John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 8:02 AM So I'm right then ;-)...............the only way to stop them is to leave the EU and reinstate our borders :D Well, that is ONE way but it is certainly not what I was saying I really am beginning to doubt whether you ever read what others post! (lol) And remember, in or out of the EU we will still be saddled with a choice between the same total incompetents to rule over us!
Guest pelmetman Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 John 47 - 2013-03-22 8:09 AM pelmetman - 2013-03-22 8:02 AM So I'm right then ;-)...............the only way to stop them is to leave the EU and reinstate our borders :D Well, that is ONE way but it is certainly not what I was saying. I really am beginning to doubt whether you ever read what others post! (lol) I did read what you wrote John ;-)...............and I agree our politicians are unlikely to have the wit or the ability to do it successfully *-)............so the best answer is to leave......and save ourselves a few billion in the process B-)
John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 8:13 AM John 47 - 2013-03-22 8:09 AM pelmetman - 2013-03-22 8:02 AM So I'm right then ;-)...............the only way to stop them is to leave the EU and reinstate our borders :D Well, that is ONE way but it is certainly not what I was saying. I really am beginning to doubt whether you ever read what others post! (lol) I did read what you wrote John ;-)...............and I agree our politicians are unlikely to have the wit or the ability to do it successfully *-)............so the best answer is to leave......and save ourselves a few billion in the process B-) OK. I know some people are in favour of leaving but, as I think you know, I believe that the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. If the idiot Cameron wins the next election, no doubt we will have the opportunity to debate this at length. But as far as immigration is concerned, the fact is that a government that had some sense could limit it more effectively now - even from within the EU. I mentioned earlier the fact that some member states limit stays for anybody without a job to go to. Others set a minimum cash balance that incomers must have before they can stay more than just for a holiday. Others set limits to do with qualifications (doctors yes, unskilled workers no etc). I am not passing any value judgement on any of those limits but they do exist and could be applied. I can't help feeling that our rulers wouldn't have the wit to do any better whether we were in or out of the EU. Remember, we are not part of Shengen and so have similar border controls now to those we would have as non-members. It doesn't seem to stop the illegals now so I can't see why anybody would think it would stop them in future!
Guest pelmetman Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 John 47 - 2013-03-22 8:30 AM pelmetman - 2013-03-22 8:13 AM John 47 - 2013-03-22 8:09 AM pelmetman - 2013-03-22 8:02 AM So I'm right then ;-)...............the only way to stop them is to leave the EU and reinstate our borders :D Well, that is ONE way but it is certainly not what I was saying. I really am beginning to doubt whether you ever read what others post! (lol) I did read what you wrote John ;-)...............and I agree our politicians are unlikely to have the wit or the ability to do it successfully *-)............so the best answer is to leave......and save ourselves a few billion in the process B-) OK. I know some people are in favour of leaving but, as I think you know, I believe that the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. If the idiot Cameron wins the next election, no doubt we will have the opportunity to debate this at length. But as far as immigration is concerned, the fact is that a government that had some sense could limit it more effectively now - even from within the EU. I mentioned earlier the fact that some member states limit stays for anybody without a job to go to. Others set a minimum cash balance that incomers must have before they can stay more than just for a holiday. Others set limits to do with qualifications (doctors yes, unskilled workers no etc). I am not passing any value judgement on any of those limits but they do exist and could be applied. I can't help feeling that our rulers wouldn't have the wit to do any better whether we were in or out of the EU. Remember, we are not part of Shengen and so have similar border controls now to those we would have as non-members. It doesn't seem to stop the illegals now so I can't see why anybody would think it would stop them in future! Its not the illegals that bother me........Its the legals such as 1foot flagged up with the old "Big Issue" con ;-)......... Maybe to the educated classes, the fact that all the low skilled jobs are going to immigrants, proves the education industries propaganda that you need an education to succeed in life...........so along with that cheap polish plumber they're all feeling rather smug about how things are turning out *-) I can't help wondering if they would be so keen to carry on with their moralistic willy waving, if Romanian teachers were flooding into the UK and taking their jobs? >:-)......
