Unrest in Spain - & southern Europe

[CliveH]

We have been seeing deep unrest in Greece for a while now - but little is reported in our media. Now we have the Catholic Church (a staunch supporter of Europe) saying that tensions in Spain are building. And with unemployment at 27% this is hardly surprising. Some very harsh words from this Spanish Archbishop. About time someone said it! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/10052268/Spanish-prelate-fears-mutual-hatred-over-euro-crisis.html

[Guest pelmetman]

Your up early Clive...........interesting article though...

 

There cant be many places left in Southern Europe where I'd want to park a camper with German number plates 8-)

[CliveH]

Yes - up early indeed - occasional bouts of insomnia are a fact of life for me - no idea why - It does not seem to bother me tho I do take care not to drive if i have been up all night.

 

And that is no inconvenience as i have a home office and technology allows me to access data from our main server some 20 miles away.

 

We are getting increasingly alarming reports of unrest in some EU countries - it almost seems that our main stream media seem intent on ignoring it.

 

But the impact of the austerity measures inflicted on these countries and the protests against it are being reported in many of the financial outlets.

 

This is the first time that I have seen a prominent figure stand up and say what is happening.

 

And it needed to be said.

 

Interesting that the Spanish Archbishops comments came at much the same time that a couple of Cabinet Ministers here stated publicly that if a vote on EU membership took place now, with the EU "as it is" - they would vote to leave.

 

 

[enodreven]

Hi,

 

Just returned from a short trip to Germany, and speaking to a few Germans about the situation, most of the few I talked to seem very suprised that Germany is in such a position of power/wealth within Europe and they don't appear to understand how they got into that position.

 

Also they do seem to feel upset that they appear to getting blamed for helping as in general they have been living with a self imposed austerity for years.

 

I must admit I only spoke to about 3/4 people but they did seem to be a quite shocked that they were appering to be blamed, when they were only trying to help.

 

We have been going to Germany for the last 3/4 years now and its quiet noticable that while no one appears to be hard-up, short of anything, there dosen't appear to be lot of new cars, motorhomes, caravans etc. they seem to be using, by the UK standards, quiet old equipment, so it does seem like they have been living with some form of self imposed austerity for years.

 

Not sure how I think the Euro/European thing is going to end, but it does seem that the one size fits all approach dosen't appear to be working.

[CliveH]

Interesting viewpoint. The population of germany has certainly been on the receiving end of their governments determination to prop up he Euro.

 

The elections in Germany later this year will be interesting in that anti EU and anti Euro sentiment in particular within Germany does seem to be growing.

 

 

[RogerC]

An interesting article indeed.  It's really about time the politicians and bureaucrats realised that the 'European Super State' is divisive and unworkable and if not sorted out soon will result in serious civil unrest. 

[Guest pelmetman]

With Germany repatriating Gold........I reckon they have seen the writing on wall, and are preparing quietly for the collapse of the Euro...........but keeping up the appearance of business as usual >:-)........

 

Maybe Christmas will be the obvious time to pull the plug when all the markets are closed ;-)........

[Syd]

 

It is not just Germany that is taking it's gold in-house India and several other countries are doing so quietly

 

There is serious concern that America does not have all the Gold that is says it has got and quiet a bit of it has been pledged as security on more than one occasion.

 

America is double counting it's gold stocks so that automatically halves it's stock.

It is only a matter of time before someone in America defaults then the proverbial will hit the fan

 

The percieved wisdom seems to be that Gold will fall lower for about another six months before rising to maybe $1700/$1900 and maybe higher per ounce in about two years time.

 

I think I agree with that

[CliveH]

I have to say Syd that from where i sit - there is little evidence apart from the usual conspiracy theories about the immanent destruction of capitalism, that there is a problem with gold reserves.

 

And even if there were, the fact that Gold funds (that have to be regularly audited) have huge reserves as well means that the issue is not a catastrophic one even if true and the US is somehow double counting its reserves.

