Price of Calor gas

[Roy]

I have just renewed my 6kg propane Calor bottle and was suprised to find that it cost me £13.60. Although I can't remember the price last time I am sure that it has increased considerably. I looked on Calor's web site and they quote £13.99 for the 6kg bottle. The 13kg bottle is listed at £17.49 which gives an extra 7kg for just £3.50. I emailed Calor for an explanation of this strange dfifference in price, and their brief reply tells me that it all down to "undertaking various testing procedures before they are refilled"! Apparently the cost of these procedures is the same for any size cylinder and as it is done more often with smaller cylinders this is reflected in the price?? Seems to me that there is a big penalty for using small cylinders, unfortunately I can only fit the 6/7 size in my locker. Me thinks that LPG is getting to be a rip off, perhaps it is time to look more closely at refillable bottles. Roy

[Mel B]

Roy Mr Wickersham did a piece on calor bottles either end of last year or earlier this year, the point that Calor make, ie the testing etc, is the 'expensive' bit of the refilling process, the gas itself is extremely cheap. I don't know about it getting to be a rip off, the length of time we can go with one 13kg bottle seems extremely long - it does us a nearly a year's motorhoming and we use it quite a bit.

[chas]

After having a third 30mb gas regulator fitted to my van because I am told that the oily substance in Calor gas is the problem, I decided to change to Flowgas, and was lucky enough to find a supplier offering 6kg propane cylinders full for just £10. Has I carry 2 cylinders with me I feel that I will never need to worry about running out of gas in the U.K. before getting a refill, and so far with flowgas the regulator is working fine. Flowgas as bought so many of the other gas suppliers up its distribution network should soon equal Calor and its prices look very keen.

[Derek Uzzell]

Received wisdom is that the "oily substances" that are claimed to stop regulators working are a natural consequence of the processes now being used for LPG production. The adverse effect on leisure-vehicle regulators/gas appliances is internationally known and was highlighted in French magazines a number of years ago. Apparently, propane, butane or autogas can all be affected. Basically, you've as much chance of getting 'dirty' gas from Flogas bottles as from Calor (or from any other commercial gas supplier).

[chas]

Hi Dereck, I was informed by my dealer ( not brownhills) but well known and in buisness over 30 yrs that what I stated is correct, that it only applys to calor gas, and having changed my contaminated calor gas cylinders twice from differant outlets it still ruined the regulators. I was even told that probable legal proceedings may occur between the 2 parties. However the Flowgas I am using, as stated is working fine and in the end thats all I am interested in and a supply cost saving to boot. It is no fun having the regulator let you down without warning , and the thought of having to carry around spare ones and do gas connections in the field on a vehicle still under a warranty is not something I want to get involved in, and could even be illegal under the gas fitting regulations. Lets hope something is sorted out soon as in over 30yrs of vanning I have always had no gas problems. Regards chas

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]chas - 2006-07-31 10:01 PM After having a third 30mb gas regulator fitted to my van because I am told that the oily substance in Calor gas is the problem, I decided to change to Flowgas, and was lucky enough to find a supplier offering 6kg propane cylinders full for just £10. Has I carry 2 cylinders with me I feel that I will never need to worry about running out of gas in the U.K. before getting a refill, and so far with flowgas the regulator is working fine. Flowgas as bought so many of the other gas suppliers up its distribution network should soon equal Calor and its prices look very keen.[/QUOTE] Chas, I have used Calor gas on and off for over 35 years and I've never had a problem. In all that time I've never had to replace a regulator. I've had my refillable bottle now for three years and I've filled up in some out of the way places where the instalation looked a bit rough but never any problems. Is yours an isolated case or is it widespread. Anybody else out there had/got the same problem Don

[Ranger]

Always got my gas from local builders merchant. He switched to Handy Gas, as the builders would not pay Calor prices. Looks like Handy Gas is the same price as Flogas. Is Flogas Shell? Handy Gas is BP. You do not pay a rental on the Handy Gas bottles.

[chas]

Hi Ranger, If you check the web site of Flowgas you will see they have an extensive distribution network, they took over Shell gas along with many other brands.

