New Fiat Ducato Traction Plus

[Star55]

We have ordered a new Murvi Pimento on Fiat Ducato MWB with Multijet 130. A Fiat option is Traction+ at £350 + VAT. Traction control (ASR) comes as standard anyway, with electronic stability programme. Traction+ adds an electronic differential, which is to my mind a more intelligent way of improving traction rather than just braking the spinning wheel. It also includes MBA (whatever that is), and all-season tyres. The question is, is Traction+ worth the extra £420? Has anybody tried a Ducato with and without it?

 

Many thanks

[colin]

On the two occasions we have got bogged down both wheels lost grip, traction plus would have been no help at all.

[Brambles]

MBA is Mechanical Brake Assistance. Sounds a bit mundane, but s actually a system for detecting when you apply the brakes in an emergency situtaion and the elextronically boosts the brakes by fully deploying the ABS braking ssytem to give you maximimum controlled braking power.

 

Rather than me explain its features it is easier to provide a link.

http://www.trw.com/sites/default/files/TRW_braking_Mechanical%20Brake%20Assist%20_mBA__English_2013.pdf

 

As to Traction+. it all depends on what kind of roads you are likely to be driving on and how fast but would have thought it is more applicable to muddy roads, pebble roads etc. However I am sure it would be useful on a mud covered road and sometimes on getting off grass pitches etc but really I doubt there is much advantage to the average user over the standard traction system unless you drive a lot on earth roads or in snow. ice, in fields etc. and want to drive a bit faster and more like a car might where the driver is in a bit of a rush. We are motorhome owners and take our time on these roads ....don't we?

[Derek Uzzell]

Star55

 

ASR and Traction Plus for Ducato are mentioned on this webpage:

 

http://www.fiatcamper.com/product/esp_and_traction_plus

 

On another website Ducato's ASR feature is described as follows:

 

"ASR (Anti Slip Regulation). The ASR (Anti Slip Regulation) system, an integral part of the ESP, optimises traction at any speed with the aid of the brakes and engine control. The device computes degree of slip on the basis of wheel rpm detected by the ABS sensors and activates two different control systems to restore grip: when an excessive power demand causes both drive wheels to slip (e.g. in the case of aquaplaning or when accelerating over an unsurfaced, snowy or icy road), it reduces engine torque by means of the engine management control unit; if only one wheel slips (e.g. the inside wheel following acceleration or dynamic load changes), this is automatically braked without the driver touching the brake pedal. The resulting effect is similar to that of a self-locking differential. This allows the New Ducato to get out of trouble easily on road surfaces with low grip."

 

Thus ASR uses a combination of the vehicle's brakes and control of the motor's power-output to maximise grip AT ANY SPEED.

 

Traction Plus is offered on other Fiat vehicles and (on front-wheel-drive ones) supposedly provides grip at slow speeds and on difficult surfaces that approaches that of a 4x4. You say that "...Traction+ adds an electronic differential..." but I'm not certain it does.

 

I can't find anything useful about the technicalities of Ducato's Traction+ system but a 2012 review of Fiat's Panda Trekking says about that car's Traction+ system:

 

"Fiat has given the Trekking a clever electronic and stability control system called Traction +. This mimics an electronic locking differential by controlling the brakes when slip is detected in either of the front wheels, directing traction to the wheel with more grip. Traction + can be used at speeds of up to 18mph."

 

You'll note from the fiatcamper webpage that Ducato's Traction+ system requires the driver to select it via a dashboard button and that "The system may be activated only up to 30 km/h". The 30km/h speed tallies with the 18mph speed mentioned in the Panda Trekking review.

 

So Question One is "What does one actually get for £420?" If this buys a genuine electronic differential, then it's probably reasonable value and worth paying for. If it buys just a more sophisticated version of ASR, then it's probably not good value, though it may still be worth having. Activation "...only up to 30km/h" implies deactivation above that speed, so (if that's indeed the case) it's not going to help you to drive faster at speeds above 18mph.