John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 10:07 AM Its not the illegals that bother me........Its the legals such as 1foot flagged up with the old "Big Issue" con ;-)......... Maybe to the educated classes, the fact that all the low skilled jobs are going to immigrants, proves the education industries propaganda that you need an education to succeed in life...........so along with that cheap polish plumber they're all feeling rather smug about how things are turning out *-) I can't help wondering if they would be so keen to carry on with their moralistic willy waving, if Romanian teachers were flooding into the UK and taking their jobs? >:-)...... The Big Issue con that you talked about is a crime. There are laws in place to deal with it. Unfortunately, if the will is not there to enforce those laws then it matters not a jot whether we are in or out of the EU. I am not sure what point you are making with the rest of it. I used the skills versus non-skills thing as an example of one way in which it is possible to legally restrict entry. You could use other combinations - and I did say that by listing those examples I was not making a value judgement. As an aside, I don't think the phrase "taking their jobs" advances any cause. The reason Poles are getting jobs as plumbers or Romanians as hospital porters or whatever is because they are in some cases willing to work in jobs that others won't do and in other cases because they are bloody good at it. The lament about "taking our jobs" comes more often than not from idle buggers who wouldn't do those jobs anyway! (and, no, I am not directing that at you).
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 10:07 AM John 47 - 2013-03-22 8:30 AM pelmetman - 2013-03-22 8:13 AM John 47 - 2013-03-22 8:09 AM pelmetman - 2013-03-22 8:02 AM So I'm right then ;-)...............the only way to stop them is to leave the EU and reinstate our borders :D Well, that is ONE way but it is certainly not what I was saying. I really am beginning to doubt whether you ever read what others post! (lol) I did read what you wrote John ;-)...............and I agree our politicians are unlikely to have the wit or the ability to do it successfully *-)............so the best answer is to leave......and save ourselves a few billion in the process B-) OK. I know some people are in favour of leaving but, as I think you know, I believe that the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. If the idiot Cameron wins the next election, no doubt we will have the opportunity to debate this at length. But as far as immigration is concerned, the fact is that a government that had some sense could limit it more effectively now - even from within the EU. I mentioned earlier the fact that some member states limit stays for anybody without a job to go to. Others set a minimum cash balance that incomers must have before they can stay more than just for a holiday. Others set limits to do with qualifications (doctors yes, unskilled workers no etc). I am not passing any value judgement on any of those limits but they do exist and could be applied. I can't help feeling that our rulers wouldn't have the wit to do any better whether we were in or out of the EU. Remember, we are not part of Shengen and so have similar border controls now to those we would have as non-members. It doesn't seem to stop the illegals now so I can't see why anybody would think it would stop them in future! Its not the illegals that bother me........Its the legals such as 1foot flagged up with the old "Big Issue" con ;-)......... Maybe to the educated classes, the fact that all the low skilled jobs are going to immigrants, proves the education industries propaganda that you need an education to succeed in life...........so along with that cheap polish plumber they're all feeling rather smug about how things are turning out *-) I can't help wondering if they would be so keen to carry on with their moralistic willy waving, if Romanian teachers were flooding into the UK and taking their jobs? >:-)...... What you rarely hear about are the unprecedented numbers of highly qualified Brits who have left the UK, my daughter who's husband is at the top of his game in IT working for IBM are considering getting out, as have millions more over the last ten years.There sentiment being they have simply had enough of the UK, I wont expand on their reasons, certain parties will kick off. :D
Guest pelmetman Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 John 47 - 2013-03-22 10:41 AM The Big Issue con that you talked about is a crime. Aaah but its not ;-)...........Its a perfectly legal loophole *-)...........another example of whilst we remain a member of the EU we will have no control over our borders............. >:-( Your quite correct that many of our unemployed are happy to live of benefits than do a days work, but what does that tell us?..........but there are also plenty of low skill people that would like to work, but these low skill jobs have all been taken by Eastern Europeans..........so that means our taxes are being needlessly spent paying for people to be idle...........along with funding Eastern European breeding habits *-)..... Romanian families use Big Issue loophole Romanian families are using the Big Issue to gain access to jobs and benefits in the UK By selling the Big Issue magazine on the streets, vendors could register as 'self-employed' Two years ago Adrian Oprea was living with his family in a ramshackle hut in a Romanian village with only a handful of farm animals to his name. Many of his friends had moved to the UK to start a new life and they urged him to do the same. One thing stood in the way: when his homeland joined the European Union in 2007, Tony Blair’s government had pledged that unskilled migrants from the former Communist country would be restricted from working and claiming benefits in the UK. But Mr Oprea’s friends told him of a loophole. By selling the Big Issue magazine on the streets, he could register as “self-employed” and gain access to benefits and rights to work for his family. Now the 24-year-old immigrant lives in a brand new house in Manchester, with eight of his relatives, with the help of the British taxpayer. Mr Oprea, who agreed to speak and pose for photographs