Remapping a 3 ltr Fiat Ducato Based Motorhome

[Muswell]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-03-24 5:56 PM

 

No great mind-blowing conclusions - the 2.0litre motor (5-speed gearbox) was considered OK for small motorhomes and small panel-van conversions, the 2.3litre (130PS) motor fine for reasonably sized motorhomes and larger PVCs, the 150PS version perfect for bigger motorhomes (which, in France, still means no heavier than 3500kg MTPLM) and, for over-3500kg motorhomes, the 3.0litre motor would be best.

 

My SWB Transit PVC has 140PS and I'm very pleased I paid for the upgrade because it is so relaxing to drive, especially when changing lanes in heavy motorway traffic. I think that if you use your van for general use you need, for comfort, to have the same sort of power to weight ratio as cars; when I had air mass sensor problems on my T4 that was really brought home to me, marooned in the sea of HGVs.

[euroserv]

Hello Campers,

 

Just waded my way through this and would just like to clear up what seems to be a popular misconception.

 

The Fiat Ducato used to be available with the 2.2 PSA/Ford Puma engine up until the arrival of Euro5. The Euro5 replacement for this engine is not being offered in the UK but may pop up on non UK vehicles. For the UK a lower powered 2.3 engine is offered so that the range now consists of 110, 130 and 150hp versions. The main differences will be with the engine mapping and the highest output comes with a variable rate turbo. This does allow more power, but invariably encourages a heavier right foot and considerably increased fuel consumption. The 3.0 engine has increased in power from 160hp at Euro4 to 180hp at Euro5. The extra cost of this engine used to be about £1200 over a 2.3-120hp but is now much more, so it is effectively priced out of the van market. My customers that have replaced 3.0-160 Euro 4's with 2.3-150 Euro 5's are saying that they hardly miss the bigger engine and are getting about 15% better fuel consumption. They seem happy.

 

The question about mapping is a curious one; The manufacturers set the vehicle up to be as fuel efficient as possible while using the worst quality of fuel available in the region. If, as we have in the UK, the fuel is of a high quality, the map can be changed to exploit that without necessarily impacting on fuel economy. If you consider the current Ducato 3.0 Euro5, it has 180hp. The same engine in the Iveco Daily has 205hp. It is all in the mapping. It is therefore reasonable to expect that you can extract another 20 or so hp without causing any ill effects. PSA, Ford, BMW, well let's face it; EVERYONE does this!

 

Finally, I wanted to clear up the relationship between Iveco and Fiat......

 

Fiat owns Iveco; It is their commercial vehicle division, and always has been.

The two main 'families' of engines used in Fiat group products from light commercials to medium goods vehicles are known as Tector (for the trucks) and F1 for the vans. Tector is built as 4 or 6 cylinder for different applications such as road transport, agricultural, marine and industrial generators. The F1 is available as either F1A which is a 2.3 litre and the F1C is a 3.0 litre. The two are available in various power ratings and can be used transversely or longitudinally with the appropriate gearboxes and mountings. The most common uses are in the Fiat Ducato and the Iveco Daily.

All of these engines, along with most of the other Diesels used in Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Chrysler, Jeep, and many Suzuki, Vauhall/Opel,Ford (Ka) and Saab (RIP) cars are produced by Fiat Powertrain Technologies (FPT). The headquarters of FPT are at the Tector plant in Turin and there are several other sites in Italy and globally that produce these engines. FPT is also responsible for producing all Petrol engines destined for Fiat Group products with the exception of Maserati and Ferrari.

 

It is not completely wrong to refer to the 3.0 engine as 'an Iveco' but it is no less or more so than the 2.3 version. Both will normally bear the name Iveco on the cam covers but could just as easily carry the name FPT, which is more correct.

 

I believe that the Tector and F1 series engines are the best in the world, but I would say that; my business depends on them and having watched them being manufactured, and because I designed some of the automated process control machinery in the state of the art factories, I am perhaps a little biased.

 

Nick

 

To the original question, I would offer this...

If you want to extract another 20% power from your engine, I would expect 20% shorter life-span but to be honest; one of my old vans that had been horribly abused but regularly serviced was recently written off at 310,000 miles on a 57 plate. The engine was still excellent though!

I would not worry about it. If you think you need more power; go get it.

[Muswell]

Brilliant post. Thanks.

[Frank McAuley]

Good Afternoon Stalwart

You certainly are the cat's whiskers and what's more you have more than fully answered my question.Thankyou.

 

PS I think I'll forget about remapping - but I had been tinkering with the idea!