 

I can't tell you how effective Traction+ is on a Ducato (which, of course, is exactly what you want to know!). A Ducato is not a Panda and Traction+ on a heavy-ish Ducato van cannot be expected to provide the level of grip on difficult terrain it could on a light Panda car. If (as colin points out) a FWD vehicle gets bogged down completely with neither of its two driven vehicles able to gain grip, you'll be stuck and that's that. As Brambles says, if you regularly park on grass (or plan to do so in future) Traction+ may be worth having; if not, it won't.

 

I suggest you ask Fiat and/or Murvi for more technical details of the Ducato Traction+ system. As no forum member seems to have hands-on experience of the system on a Ducato motorhome, you might try PM-ing Nick Fisher (euroserv) as, if anyone can advise it's likely to be him. Nick has never posted to the Hints and Tips forum (which should have been dumped long ago), so you might also try copying your inquiry to the Motorhome Matters forum where you'd get a wider audience and possibly catch Nick's attention.

[Derek Uzzell]

Star55

 

While I remember, it might be wise for you to confirm from Murvi what the terms, conditions and duration of the warranty will be for your Pimento motorhome. Also, whether or not the vehicle will qualify for "Fiat Camper Assistance".

 

http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/Services/Assistance/Fiat_Camper_Assistance

 

Both of these issues came up in 2009 regarding Murvi motorhomes and (in my opinion) were never satisfactorily resolved.

[Star55]

I can now update this thread with actual experience. We didn't order Traction +, on the basis of advice given here, relying on dealer assurances that ASR provides traction control. The owner handbook confirms that ASR has 2 functions:

 

1. Limits power when a wheel slips.

2. Brakes the slipping wheel to allow other wheel to drive, if it has grip.

 

We were on a wet field, with the left front wheel on hard standing and the right wheel on wet grass, sloping slightly downhill. I tried to move off extremely gently, and the right wheel spun immediately, digging into the mud. Traction mats got us out, but there was no evidence of any traction control.

 

There then followed a comedy of errors, as follows:

 

1. Local Fiat service agent initially said that ASR only limits power, doesn't brake the slipping wheel. They then changed their tune and said that ASR wasn't fitted to the van, according to their diagnostics.

 

2. Fiat UK said ASR was an option that had not been ordered. Not true, it was standardised in April 2013 and the van was built in June 2013. Fiat also said that the handbook was not a guide to what was actually fitted to the vehicle. But the handbook clearly states what is standard and what is optional.

 

3. Fiat UK later apologised and said that ASR was fitted to the van.

 

4. The Fiat service agent tested the van again and said that ASR was working, but would not cope with the conditions we encountered.

 

Bear in mind this is a motorhome that is going to be used on grass fields. If it can't cope with that when it rains, it's not fit for purpose. I have tested the van with one wheel on wet grass and it just goes round and round. I found the Fiat press release about the upgrade to ESP, ASR etc. Link: http://www.fiatprofessionalpress.co.uk/press/article/5217

 

This says that "Traction + uses the engine's ESP computer to simulate the behaviour of a self-locking differential. When one of the driven front wheels spins on a slippery surface or over poor terrain, the brakes are applied to that wheel as simultaneously engine torque is transferred to the wheel with better grip."

 

So it's just a matter of programming of the ESP computer. I have asked Fiat UK about upgrading the software to Traction +. ASR is certainly a complete waste of time.

[colin]

I'm sure I posted on the forum how I'd accidentally activated the ASR in a similar situation, can't remember which pedal got a quick sharp dab by mistake, was either throttle or brake, whatever, there was a vibe like the ABS firing and van started rolling.

[spospe]

colin - 2014-12-14 7:04 PM

 

I'm sure I posted on the forum how I'd accidentally activated the ASR in a similar situation, can't remember which pedal got a quick sharp dab by mistake, was either throttle or brake, whatever, there was a vibe like the ABS firing and van started rolling.

 

Is the ASR turned on by default, or off? There is a switch to the right of the hazard light switch for the ASR, but I am not sure if you use the switch to turn ASR on, or turn it off. The handbook is not at all clear (Peugeot). There is certainly no mention of dabbing either the throttle or the brake in order to activate it.

 

I have asked Peugeot, but frankly they seem unknowledgeable and could not give a clear answer.