because he is proud of the home he has provided for his family, said: “It’s very hard living in Romania. “There are no jobs, and there’s no money. Everything is very expensive. I couldn’t even afford my own house. “But it is better in England. I could not afford a house like this in Romania. If you find a job here then life is easy.” Back in 2004, when Poland and seven other eastern European countries joined the EU, their citizens were granted the right to live and work freely in Britain. They arrived in unexpected numbers and Labour suffered a backlash from voters. To prevent the same thing happening again, the UK took a tougher line three years later when Romania and Bulgaria became the EU’s newest members. Their citizens would be allowed to travel to Britain but not to work or claim benefits. Mr Oprea left Vrancea, near Bucharest, in August 2009 with his wife, Andreea, 22, and three-year-old son, David. Friends already living in Manchester told them that if they went on to the streets selling the Big Issue in the North magazine, which is intended to provide income for homeless people, then they would gain the right to claim state benefits. They started selling the publication in the city centre. All Big Issue sellers are required to declare themselves self-employed because they buy bundles of the magazine and keep the profits when they sell them. This status entitles them to a National Insurance number and the right to claim welfare payments such as working tax credit and housing support, although not jobseekers allowance. It also grants “dependent” family members the right to work legally in the UK – a right to which Romanian immigrants would not otherwise be entitled. In April last year Mr Oprea was joined in Britain by his sister, Catalina, 26, and her six-year-old son, Valentin. Then in January this year Mr Oprea’s sister, Renata, 30, brother-in-law, Ionut Codrianu, 31, and their two daughters, Alexandra, 11 and Ana-Maria, 5, moved in with them. Since September the extended family have lived in a modern, privately-rented, three-bedroom house in a new development in the Gorton area of Manchester, which has a large Romanian community. The house came kitted out with a new kitchen and carpets. The family have a new television and DVD player, and they own a Peugeot 406 which sits on the drive. Mr and Mrs Codrianu are now selling the Big Issue and have applied for benefits. If they are successful, the entire household is expected to receive just over £200 a week in child benefit and child tax credit – around £10,500 a year. Mr Oprea has also applied for housing benefit to help meet the £600 a month cost of renting the house. Of the five adults in the family, all have applied for benefits apart from Catalina, who does not work. Mr Oprea is the only member of the family who speaks English. He and his wife have now found better jobs – he works as a car wash attendant in Stockport and she works as a part-time cleaner. But he said that his two sisters and his brother-in-law were all “looking for work”, so far unsuccessfully. He added: “I hope that we can have a good life in the UK. I hope that we can all find jobs and that the children can learn English and go to school here. But it will be difficult. I don’t understand why it is so hard for us all to get work.” Mr Oprea’s case is one of many that have angered councillors, who claim that some Romanian immigrants are becoming Big Issue sellers solely to gain benefits and rights to work for their families through the loophole. Many of those who have benefited from the system are members of the Roma gipsy community, also Romanian nationals. Simon Ashley, a Liberal Democrat councillor in Manchester, said some immigrants were selling just a few copies of the magazine each week in order to claim the benefits. “For some people this is not about genuine self-employment,” he said. “Some families are getting more than the average Manchester wage – around £21,000 a year – in benefits. “I think the magazine needs to take some responsibility for this and the loophole should be closed. I don’t see the logic in allowing the family of Big Issue sellers rights to work to which they would otherwise not be entitled.” Founded in London in 1991 by John Bird and Gordon Roddick, the Big Issue now has separate editions in northern England, the south-west, Scotland and Wales. The Big Life Company, which publishes the Big Issue in the North – sold in cities including Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool – says that more than half of the magazine’s vendors are Romanian or Bulgarian, and almost half are Roma. The situation has provoked anger among some British vendors, and tensions have boiled over into confrontation. In 2007, a row over territory led to Romanian thugs threatening to kill a seller of the Big Issue Scotland in Kilmarnock. It was claimed that foreign gangs were buying up the bulk of the magazines and taking the most lucrative pitches. Problems have been reported in other cities including Glasgow and Edinburgh. William Richardson, 43, who is homeless and sells the Big Issue in the North in Manchester, said he had seen the problem worsen. “In the last couple of years the number of Romanians selling the magazine seems to have doubled. In the busy times of year, like Christmas and during the summer, you see them everywhere. “There’s a lot of resentment and anger towards them because we’re on the breadline and they take our business. Things can get very heated.” Caroline Price, director of the Big Life Company, admitted there had been confrontations but said this happened regardless of the ethnicity of the vendors. She added: “We don’t encourage immigrants to register to sell the Big Issue, we help whoever asks. We don’t discriminate. “We see large numbers of them because most are unable to work in this country. Selling the magazine is a very flexible and accessible way to overcome the barriers they face. “Many of them are homeless or living in overcrowded accommodation and we help those who need it. A Home Office spokesman said: “We are determined to protect the interests of the taxpayer and the benefit system from possible abuse. “This government will push for stringent controls on workers from new member states being able to access our labour market.”