[Billggski]

The question is always "if it is that good why don't the manufacturers tune their vehicles that way" and the answer is always "because they are chasing the co2 emissions and mpg figures calculated by the computer that the governments use for tax bands and the showrooms to sell vehicles."

These nonsense figures are easily disproved on the "Honest John" website where owners send in their actual figures. The base Fiat 2.3 vehicle is supposed to do 39.8 mpg with a 3.5 ton load!

I had my Jaguar diesel retuned when I bought it and saw an extra 45 bhp with mpg better than the manufacturer's own figures.

I agree more power could strain the drivetrain, but these are workhorses, designed for commercial (mis) use.

[Mike88]

Frank McAuley - 2013-03-25 3:35 PM

 

Good Afternoon Stalwart

You certainly are the cat's whiskers and what's more you have more than fully answered my question.Thankyou.

 

PS I think I'll forget about remapping - but I had been tinkering with the idea!

 

For the record to call euroserve (Nick) "Stalwart" is like calling you "Regular Visitor". No offence meant but since you have made 172 posts I thought you might as well know the error of your ways.

[Corky 8]

Not the same Beast I know ,but on the 2006 Mercedes Sprinter 2.7 , I had before. I had a Turbotune DT Fitted for economy (chip, insurance informed)  the readings I got were as follows, No Chip Fitted at 2000 RPM,s the speedo read 55,MPH with the Chip Fitted @2000 RPM,s speedo reading was 60 MPH, which must return more MPG, I took it off when I part-ex it , its going to cost £37 +P+P to have it re-set for the 2.2 Merc we have now. and my Insurance company will be informed, and up to now have never charged any extra .

[Steve928]

I'm suprised that a remapping module, that claims only to affect the fuel supply at the injectors, can change the gear ratios too?

 

How can the revs/mph ratio be affected by one of these? A genuine question as I'm confused.

 

Also, lowering the engine revs at a given speed would not necessarily reduce fuel consumption - it's a far more complicated formula than that involving how hard the engine is working and where it is in relation to its peak power outputs, surely?

[Billggski]

Chipping is different from remapping. One is a module that increases the fuel pressure, and can be moved from vehicle to vehicle. The other links a computer to the ecu and changes the factory settings.

Both cost about the same. You can test it before and after on a rolling road which gives you a read out for the power gain, if not mpg. But it costs more.

I wouldn't do it until your warranty has expired, but MH engines do so few miles I wonder if some ever "loosen up" to give full power anyway.

[Derek Uzzell]

Billggski - 2013-12-04 6:13 PM

 

Chipping is different from remapping. One is a module that increases the fuel pressure, and can be moved from vehicle to vehicle. The other links a computer to the ecu and changes the factory settings.

Both cost about the same. You can test it before and after on a rolling road which gives you a read out for the power gain, if not mpg. But it costs more.

I wouldn't do it until your warranty has expired, but MH engines do so few miles I wonder if some ever "loosen up" to give full power anyway.

 

Given that Frank McAuley (who asked about remapping originally) decided over 8 months ago not to proceed with the idea, I find it a mite hard to understand why you suddenly resuscitated this thread.

 

I'd be interested to know what prompted you to revive it.

 

[Colin Leake]

All I can tell you is that I know two drivers who have managed to blow up chipped fiat engines, or more correctly one engine and one turbo. It has to be said that both made full use of the extra power due to the need to cover large distances between race meetings. The 3 ltr engines have plenty of poke so I'd tend to leave well alone. The engine will get better as the milage increases.

[Frank McAuley]

Apologies to euroserve whose contribution was much appreciated. ;-)

[mildi]

tonyishuk - 2013-03-23 5:08 PM

 

Having an IQ3 Auto, I was wondering how you got on towing, any hassles or any advice you could give ?

 

Maybe a 2.3 X250 has not got quite enough ooomph, if you are considering chipping a 3 litre ?

 

Rgds

 

Hi tonyishuk,

I have the 130 2.3 in my MH and have the same set up as Frank, (IQ & BJ trailer with motormover) we spent the last six months around Europe and apart from being a bit slow up some of the steeper hills we found no problems. 3lt would be nice but the 2.3 does the job you just wont win any races!!!

If you are in my neck of the woods and would like to take a look let me know.

Mark.

[Derek Uzzell]

For anyone interested, there's a longish MotorHomeFacts thread (starting in June 2008 and concluding in January 2013) about remapping the 3.0litre Ducato motor.