[colin]

spospe - 2014-12-14 7:26 PM

 

colin - 2014-12-14 7:04 PM

 

I'm sure I posted on the forum how I'd accidentally activated the ASR in a similar situation, can't remember which pedal got a quick sharp dab by mistake, was either throttle or brake, whatever, there was a vibe like the ABS firing and van started rolling.

 

Is the ASR turned on by default, or off? There is a switch to the right of the hazard light switch for the ASR, but I am not sure if you use the switch to turn ASR on, or turn it off. The handbook is not at all clear (Peugeot). There is certainly no mention of dabbing either the throttle or the brake in order to activate it.

 

I have asked Peugeot, but frankly they seem unknowledgeable and could not give a clear answer.

 

On our x2/50 the ASR is on by default, but that doesn't mean it will activate, as I've found out before, and now it seems Derek has found out the same

[Derek Uzzell]

It should be visually evident from the vehicle’s dashboard whether a Fiat Ducato X250 has ASR (Antislip Regulator) or the Traction Plus feature. In the former case there wil be a button marked “ASR” and, in the latter case, there will be (in the same position on the dashboard as the ASR button and instead of it) a button carrying the letter “T” within a circle. Descriptions of both features are in the X250 Owner Handbook.

 

ASR is part of the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) system and is enabled automatiically each time the Ducato’s ignition is turned on. Pressing the ASR button (that then illuminates) disables the ASR system. I don’t know what the Peugeot Boxer handbook says, but the instructions in the X250 handbook relating to ASR are clear enough.

 

(Automatic enablement of an ASR-type traction-control feature is the norm. So, if you want ASR to operate, I suggest that you do NOT press an ASR-type button.)

 

Conversely, Fiat’s Traction Plus is an ‘on demand’ feature and is normally deactivated. For Traction Plus to operate the “T” dashboard-button must be pressed (and the T” button then illuminates). Traction Plus is an extension of the ESP system and priced at £75 in the UK price-list for the current Ducato X290. For maximum effect Traction Plus needs to be paired with tyres designed for enhanced grip on poor surfaces (ie. “all season” tyres with an aggressive tread pattern). As far as I’m aware Traction Plus must be specified prior to a Ducato being built and retro-fitting it is not practicable.

 

Some while ago Pro-mobil magazine tested a couple of similar Ducato X250 motorhomes on a snow-covered road surface, with one motorhome having Traction Plus switched on and the other without Traction Plus but with ASR enabled. Traction Plus did improve the vehicle’s grip, but not miraculously and - as one might reasonably anticipate - it was the tyres that were the limiting factor. The conclusion was that it was worth specifying Traction Plus as an option on a Ducato motorhome as long as the motothome manufacturer’s asking-price for it was not exorbitant.

 

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere on the forum, although the current Ducato X290 was advertised as having an ESP system as part of its standard specification, it’s become evident that motorhome manufacturers can ‘deselect’ ESP from the specification if they so choose. In such instances the motorhome manufacturer will usually offer ESP with Traction Plus as a (not cheap) option.

 

(The Peugeot equivalent to Traction Plus is called “Grip Control”. I believe it’s now available as an option on Boxer X290s, but I’m not sure what the position was with Boxer X250s.)

 

[spospe]

The X250 Boxer came with the option of ASR (at extra cost) and Intelligent Traction Control (at an additional extra cost), but this was not made clear at the time of ordering and we ended up with ASR only.

 

The Peugeot driver's handbook is not very clear as to how to use the ASR, because at one point it mentions pressing the button under slippery conditions in order to allow the wheels to spin in order to restore traction. After re-reading this section several times this morning, I have decided that what it means is that ASR is normally present, but under very difficult conditions it may be better to switch it off (by pressing the button).

 

Intelligent Traction Control (not called Grip Control on the X250) works the other way round to ASR, in that to use it, you must press the button in order to activate the system. When the button is pressed, ASR is switched off and ITC switched on (what this means is that when you have ITC, you also, by default have ASR).

 

 

[colin]

I think I recall what happened now.

I was going to reverse into the van shed, as soon as clutch engaged the drivers side wheel started spinning as it was on a patch of wet clay, I disengaged and engaged clutch several times with no throttle, but to no effect, and had foot poised over brake in case it gained grip and lurched backwards, I went to give it a dab of throttle to see what effect that would have but caught the edge of brake pedal, the ABS fired off and van rolled backwards. I guess if you think about it that makes sense as the spinning wheel would be braked and the ABS would release pressure on the stalled wheel, how controllable this is I have no idea as it just needed a small movement to get the van moving, but worth a try if you get stuck.