nowtelse2do Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 John 47 - 2013-03-22 10:41 AM The lament about "taking our jobs" comes more often than not from idle buggers who wouldn't do those jobs anyway! (and, no, I am not directing that at you). Where I live there are only a few 'foreigners'. One of the main supermarket's are building a new store which will open later this year. 110 jobs going, over 800 have applied, out of a population of abt 15000. Not all 'our' race are idle, infact a lot are desperate for work which shows in the amount of people that have applied for those jobs. The ones that are idle are those that have never worked and its become a lifestyle to them. Dave
nowtelse2do Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 Forgot to add. And their offspring's who know no other way. Dave
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 Is there a single country in the world that has full employment I wonder, or is part of the problem that as a species we have discovered how to produce what we need with far fewer people. ;-)
Guest pelmetman Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-22 2:56 PM Is there a single country in the world that has full employment I wonder, or is part of the problem that as a species we have discovered how to produce what we need with far fewer people. ;-) We have 2.5 million unemployed............and 8 million residents that have English as a second language ;-).......So if we controlled immigration we could have full employment *-)
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 3:06 PM 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-22 2:56 PM Is there a single country in the world that has full employment I wonder, or is part of the problem that as a species we have discovered how to produce what we need with far fewer people. ;-) We have 2.5 million unemployed............and 8 million residents that have English as a second language ;-).......So if we controlled immigration we could have full employment *-) I have no problem with controlling immigration, I hate what MY country is becoming, some multicultural cesspit. >:-(
RogerC Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 donna miller - 2013-03-21 10:01 PMI'm gonna get it in the neck for this but I've got broad shoulders, I'm kinda in agreement with John on his stance, not for any one point in particular , but in general.I'm friendly with and know on a personal basis dozens of 'outlaw' bikers, members of the Hells Angels as well as other full patch members of other bike clubs such as the Outlaws and several of their support clubs. Yes there are bad 'uns amongst them, but there are also dozens of ex/current forces guys who are bikers and are nothing but true gents and pillars of society. But they get tarred with the same brush because of the lifestyle they choose.Now I have said I agree with John's stance on not classing everybody the same and I do, but let's be honest here people, imagine you are parked up on a nice campsite with SWMBO and the 2 grandkids you've agreed to take away for the week when a party of 100 bikers in full gear turn up and set camp, what's your initial reaction?Let's see who's honest enough to answer that truthfully. As a 'biker' for many decades and the owner/rider of 6 bikes I feel pretty well qualified to answer this one........ If their presence did nothing to 'alter' my enjoyment of the site I would be happy to live and let live. If their presence became disruptive and it was obvious negotiation (by myself or warden) was not an option, or was fruitless I would have no option but leave because I/we would be outnumbered and unable to do anything to revert to the calm before their arrival. In terms of this country it is the sheer numbers of immigrants (bikers in the example)that have upset the status quo by their lack of integration and the leaning backwards of the 'wardens' (Government/loony left etc etc) to appease the newcomers. In the foregoing bikers analogy it is them and only them that will occupy the site because their lifestyle would be intolerable to the previous occupants and slowly but surely those that previously used the site would stay away (move out). So yes whereas a 'few' would be acceptable and hopefully accede to the 'norm' of the site too many upset the status quo and 'normality' as it was once known disappears swamped by the lifestyle of the 'immigrants. In a nutshell we have too many 'bikers'......weak 'wardens'....and too many appeasers hence the fabric of our 'camp site' has been irrevocably altered to the detriment of the 'indigenous' campers.
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 What a wonderful summary of where many of us feel we are today. ;-)
Guest pelmetman Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 I fear Roger has just joined us in Bigot corner :D..........
John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 12:31 PM John 47 - 2013-03-22 10:41 AM The Big Issue con that you talked about is a crime. Aaah but its not ;-)...........Its a perfectly legal loophole *-)...........another example of whilst we remain a member of the EU we will have no control over our borders............. >:-( Your quite correct that many of our unemployed are happy to live of benefits than do a days work, but what does that tell us?..........but there are also plenty of low skill people that would like to work, but these low skill jobs have all been taken by Eastern Europeans..........so that means our taxes are being needlessly spent paying for people to be idle...........along with funding Eastern European breeding habits *-)..... As to the Big Issue scam thing - rubbish. It IS a crime. In fact it breaks at least three laws I can think of. As to the low-skilled people who are willing to work but have had their jobs taken by Eastern Europeans - please give specific examples, otherwise this is just a random knee-jerk xenophobic response to a problem that doesn't really exist.