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-108260-days0-orderasc-0.html

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Considering many couriers are self employed you would think if anyone had an interest in more MPG, and or power they would, perhaps over the Christmas period when many of them are whizzing around it would make an interesting question to ask if they had a chip or a remap when you have a parcel delivered irrespective of the make of van. Having said that assuming an MPG increase if it's true of say 10%.......2/3 mpg how long to get your monies worth back

 

Just an aside my newly aquired 2.8 jtd van has a tow bar..............and also buried in the paper work is a receipt for a full new clutch assembly at 27,000 miles :-(

[Billggski]

Billggski - 2013-12-04 6:13 PM

 

Chipping is different from remapping. One is a module that increases the fuel pressure, and can be moved from vehicle to vehicle. The other links a computer to the ecu and changes the factory settings.

Both cost about the same. You can test it before and after on a rolling road which gives you a read out for the power gain, if not mpg. But it costs more.

I wouldn't do it until your warranty has expired, but MH engines do so few miles I wonder if some ever "loosen up" to give full power anyway.

 

 

Given that Frank McAuley (who asked about remapping originally) decided over 8 months ago not to proceed with the idea, I find it a mite hard to understand why you suddenly resuscitated this thread.

 

I'd be interested to know what prompted you to revive it.

 

Just chipping in.

Apologies.

 

I didn't know there was a time limit on comments.

[tonyishuk]

mildi - 2013-12-04 7:51 PM

 

tonyishuk - 2013-03-23 5:08 PM

 

Having an IQ3 Auto, I was wondering how you got on towing, any hassles or any advice you could give ?

 

Maybe a 2.3 X250 has not got quite enough ooomph, if you are considering chipping a 3 litre ?

 

Rgds

 

Hi tonyishuk,

I have the 130 2.3 in my MH and have the same set up as Frank, (IQ & BJ trailer with motormover) we spent the last six months around Europe and apart from being a bit slow up some of the steeper hills we found no problems. 3lt would be nice but the 2.3 does the job you just wont win any races!!!

If you are in my neck of the woods and would like to take a look let me know.

Mark.

 

Thanks for replying,

 

We have sold the IQ for a number of reasons. Also we purchased some electric bikes, and decided to hire a car when we need one.

 

Not done this abroad yet, but have used CC and Enterprise car hire a couple of times, nice people - lousy time keepers !

 

The navigator and I had half an eye on pending health problems and added stress of trailing, loading and unloading was a little too much or one of us :D

 

I keep to a quite life, and win battles when have to *-)

 

Rgds

[Derek Uzzell]

Billggski - 2013-12-05 6:22 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-04 6:38 PM

 

Billggski - 2013-12-04 6:13 PM

 

Chipping is different from remapping. One is a module that increases the fuel pressure, and can be moved from vehicle to vehicle. The other links a computer to the ecu and changes the factory settings.

Both cost about the same. You can test it before and after on a rolling road which gives you a read out for the power gain, if not mpg. But it costs more.

I wouldn't do it until your warranty has expired, but MH engines do so few miles I wonder if some ever "loosen up" to give full power anyway.

 

Given that Frank McAuley (who asked about remapping originally) decided over 8 months ago not to proceed with the idea, I find it a mite hard to understand why you suddenly resuscitated this thread.

 

I'd be interested to know what prompted you to revive it.

Just chipping in.

Apologies.

 

I didn't know there was a time limit on comments.

 

There is no time limit on comments and, occasionally, threads are revived when a poster has something to add that relates directly to the original topic. But this usually happens when only a relatively short period of time has passed between a thread going quiescent and it being revitalised.

 

This thread went 'dead' in March 2013 and would have been buried over 40 pages deep in the Motorhome Matters forum's historical stuff. It's no big thing that you brought it back to life (though it would be a very peculiar forum indeed if resurrecting and adding comments to ancient material became commonplace) - I was just curious about why you chose to do it.

[Billggski]

The history of the site is a mine of useful information, and a lot of useless stuff as well.

As I used to drive RVs around Europe since the late 80's, usually towing a Mclaren, Lola or Chevron sports car, I thought that, although a newbie to this site, my actual experiences might be useful to those considering a remap. Not just the OP.

My 2.3 is booked in for early next year, I'll keep you informed of the difference.

The RVs used to pump out a mighty 140bhp from 6.3 litres, and up 6mpg towing!

But the sponsors paid for all that.

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-06 9:29 AM

 

Billggski - 2013-12-05 6:22 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-04 6:38 PM

 

Billggski - 2013-12-04 6:13 PM

 

Chipping is different from remapping. One is a module that increases the fuel pressure, and can be moved from vehicle to vehicle. The other links a computer to the ecu and changes the factory settings.