[Derek Uzzell]

Chas: My Truma 30mbar 'fixed' regulator failed after been run on an exclusive diet of autogas (and primarily French autogas at that), which casts doubt on your knowledgeable dealer's "It's just Calor" argument. When I returned the failed regulator to Myriad Products (from which I had bought it) in May 2006 I requested that Truma tell me why it had stopped working. This was the reply I received from Truma(UK):- "The Truma bulkhead mounted 30mbar regulator system has been in circulation for almost three years now without any quality issues. Recently we have had issues with an oil residue entering the gas system of caravans and motorhomes and damaging the regulators and in some cases damaging the appliances. The Truma regulator is not the only regulator on the market and is therefore not the only system suffering from this issue. At present Truma along with the NCC and major gas suppliers are investigating the situation to find where the source of this contamination comes from. Although the failure of the gas system is due an external source until this investigation is complete Truma will replace any affected regulators free of charge." I responded as follows:- "Thanks for your comments. I have now received a replacement regulator under warranty from Myriad Products. When I inquired about the cause of the fault I was told that Myriad's warranty department had listed it as a 'no flow' problem, but the lady I spoke to had no further details. I asked if other regulators had shown similar symptoms and whether 'oil in the gas' had been offered as an explanation. Apparently a number of Truma regulators with gas-flow problems had been returned to Myriad Products last year and, although at the time oil in the gas had been felt to be the cause, it was now understood that the fault lay with the regulators themselves. I was advised that recently manufactured regulators should be OK. There has been plenty of lively discussion on motorhome internet forums about failed gas regulators. Amongst the comments I've read are suggestions that the failures mostly involve GOK-branded (Truma) regulators, that batches of regulators supplied to major motorhome manufacturers (eg. Auto-Sleepers and Auto-Trail) have all stopped working within a short time, that Truma blame Calor and Calor blame Truma, that Truma won't release the failed regulators to Calor for inspection, etc. etc. etc. Obviously I've no idea how much, if any, of this is factual, but there's certainly a lot of moaning about failed regulators going on among the unhappy victims! I first became aware of the 'oily residues' argument 2 or 3 years ago from a letter in a French motorhome magazine where contaminated gas was blamed for a reader's Truma Combi stopping working (clogged gas-valves). What I do find strange where regulator failures are concerned is that some regulators (like mine) just die, while other identical regulators seem unaffected. Two years ago an acquaintance bought a new Auto-Sleepers motorhome and the original Truma 30mbar regulator stopped working within a week and after no more than 1kg of Calor butane had passed through it. But the identical replacement regulator running (to begin with) from the same gas-bottle was fine and continues to operate perfectly. To me, this sounds more like a regulator-related fault than a gas problem. Recently I read that all LPG (bottled butane or propane, or autogas) now contains traces of oil as a result of the modern production processes employed. I don't know whether this assertion is correct, but if my 'autogas-only-used' regulator stopped working due to oily gas, there seems to be merit in the claim. And, if all LPG is affected to a greater or lesser degree, then discussing the issue with the NCC (or, for that matter, arguing with UK gas suppliers) seems a waste of time to me. What's surely essential is that the potential problem be advertised and recognised and that something be done to combat it at source. This appears to be the emerging strategy in France, where the French gas specialist Borel now markets two different types of gas-filter via caravan accessory outlets. One type is disposable, costs about £95, is fitted on the low-pressure side of the gas system and requires replacement after 600kg-800kg of gas has passed through it. The alternative filter-unit screws directly on to the connector of a traditional French gas-bottle where it protects the complete gas system including the regulator. It costs about £55 and the filter body contains a removable element that should be replaced on a 2-year basis. If oil-in-LPG is essentially unavoidable and not confined to specific countries, then perhaps Truma should consider producing a universal filter that could be fitted between the 30mbar regulator's gas input-point and the high pressure hose. I'd certainly buy one." There has been plenty of past discussion (informed or otherwise) about this on motorhome internet forums, including this one. There is also a piece in the current CC magazine (Page 12 - "Regulator Irregularities") that summarises the current situation. My view is that it's a waste of time analysing this problem based on history. Earlier regulators were much less complex than the current 30mbar crop and (apparently) impervious to muck passing through them. Similarly for the gas-appliances themselves that, even if their burners became 'oiled up', could be cleaned. As I can't envisage gas-production companies being proactive about removing/reducing residues in LPG that have no impact on the majority of gas consumers, this places the onus on appliance/regulator manufacturers to design products that can either tolerate LPG residues or prevent them causing nuisance. And the simplest and most obvious strategy would involve a pre-regulator filter like the one being marketed in France. (In fact, even though I'm unconvinced this problem is exclusively Calor-related, it might be worth motorcaravanners/caravanners taking the stance that it IS a Calor-only problem, switching to an alternative LPG-bottle supplier and writing to Calor to say why they've done this. That should cause at least some sort of stir in the Calor PR department.)

