if that works - if not maybe I can add an extension of very small bore plastic pipe and squeeze the stuff though that. Bought the stuff from Donnington Caravan - about 12miles from Grantham on the A52 - he was very helpfull. Habitation service on a motorhome 85 pounds plus vat. Better than the 199.00 I paid on Tuesday don't you think - he is corgri registered too, so will check the fridge and cooker if I need to remove them. He also explained about using the sealant - and also more importantly informed me that with a moisture reading of 40% - then the chances are that a year ago the reading would have been 20% and in need of attention then! The letter to Brownhills is taking shape. Au Revoir - A bien tot cup of tea calls Carol

[JohnP]

Carol You can buy a new/ empty squeezy bottle with a longish spout from a hardware store and use that. If you are tempted to use a bottle which has contained another substance eg. liquid soap ensure that it is well washed out and dried. A lot of modern adhesives don't take kindly to even small quantities of soap, grease, oil and many chemicals. They can cause the glue line to fail or even not set. So take care.

[MikeP]

Hi Carol, Syringes: Look up Laboratory suppliers in your Yellow Pages you might get lucky, or even try the Pathology Lab at your local hospital. Mike P

[carolh]

yes - thanks John I will be carefull. Slight change of plan - have done my letter to Brownhills and I am quite proud of it - so won't start on the floor till I hear from them, the ball is in their court now. They have got till Wednesday. E-mailed to their Technical service Advisor and copied via post to the Service Manager and the salesman who sold me the vehicle. Watch this space ;-) Out to the post box when I have finished my cup of tea.

[JohnP]

I do not agree with your mans statement that if it read 20% moisture content a year ago it was in need of attention then. If a reading was taken now (hot summer) it would probably be as low as 12 - 14%. If the reading was taken in the winter the same timber may read 20%. This is because timber is hydroscopic and is continually taking in or losing moisture from/to the surrounding atmosphere. Natural air seasoned timber is considered dry at 20% moisture content. Kiln dried timber varies from 9 to 14%. However, this will increase to 20% in the winter if it is not subjected to heat, even if it has been kiln dried.. The increase in moisture content causes timber to swell. That's why your back door sticks in the winter. Here endeth the second lecture. You can now go out to play and have a bottle of milk. At least you did when I went to school.

[michele]

Carol would you like a 50ml syringe I can post to help if you like send address to private e mail....you are most welcome

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]carolh - 2006-07-29 12:06 PM .......He also explained about using the sealant - and also more importantly informed me that with a moisture reading of 40% - then the chances are that a year ago the reading would have been 20% and in need of attention then! The letter to Brownhills is taking shape. Au Revoir - A bien tot cup of tea calls Carol[/QUOTE]

Carol

Re moisture contents: two things.

1 The meter only takes a "snapshot" of the moisture content of what it contacts.  It gives a general indication, but no more.  Moisture contents elsewhere can, therefore, be higher or lower.

2 As there must be presumed to be some leakage from outside, the recorded moisture content will vary depending on when it last rained, and how much.  Moisture content will, indeed, vary on average summer to winter, but that variation will take place even in the absence of a leak.  With a leak, locally you will have very high readings up to 100% when it rains, whereas elsewhere the reading at the same time may well be 20%.  However, after several days with no further rain, whereas you will loose the 100% reading your other readings will rise, as the water migrates around through the wood.

The problem with all forms of caravan construction is that you have a closed void (containing the insulation and framing) between the inner and outer skins.  Once wet gets into that void it can only get out by evaporating off through the inner wall lining.  (The aluminium/glass fibre sheet outer skins being, to all intents and purposes, 100% vapour proof.)  These often have a vinyl coating which acts as a partial vapour barrier, so that the rate of moisture loss is very slow.  This means that entrapped moisture remains in place for a very long time, creating the ideal conditions for fungal rot spores to germinate and grow.  A bit more leakage tops up the moisture supply far faster than it evaporates away.  Whatever you do by way of repair will therefore be completely wasted unless you stem the inflow of moisture. 