Both cost about the same. You can test it before and after on a rolling road which gives you a read out for the power gain, if not mpg. But it costs more.

I wouldn't do it until your warranty has expired, but MH engines do so few miles I wonder if some ever "loosen up" to give full power anyway.

 

Given that Frank McAuley (who asked about remapping originally) decided over 8 months ago not to proceed with the idea, I find it a mite hard to understand why you suddenly resuscitated this thread.

 

I'd be interested to know what prompted you to revive it.

Just chipping in.

Apologies.

 

I didn't know there was a time limit on comments.

 

There is no time limit on comments and, occasionally, threads are revived when a poster has something to add that relates directly to the original topic. But this usually happens when only a relatively short period of time has passed between a thread going quiescent and it being revitalised.

 

This thread went 'dead' in March 2013 and would have been buried over 40 pages deep in the Motorhome Matters forum's historical stuff. It's no big thing that you brought it back to life (though it would be a very peculiar forum indeed if resurrecting and adding comments to ancient material became commonplace) - I was just curious about why you chose to do it.

 

Apart from the search function, which is a bit clunky to say the least, especially for new users, and one of the frustrations of these forums, the same questions arise time and again, and our fingers are worn to the bone typing the same or similar information all over again. A separate page of sticky threads / topics would be a great leap forward IMO

[Derek Uzzell]

1footinthegrave - 2013-12-06 10:15 AM

 

Apart from the search function, which is a bit clunky to say the least, especially for new users, and one of the frustrations of these forums, the same questions arise time and again, and our fingers are worn to the bone typing the same or similar information all over again. A separate page of sticky threads / topics would be a great leap forward IMO

 

There used to be an FAQ section that disappeared during a major system crash (probably before you joined).

 

Threads relating to a few subjects that were regularly discussed were 'cherry-picked', but no attempt was made to produce FAQ entries that were definitive, nor to update FAQs to correct inaccuracies or reflect changes.

 

The challenges of FAQs are a) Who decides what the Questions should be? b) Who provides the Answers? and c) Who ensures the Answers are accurate, comprehensive and up-to-date?

 

If you'd like to try writing a sample FAQ entry (Pick your own Q and A), I wish you luck.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

No I don't think I'll bother, having too much fun trying to sort my heater out.............but maybe when I have I'll post up a FAQ just for that, I'm fast becoming an expert on it. :D

[derek pringle]

Hi Frank,

We have a Bessacarr 560 [2011] with 3ltr comfortmatic on 4 tonne chassis and we have been up some scary hills and mountains with absolutely no problems, bags of power. On top of this, after doing just over 4000 miles the trip is showing 29.6 mpg. I think it is a great set up and if changing vehicles would want same engine/gearbox type. I considered remapping originally when thinking mpg would be worse but no need on economy front.

good luck

derek

[dawki]

derek pringle - 2013-12-06 12:04 PM

 

Hi Frank,

We have a Bessacarr 560 [2011] with 3ltr comfortmatic on 4 tonne chassis and we have been up some scary hills and mountains with absolutely no problems, bags of power. On top of this, after doing just over 4000 miles the trip is showing 29.6 mpg. I think it is a great set up and if changing vehicles would want same engine/gearbox type. I considered remapping originally when thinking mpg would be worse but no need on economy front.

good luck

derek

 

Any idea what the actual MPG is Derek, rather than what the trip computer is showing

[Frank McAuley]

Hi Derek

Tyou for post. I decided in March to "leave well alone" and since then we have completed a 3 mth trip with no probs. In the original posts to this thread some 8 mths ago I was advised to get some miles on the mhome to allow the engine to perform to its design standard and the difference has been most noticeable. Even with the trailer and iQ there has been "bags" of power with adequate torque throughout the rev range. I would also add that some of the roads we traversed were "testing" for our rig but handling and performance was admirable!

My wife maintained a log re fuel stops compared to distance covered ( mpg!!) and she would maintain we were getting a figure close to yours and who is going to argue with a retired senior mistress?

I think the 3 ltr and the Alko chassis is an excellent combo but the EGR issue has now left me with a heavy right foot ( DPF + EGR issue) so I suppose economy could be improved but possibly that's academic!

When I saw this issue reactivated after such a long time I had to pinch myself but it's good to realise that experience in all issues is most beneificial and this site certainly has it - perhaps not the most tactful at times but it takes all sorts! ;-)