[david lloyd]

[QUOTE]Roy - 2006-07-31 4:18 PM I have just renewed my 6kg propane Calor bottle and was suprised to find that it cost me £13.60. Although I can't remember the price last time I am sure that it has increased considerably. I looked on Calor's web site and they quote £13.99 for the 6kg bottle. The 13kg bottle is listed at £17.49 which gives an extra 7kg for just £3.50. I emailed Calor for an explanation of this strange dfifference in price, and their brief reply tells me that it all down to "undertaking various testing procedures before they are refilled"! Apparently the cost of these procedures is the same for any size cylinder and as it is done more often with smaller cylinders this is reflected in the price?? Seems to me that there is a big penalty for using small cylinders, unfortunately I can only fit the 6/7 size in my locker. Me thinks that LPG is getting to be a rip off, perhaps it is time to look more closely at refillable bottles. Roy [/QUOTE] Hi roy We changed our van this year and decided to have 2 x 11kg gaslow refillable cylinders fitted - mainly to overcome the unavailability in europe. Like you, we previously used the 6kg calor cylinders which hoold about 12 litres of lpg. The new ones were fitted by Autogas 2000 at Thirsk who then filled the two cylinders with 44 litres and cost just over £19 - quite a reduction!! Best regards, david

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]David Lloyd - 2006-08-02 9:56 AM Hi Roy We changed our van this year and decided to have 2 x 11kg gaslow refillable cylinders fitted - mainly to overcome the unavailability in Europe. Like you, we previously used the 6kg calor cylinders which hold about 12 litres of LPG. The new ones were fitted by Autogas 2000 at Thirsk who then filled the two cylinders with 44 litres and cost just over £19 - quite a reduction!! Best regards, David[/QUOTE] David, Can you clarify one point please. You state that your 11kg refillable bottle will hold 22 litres of LPG, with the 80% stop fill that should be 17.6 litres. I'm assuming they do have the 80% stop fill. I have a 13kg refillable from MTH which will hold 21 litres. Anybody else got any observations (?) Don

[Basil]

Hi Don I too have the Gaslow 11kg size refillable and theyhold 22.5 litres at 80% fill when the cut off operates. Hope that helps.

[david lloyd]

Hi don Yes Basil has it right - they do hold 22.5 litres (I did think it was about 22 litres approx) so pretty good ion terms of volume and price. Regards, david

[smifee]

hi don i think this is gaslow being too honest. they quote the capacity to the cut off. the 13kg bottles are identical but quote 100% capacity ( ignoring decimal places ). mike

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]smifee - 2006-08-02 9:40 PM hi don i think this is gaslow being too honest. they quote the capacity to the cut off. the 13kg bottles are identical but quote 100% capacity ( ignoring decimal places ). mike[/QUOTE] Mike I've compared my 13kg bottle with a Gaslow 11kg and mine is bigger, something is not right somewhere, I'm wondering just how good the gaslow 80% fill stop really is. I inspected the Gaslow bottle three years ago before we bought the MTH ones and was not impressed with the quality at all. I'll compare them again at the Malvern Show. Don

[smifee]

don i didn't buy gaslow either. i went to autogas 2000 at thirsk because they would fit the system how i wanted it done whereas the local gaslow fitter was telling me how he was going to fit it. a long round trip but i prefer to deal with people who give me good service. unsurprisingly steve at autogas says their bottles are better made than gaslow. mike

[Derek Uzzell]

The '4-hole' refillable steel gas-bottles marketed by Autogas 2000 (and MTH Gas Systems) are quite different in design to the '2-hole' Gaslow bottles and this extra complexity is reflected in the 4-hole bottles' considerably higher cost. Gaslow's literature (or the Gaslow literature I've got) quotes 80% fill capacities for their bottles as 11.5 litres for the 6kg canister or 21 litres for the 11kg cylinder. I'm not familiar with the design of Gaslow's stop-fill valve, but it's perfectly possible there may be a significant variation in where the cut-off point occurs. Can't see this matters much as long as adequate free space remains in the bottle when it's full.