[Archiesgrandad]

Our van does not have any of these modern gizmos, indeed I think that there may still be traces of the hooks to which a horse could be attatched, but most our cars have had various forms of the same concept during the past few years, and we find it works.

Manufacturers do not produce medium weight vans with a suitability for off road use. The various traction control devices are intended to give assistance when metalled roads become slippery. We may try to delude ourselves that there is some magic switch that will enable our heavily loaded commercial vehicles to become 4 x 4s, but it is not physically possible. It should be possible to gently ease a van forward on wet grass, especially if it is trying to move downhill, provided that the ground is sufficiently firm to not allow the wheels to dig in, but you need to be very careful with the throttle and steering inputs, and if the wheels start to spin, even just a tiny bit, stop and rethink your plan of action.

I find the traction control system on my present car fascinating. If I do find myself on a slippery surface on which I cannot move off, all I have to do is leave the engine on tickover and gently feed in the clutch in 1st gear. The little lights on the instruments start to flash and you can clearly feel the system applying the brakes on first one wheel and then the next, until after twenty or thirty yards both wheels have sufficient grip and I can take control again and gently move up through the gears and drive on. It does work on wet grass, provided the ground is firm, and it will work in snow up to about 4 inches deep, more than that and it effectively digs itself in.

So, ladies and gentlemen, I believe that if you are expecting more than that, you may not be reasonable in your expectations.

AGD

[Muswell]

Trials cars have 2 independent hand brakes so you can lock the wheel that is spinning. The equivalent for a van would be to have 3 feet, or to be able to heel and toe ....which is what you did. Without ABS I guess you would have to be quite delicate and not give too much brake but with ABS I suppose you can just press as hard as you like. A good suggestion.

[colin]

Archiesgrandad - 2014-12-15 11:54 AM

It should be possible to gently ease a van forward on wet grass, especially if it is trying to move downhill, provided that the ground is sufficiently firm to not allow the wheels to dig in, but you need to be very careful with the throttle and steering inputs, and if the wheels start to spin, even just a tiny bit, stop and rethink your plan of action.

 

A high clay content soil and rain will often stop even 4x4s in their tracks, a customer came in the workshop asking for a push, he had tried following the tracks of my Suzi, but had come to a complete stop, the funny thing was he had left it in 'drive', when we got out there it was stood on grass hardly sunk in but the wheels where turning as the torque convertor had more drag than the wet ,clay soiled, grass

[spospe]

colin - 2014-12-15 11:47 AM

 

I went to give it a dab of throttle to see what effect that would have but caught the edge of brake pedal, the ABS fired off and van rolled backwards. I guess if you think about it that makes sense as the spinning wheel would be braked and the ABS would release pressure on the stalled wheel, how controllable this is I have no idea as it just needed a small movement to get the van moving, but worth a try if you get stuck.

 

This sounds like a good thing to try when stuck on wet / boggy ground before getting completely sunk-in. It is something that I will keep in mind for the future if things get difficult.

 

I have in the past lain under a Land Rover and manually adjusted the brakes so as to shift drive from a spinning wheel to the opposite one that had more grip, so Colin's idea makes sense to me.

[colin]

The last time I got stuck was at Stone Lanes nursery in Devon, a grass car park that was very wet, didn't sink in, but just a couple of yards short of crown of hill ran out of grip, it was march just getting dark and no one to be seen. In the boot I had a pair of cheap grip mats from Aldi, took two goes to get to top of hill but they worked, not sure they would cope with anything worse, but they paid for themselves that day.

[Derek Uzzell]

For anyone interested, it is possible to find Peugeot Boxer handbooks on-line via the following link

 

http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com/ddb/?_ga=1.157688762.1840732150.1404743059

 

Handbooks are available for Boxer ‘vans’ registered from 1 July 2002 to the present day.

 

It would seem that “Intelligent Traction Control” (the equivalent to Fiat’s “Traction Plus”) became available for Boxers from 1 July 2011.