John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-22 3:37 PM I have no problem with controlling immigration, I hate what MY country is becoming, some multicultural cesspit. >:-( And that is why you are a miserable bigot and I am happy to enjoy the wonderful food, music, culture and friendliness of the people who make up the fantastic variety of this wonderful country of ours.
John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 5:48 PM I fear Roger has just joined us in Bigot corner :D.......... On the contrary - he presents a reasoned argument. It is not one that I wholly agree with but I see where he is coming from. A bigot is one who presents an unreasoned point of view and relies on blind prejudice rather than fact to support his view. Roger does not do this - unlike some others I can think of.
Guest pelmetman Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 John 47 - 2013-03-22 6:11 PM As to the Big Issue scam thing - rubbish. It IS a crime. In fact it breaks at least three laws I can think of. So the report from the Telegraph is all lies? 8-)
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 6:34 PM John 47 - 2013-03-22 6:11 PM As to the Big Issue scam thing - rubbish. It IS a crime. In fact it breaks at least three laws I can think of. So the report from the Telegraph is all lies? 8-) You should know by now Dave,challenge a view on here from certain parties and you'll be labelled a miserable bigot, of course they can do that hiding behind the anonymity of the internet,they know they are not risking an instant broken nose, and of course everything is all roses in the UK today in their blinkered view, odd then that all the main political parties are trying to address the issue of immigration at long last, so us miserable bigots have the balance of the argument right now, perhaps that's what irks them so much. . Who knows they may one day come on here and thank us for doing our bit to preserve what is left of the UK we knew and loved. ;-)
John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 6:34 PM John 47 - 2013-03-22 6:11 PM As to the Big Issue scam thing - rubbish. It IS a crime. In fact it breaks at least three laws I can think of. So the report from the Telegraph is all lies? 8-) Don't believe anything you read in the media without supporting evidence. The scam, as described and if it is true, amounts to aggressive begging and extortion - those are both crimes. There are also, if the stories about organised gangs are true, the issues of conspiracy. And I could go on.
John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-03-22 6:53 PM pelmetman - 2013-03-22 6:34 PM John 47 - 2013-03-22 6:11 PM As to the Big Issue scam thing - rubbish. It IS a crime. In fact it breaks at least three laws I can think of. So the report from the Telegraph is all lies? 8-) You should know by now Dave,challenge a view on here from certain parties and you'll be labelled a miserable bigot, of course they can do that hiding behind the anonymity of the internet,they know they are not risking an instant broken nose, and of course everything is all roses in the UK today in their blinkered view, odd then that all the main political parties are trying to address the issue of immigration at long last, so us miserable bigots have the balance of the argument right now, perhaps that's what irks them so much. . Who knows they may one day come on here and thank us for doing our bit to preserve what is left of the UK we knew and loved. ;-) Interesting to note that your answer to anything I ask is to mention violence. Others will draw their own conclusions. And nobody has ever said that everything in England is rosy, nor that immigration should not be addressed. Once again, you cannot answer the question asked so you try to divert things down a side alley that no-one has ever visited. You are a seriously sad individual.
Guest pelmetman Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 This makes interesting reading.........even the Poles are worried about losing out to a new wave of immigration 8-) The town that's had enough: We visit the place with the country's biggest influx of East Europeans Boston's population has grown by more than 15 per cent in a decade Most of that increase is from Eastern Europe By ROBERT HARDMAN PUBLISHED: 23:39, 1 February 2013 | UPDATED: 11:12, 2 February 2013 They’ve stopped mincing their words in these parts. Even the social workers and the worthiest public sector grandees have given up dancing around one of the great taboos of our age and realise that it needs to be addressed head-on. Hence there is little talk of ‘multi-culturalism’ here in Boston, the Lincolnshire cabbage capital. Instead, everyone in this handsome old market town simply talks about ‘immigration’ — none more so, it seems, than the immigrants themselves. For as Britain prepares to open up the workplace and the welfare state to the people of Bulgaria and Romania at the start of next year, none will feel the impact more than all the recent arrivals from Poland, Latvia and Lithuania who have made Boston the most Eastern European town in Britain. The population of Boston in Lincolnshire has grown by more than 15 per cent to 65,000 in a decade, most of that increase being from Eastern European countries like Poland Evidence of the influx of east European immigrants can be seen all around the town. In this picture The Baltic Food Store can be seen next to the Romanian shop and the car parked outside has a Latvian number plate Ziedonis Barbaks, leader of Boston’s substantial Latvian community, points out: ‘The Romanians and Bulgarians will just repeat what happened before. ‘The [employment] agencies and gang-masters will start hiring them, at a lower cost, instead of the Polish and Latvians and Lithuanians. Then what?’ If that happens, Britain could find itself with a new welfare bombshell — supporting all those migrants displaced from the workplace as well as all the indigenous British who are out of it already. Some EU newcomers — no one seems to know how many — have already plugged in to the benefits system (as they can after just three months). Take, for example, the Latvian woman in Boston who has made national news for having ten children and annual welfare receipts of £34,000. She is a rarity, of course, at the extreme end of the spectrum. But many others, for example, claim child benefit for children who do not even live in Britain. Britain is obliged to pay out under European Union law, and the latest figures (only extracted via a parliamentary question) show that the UK already pays child benefit for more than 40,000 children who aren’t actually here. What might that bill be in a year or two? ‘This country is too soft,’ says Ziedonis, 36, a married father-of-two who works alternate shifts with his wife, Vita, in a Boston flower factory. ‘It’s simply crazy that people can come to this country and start claiming benefits. You should have to work for at least five years before you start taking anything.’ No wonder officialdom is refusing to predict how many people are going to pile onto coaches in Bucharest and Sofia with one-way tickets to Britain. The solution? ‘A padlock,’ says Mandy Exley firmly. ‘I’m not kidding. We haven’t got any more jobs.’ Blimey. Mandy is not a finger-wagging emissary from UKIP or a sepia-tinted reactionary. She is the much-respected ‘community cohesion officer’ for the Lincolnshire Community And Voluntary Service. Peter Bedford, leader of the Tory-controlled council in Boston, is proud that the town has the lowest number of empty shops in the East Midlands An Eastern European delicatessen in Boston: Some estimates put the number of immigrants in Boston as high as 10,000 - and that is not including any illegal immigrants who are under the official radar When community cohesion officers start calling for border controls, it is probably time for government ministers to acknowledge there is a big problem. In recent days, Boston has found itself in the national headlines for two reasons. First, the latest census figures showed its population has grown by more than 15 per cent to 65,000 in a decade, most of that increase being from Eastern Europe. That, of course, does not include the legion of migrant workers living five-to-a-room who prefer not to fill in the census forms. According to a leading (Left-leaning) academic, there are an additional 4,000-6,000 migrants in town. The council reckons the figure is more like an additional 10,000. Indeed, the census is so unreliable that the Home Office has just despatched a special population research team. Put another way, if Boston were London, it would be like absorbing (at the very least) an extra 1.3 million people — the entire populations of Glasgow and Edinburgh — in under ten years. But Boston has also become a national talking point thanks to Bostonian Rachel Bull, who was in the audience at a recent recording of BBC1’s Question Time in Lincolnshire. She claimed that the town was a ‘foreign country’ at ‘breaking point’. She was roundly rebuffed by Professor Mary Beard of Cambridge University, who was on the panel. She cited a new council report as proof that immigration was not harming local services (and consequently received some disgusting online abuse for her troubles). But as far as most Bostonians are concerned, Rachel Bull was spot on. She has subsequently become a (very reluctant) local heroine. So I have come to Boston to see what the situation is really like. And I am instantly struck by the Baltic influence — from the Polish supermarkets and Latvian delis to the number of women in those thick padded plastic coats beloved of the old Iron Curtain, to the voices on the street. But I am also surprised by the lack of animosity. True, there is palpable anger among native Bostonians that their town has become a Baltic satellite in next to no time. But it’s not an anger directed at the Eastern Europeans. It’s aimed squarely at the Government and the EU. Lincolnshire’s vast flatlands have always needed people to pick and pack the vegetables and flowers which are the bedrock of the local economy. ****Traditionally, the work was done by students and by part-time workers brought in from urban areas such as Doncaster and Nottingham.**** But in 2004, Britain opened its doors to the new round of EU member nations, while, crucially, not implementing the labour restrictions imposed by other countries such as France and Germany. The result was an influx of large numbers from Poland, Latvia and Lithuania, happy to be paid wages and accept living conditions well below the local norm. For their part, many locals found they could not compete with newcomers prepared to work longer hours while living in accommodation that verged on squalor. As wage levels came down and local workers either moved elsewhere or fell back on the benefits system, so more and more migrants came in to fill the gaps. Some have made Britain their home, starting families and bringing over relatives to join them. Others continue to work all the hours they can, living as cheaply as possible and sending money to families back home. And as long as they have paid National Insurance, they can claim the full range of UK benefits, whether they then continue to work or lose their jobs. After the initial shock to Boston’s education and health sectors from increased numbers, local services have managed to adjust. For example, the local Park Academy primary school, where two-thirds of