[Basil]

Hi Don, I would be interested to find out what it was that made you decide that there was a quality problem with the Gaslow cylinders. Having installed these in our vehicle I have to say I could see no difference in the quality of the bottles or equipment used for the system to the others I had looked at. Have I missed something that would explain their considerably more reasonable price over other systems??? My 11kg cylinder has cut off at 21litres both times that I have filled from empty, which is as expected so I have had no cause to question the operation of the cut off valve as the stated cut off is 21.5litres.

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]Basil - 2006-08-04 8:19 PM Hi Don, I would be interested to find out what it was that made you decide that there was a quality problem with the Gaslow cylinders. Having installed these in our vehicle I have to say I could see no difference in the quality of the bottles or equipment used for the system to the others I had looked at. Have I missed something that would explain their considerably more reasonable price over other systems??? My 11kg cylinder has cut off at 21litres both times that I have filled from empty, which is as expected so I have had no cause to question the operation of the cut off valve as the stated cut off is 21.5litres.[/QUOTE] Hi Basil, Just stand the two bottles together like I did and you will see the difference. Don

[spartan3956]

I fitted a gaslow system 2x11kg first fill was 45litres and im very pleased with the system and the customer service i had after ordering too long a fill hose was second to none. replacement came next day. Gaslow gives me half a bottle free every time i fill up. soon to recover my installation costs. pete

[david lloyd]

Don I can only agree that the cylinders I saw that Autogas 2000 at Thirsk supply (carabottle) are superior to the gaslow ones he fitted for me but the price difference was significant. Steve at autogas felt that the quality of the gaslow cylinders was good but questioned the price they asked for their fitting kit - his was half the price. All told - I am happy with the system overall and pleased we took the opportunity to change. Regards, david

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]david lloyd - 2006-08-05 9:36 AM Don I can only agree that the cylinders I saw that Autogas 2000 at Thirsk supply (carabottle) are superior to the gaslow ones he fitted for me but the price difference was significant. Steve at autogas felt that the quality of the gaslow cylinders was good but questioned the price they asked for their fitting kit - his was half the price. All told - I am happy with the system overall and pleased we took the opportunity to change. Regards, david[/QUOTE] David, As I can only get one bottle in my Timberland it had to be one with a accurate gauge. As the Gaslow bottle does not have a gauge fitted they were no good to me. All this happened three years ago and for me the refillable bottle has taken all the worry out of long term winter touring. regards Don

[spartan3956]

As the Gaslow bottle does not have a gauge fitted they were no good to me. Im afraid your slightly wrong on this one Gaslow do have a gauge which is a lot more acurate than there standard one plus they do a remote warning senor for inside the camper. I would definitely take a look at their web page, Im not knocking Autogas but its on value for money and Im not saying the cheapest is best but if it does the same, then price matters as it will be quicker to recover the initial costs. Electra 1000 gauges http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/GASLOW_2006_8pp.pdf Pete

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]spartan3956 - 2006-08-05 10:41 AM As the Gaslow bottle does not have a gauge fitted they were no good to me. I'm afraid your slightly wrong on this one Gaslow do have a gauge which is a lot more accurate than there standard one plus they do a remote warning senor for inside the camper. I would definitely take a look at their web page, I'm not knocking Autogas but its on value for money and I'm not saying the cheapest is best but if it does the same, then price matters as it will be quicker to recover the initial costs. Electra 1000 gauges http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/GASLOW_2006_8pp.pdf Pete[/QUOTE] Pete, The gaslow refillable bottles don't have a fitted gauge, there on the regulator. My MTH bottle has a float gauge which is accurate down to the last couple of litres. The pressure gauges on the regulators are no where near as accurate and when you only have one bottle accuracy is important. I agree the gaslow set up is value for money if that's what you want. Don

[Basil]

Hello Don, Quite accept your point re the guages, that was not a problem for me as I have two bottles so use the 11kg until it is empty then switch to the 6kg until I refill. The gaslow gauge on my changeover is reliable and accurate in the sense that when you know the pressure is dropping off you can confirm from the gauge, as that is all it measures, but it certainly gives little warning of the actual gas running down to an unuseable quantity as you quite rightly say, but is more usefull as a safety check for any gas escapes downstream. I have to say in terms of cylinder quality I saw little difference, they would all have to conform to laid down gas safety standards anyway. One thing that does intrigue me though with Calors excuse for higher prices being the inspection of the cylinders, is that the Gaslow is certificated for 15yrs before requiring an inspection, so how can a 15yr gap between inspections add so much, nearly double, to the refill price??? I'm afraid that sounds a bit like a 'red herring' to me!!