First priority, therefore, turn off the water!

Any new wood, in the presence of residual moisture and with an existing leak, will be prey to attack: it will merely feed the fungus.  All new timber inserted must therefore be vacuum preservative treated, not just dipped/brushed and, whenever you cut the treated timber to size, the cut ends should be stood in preservative overnight before insertion into the 'van.  This new timber is going into a very hostile environment! 

Re your floor, I'm not so sure.  It may have tested dry, but it is under the van, so sheltered from most rain.  However, in winter, with high rainfall and higher humidity generally, the leaking back wall would, logically, get that much wetter.  The water in the rear wall will migrate down to the bottom of the wall (gravity and all that), but then go where?  In assembly, floors usually go in first, then the the furniture, then the external walls and lastly the roof.  The walls, in all probability, sit directly on, and are supported by, the floor.  I would therefore expect and excess water oozing from within the wall cavity to go straight onto, and thus into, the floor.  You've said the floor is spongy, which is presumed to be delamination.  However, it is surely just as likely that the same rot, the fruiting body of which you found underneath the floor at the rear, has eaten out the floor framing, leaving just a sandwich of powdery "joist" remains and insulation, enclosed between two sheets of ply.  This, too would be "spongy" to walk on.  The ply would be likely to resist the rot bacause of the resin adhesives used in its construction, so could well appear sound and dry while any wood beneath it has virtually gone.  I do still think you should get the van to Brownhills before you attack it. 

If you start and can't finish, because the job becomes more complex and extensive than you anticipate, you won't be going to France anyway.  I know that sounds hard but I think, in the absence of full investigation of the extent of damage, it is realistic.

I also think you should consult Trading Standards, unless you have already done so.  Perhaps focus more on the present liability called your van, and a bit less on the fun called France!

With apologies for the impertinance!

[carolh]

Brian I accept your apologies for the 'impertinance' but it wasn't really was it just constructive comments :-S which I appreciate you taking the time and effort to give me as much information as possible. I have noted everything you say, the floor is only spongy/springy in front of the cooker and sink/fridge. So to be honest the delamination is down to fair wear and tear on the only bit of floor that you have to walk on to do everything *-) We have a rear kitchen and toilt/shower compartment. I am sure you are familiar with the arrangement. The floor only reads 12 right up next to the soft rear wall board. I suspect the water is coming in either through the bottom bike rack attachment to the van, or the panel join just above the lower fridge vent. I have put a strip of duck tape along this. Until I hear from Brownhills - have given them till Wednesday to reply, I will do nothing. we will just wait and see. Carol

[Brian Kirby]

Carol

Good luck.  I hope it all turns out well in the end.  I'm sure you'll let us know in due course, but I'd still try to find the time for a word with Trading Standards.  I simply don't know where you stand with a used van, but it seems iniquitous to me that, having sold you the thing 11 months back, Brownhills should wash their hands of all liability for the defect and seek to land you with the full bill for repair.

After all, if they could find that much trouble when they did a simple habitation check, they should have spotted it when they checked it before buying it in, and if they did the detailed check they claim to have done before selling it on they should have seen it then.  They've had two bites at the cherry and, as experts, they should have picked that up before landing you with the problem.  Dry rot, and I suspect that is exactly what it is, doesn't develop that quickly.  Try sniffing around, it smells a bit like boiling cabbage, and should be quite noticeable inside the closed up van.

Still, I'm glad you'll give them the chance to make amends, or at least offer some redress.  

Incidentally, I realise I crossed my man hours with my man-weeks above - apologies.  However, the fact remains that rectifying delamination to the area of floor you describe shouldn't take one man one full week to repair: that means working on nothing other than your van 09:00 to 17:00 for five days.

[michele]

on way .............

[carolh]

Thanks Michele you are a star - *

[michele]

Only hope the stuff your using does not eat it away...only sorry I sent them back prior to your thread.. :-(