children do not have English as a first language, is among the best in the county and says it is ‘100 per cent happy’ with the migration situation. But, needless to say, there is resentment, particularly as everyone knows that much of officialdom still errs on the side of political correctness. The local police, for example, insist that migration has had no impact on the crime rate. However, a quick scan of the local paper, the Boston Standard, lists 21 criminals convicted at the magistrates’ court, of which two thirds have names such as Zumbrickij and Kazombiase. Most offences are for drink-driving and other motoring offences. British names, it should be noted, still lead the section for assaults. ‘It can’t go on like this — but we need those the migrant workers,’ says local councillor Elliott Fountain. ‘If they went, this town would just tip over. It would be a ghost town.’ He’s an interesting mix. A member of the arch-Eurosceptic English Democrats (a sort of UKIP for the English) and a local businessman, he has set up several business ventures with the newcomers and also owned Boston’s first Polish food shop. He has been a gangmaster —recruiting local labour for seasonal agricultural work — and also owns various properties in the area which he rents out. But he believes Boston is full to bursting. ‘My son’s school hasn’t got lockers,’ he says. ‘They’ve built up to the rafters and there is no room.’ Last year, there were fears that local tensions might spill over into violence when a protest march through the town was planned. Many locals found they could not compete with newcomers prepared to work longer hours while living in accommodation that verged on squalor, and so feel they are missing out on jobs In the end, there was a compromise of sorts. Boston Borough Council promised a thorough inquiry into the social impact of immigration while the protesters scaled back their march to a ‘static demonstration’ which passed off without incident. The recently published report —the one cited by Professor Beard on Question Time — has been hailed by officialdom as a landmark document. Its tone is upbeat. Its conclusion is that Boston has faced a monumental demographic challenge, that it is coping and that a lot of local complaints are unfounded. It points out that Boston has 10,000 migrant workers and 1,200 jobless. Remove the former, and the latter are hardly going to fill the gap. But it also raises many serious questions far beyond the remit of a borough council. I head for the council offices on West Street — or ‘East Street’ as the locals now call it. The Bombay Brasserie looks like Ye Olde Worlde tearoom in this company. A Romanian shop stands next to a ‘Baltic foodstore’, which is next to an Eastern European beauty parlour, standing next to another ‘Baltic foodstore’. Across the road, is the NV Baltic nightclub. The Latvian bakery does superb pastries. Mrs Bull spoke for many in her Lincolnshire hometown when she said on Question Time that facilities are overstretched because of the influx of workers from overseas Down at the Latvian grocery, Sanda Klavcane, 26, could win a competition for Britain’s smiliest shop assistant. She’s been here for eight years and loves the place, although she admits (in excellent English): ‘It’s very flat — cabbages, cabbages.’ Peter Bedford, leader of the Tory-controlled council, is proud that the town has the lowest number of empty shops in the East Midlands, while other high streets are the usual blend of blanked-out windows and ubiquitous national brands. There was a recent retail vacancy just opposite the town hall when the local Blockbusters went under. It’s now a shiny new Polish supermarket. Boston has even managed to hang on to its branch of Marks & Spencer, unlike other Lincolnshire towns, including near-neighbour Grantham. I am astonished to learn that Margaret Thatcher’s home town has lost its Marks and Sparks. It’s like the cheese industry leaving Cheddar. But Boston’s branch still stands on the pretty marketplace opposite St Botolph’s Church, the cathedral-sized masterpiece known universally as the Boston Stump. Tony Blair recently received an award for allowing so many Poles to come and work in Britain. In his prerecorded video message for the audience at Warsaw's National Opera house, in which he said 'As you know, Poland is a country I admire greatly' Mr Bedford says that the council has worked hard on its social impact report. The leader of the opposition Labour group was appointed to chair the immigration inquiry in order to give it cross-party credibility. However, Mr Bedford is adamant that there must be restrictions on any future arrivals, and acknowledges that the locals have had enough. ‘One of the biggest issues is one of noise,’ he tells me. ‘Boston was always a quiet town and a lot of Eastern Europeans are not, shall we say, used to talking quietly. You walk round town and you hear these loud foreign voices everywhere. ‘You go into the local doctor’s surgery and you have a lot of locals sitting quietly as a loud foreign voice tries to deal with the receptionist. So people think: “They’re taking over”.’ This week we learned that Polish is now Britain’s second language. I stand outside the primary school at home time and canvass a cross-section of parents. Most have a smattering of English, smile politely and just say ‘good school’. As a locally-born father, tyre fitter David Scott, 32, is in a minority. He says he is very happy with the school and that his five-year-old daughter has many Eastern European friends. What concerns him, though, is the next wave of migration. ‘I just feel that things are coming to a head,’ he says. Come nightfall, I walk around town with Mike Gilbert, the Tory councillor in charge of communities. All the voices we hear, in the space of an hour, are speaking another language. Mike has spent his life in social services and regards the immigration issue as a symptom of other difficulties, not a problem in itself. For example, he is particularly worried how Britain’s schools fail to prepare youngsters for the world of work. We mollycoddle school-leavers like an endangered species and give them fistfuls of certificates and then wonder why they won’t take factory jobs.’ He points out how this is different to the upbringing of children in other societies, asking: ‘Why does this country put its own people on the subs’ bench, let others do the work and create an underclass which corrodes the rest of society?’ The immigration inquiry has done little to diminish local anger. The Boston Protest Group, which organised last autumn’s demonstration, is planning similar events in neighbouring towns this year. ‘It’s easy to say that immigrants are just doing jobs which the locals are too lazy to do, but that’s not fair,’ says protest leader, Bob McAuley, 65, a retired businessman and recent UKIP recruit. ‘You try raising a family on £6.20 an hour, paying a mortgage and living next door to a house with ten young guys coming and going day and night.’ He says that nearly all the contributors to the council’s immigration report were on the state payroll and thus had a vested interest in not rocking the boat. ‘This situation is not sustainable. And it’s about to get a lot worse.’ As we stand on the street, Bob bumps into two friends who work for the council. They share his views, but say that if I were to use their names for this article, they would be fired. Bob believes that the best way forward is forthright discussion. While organising protests against immigration, he also sits on the Boston Good Relations Group, along with representatives of the migrant community, such as Ziedonis, whom he likes and respects. ‘We don’t mind the migrants. I blame the damned politicians who have created this problem,’ he says. It seems, for now, that Boston is coming to terms with its recent social upheavals, even if many locals remain unhappy about the way it has happened. The problem is what happens if — or when — this generation of migrants find themselves edged out of work, either by newcomers or as the result of an economic downturn. Will taxpayers be happy to provide a large migrant community with the full range of state benefits — just like the locals they have displaced? One thing which surprises me is the absence of official information. The council accepts it does not know the nationalities of those to whom it gives benefits such as housing and council tax support. The Department for Work and Pensions says that, under the previous government, there was no attempt to record the nationality of people receiving benefits, and that it is only starting to catch up. If the so-called ‘myths’ in this volatile debate are to be addressed, then we will need as much hard data as possible — even it means asking hard questions. As councillor Mike Gilbert observes, things can move fast round here. A few years ago, the council elections delivered a shock landslide majority to a group that wanted a bypass for Boston. ‘If it can happen for a bypass, then who says it won’t happen for an issue that inspires much more extreme opinions?’ According to John47 no one in the UK has lost work to the Eastern Europeans ;-)................well they don't agree with him in Boston :D
John 47 Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-03-22 7:14 PM According to John47 no one in the UK has lost work to the Eastern Europeans ;-)................well they don't agree with him in Boston :D Absolute rubbish - I have never said anything of the kind. But the article you reproduce is very interesting. It is a typical example of the local press trying to stir up trouble where none exists. The article even has to acknowledge that immigrants have not been a problem for the town - indeed probably a boon for the town centre. It also specifically mentions that there is no animosity in the town to immigrants and that the Poles in particular have been welcomed. The reporter was clearly sent out with a task to stir up trouble over the unknown and if you were faced with a "what do you think about the potential flood of Bulgarians?" type question then there is no doubt what the answer would be. The only thing that surprises me about this article is that you have been so willing to swallow it. I think the most telling point in the whole thing is the quote from Mary Beard that they tried to bury in the middle of it.
Guest pelmetman Posted March 22, 2013 Posted March 22, 2013 John 47 - 2013-03-22 7:36 PM pelmetman - 2013-03-22 7:14 PM According to John47 no one in the UK has lost work to the Eastern Europeans ;-)................well they don't agree with him in Boston :D Absolute rubbish - I have never said anything of the kind. "As to the low-skilled people who are willing to work but have had their jobs taken by Eastern Europeans - please give specific examples, otherwise this is just a random knee-jerk xenophobic response to a problem that doesn't really exist." What does ****Traditionally, the work was done by students and by part-time workers brought in from urban areas such as Doncaster and Nottingham.**** mean then? Or........."For their part, many locals found they could not compete with newcomers prepared to work longer hours while living in accommodation that verged on squalor. As wage levels came down and local workers either moved elsewhere or fell back on the benefits system, so more and more migrants came in to fill the gaps. " ??? :-S
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