 

After all as the article states - just one Gold fund holds that much Gold that f it were a country it would be the 6th largest country in the world ranked on the size of its Gold reserve.

 

Far more worrying is what the numpties are DOING with the Gold to prop up the failed experiment that is the Euro.

 

Even the most blatant advocate of the single currency has to now admit that it takes real skill (Sarc!) to start with 20 successful economies all trading together in a common market and then combine them into one large bankrupt entity — and all this in only 15 years.

 

 

8-)

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

The Euro was a brave experiment and I hope that it continues. If it doesn't though and every country goes back to its own currency at least we'll be spared the endless whinging and the enormous and lengthy cut and paste posts that we've had to put up with in Chatterbox recently.

 

Unfortunately, we'll then have even more moaning about having to carry three or four different currencies when we have a trip to France, Spain and Portugal, or the one I did recently to Belgium, Germany, Austria and Italy. And there'll be an extra thing to whinge about of course, which is the cost of swapping currencies and the commissions and charges involved.

 

Why anyone on here would want the Euro to fail is beyond me!

[enodreven]

Hi,

 

I really don't want to see the Euro fail, its just that with all the pain that is being felt by ordinary people in Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Cyprus, its very hard to see how it can continue to inflick so big a problem.

 

While some of it may have been due to the way those countries have been managed, it still seems having joined the Euro to bring benefits to their countries it has tied there hands and left them with very little room to try and correct the situation, where as if they had stayed as individual Currencies, they may of had more flexibility to overcome the problems without so much hurt on their people.

 

Please don't read this as I want the Euro to fail as I really don't but I honestly don't see a way out for those people who are suffering now.

[CliveH]

Had Enough - 2013-05-14 3:25 PM

 

 

 

Why anyone on here would want the Euro to fail is beyond me!

 

Well that is hardly a surprise!

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

The Euro was a Gentlemen's Club. Ths problem with Gentlemen's Clubs, as with Gentlemen's Agreements, is the continued existence of the gentlemen. :-D

[CliveH]

Quite!

 

Very well put Brian

 

Any sign of "gentlemanly conduct" has long since disappeared

 

The problem now is the almost total lack of Trust.

 

Plus the unfortunate fact that Germany whilst having the economic clout to carry the Euro for a while, also has the problem of history.

 

And that is getting even past supporters of the Euro deeply concerned

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/28/german-role-euro-crisis-disaster

 

 

 

[enodreven]

Hi,

 

Interesting link, I really think the German elections will start to show how the Germans are really thinking, whether they want to share their wealth with the rest of the EU or they want to spend it on themselves,

 

As up until now it appears to me that German policitcal leaders have been trying to balance a very fine line between using the countries wealth to bail out the Euro, while keeping the German public opinion onside stopping them seeing it as just giving their hard earned weath away, wonder if it has been working ?

 

It will be very interesting to see how the elections turn out ?

 

[Guest pelmetman]

CliveH - 2013-05-14 4:56 PM

 

Had Enough - 2013-05-14 3:25 PM

 

 

 

Why anyone on here would want the Euro to fail is beyond me!

 

Well that is hardly a surprise!

 

 

 

 

Well if it worked fairly than no one would want it to fail *-).................but its clearly a complete bag of spanners, so only a brain dead bureaucrat would want to continue with it >:-)

 

As for carrying different currencies, a bit of a red herring really, unless you have never heard of credit/debit or Caxton cards ;-)

[CliveH]

Totally correct Dave.

 

The deeply flawed concept that describes currency variation as a bad thing for trade is one of the core issues many of us have with the Euro.

 

If having a fixed currency was such a good idea then why is the US constantly accusing China of manipulating its currency down against the $US?

 

The reality is that if your economy comes under pressure then devaluing it makes your products more cost effective in those countries with stinger currencies.

 

The nonsense of the Euro shoehorning disparate economies like Greece and the rest of the PIIGS into the same economic structure as the rest of Europe is total bloody nonsense.

 

And I agree totally that the elections in Germany in September will be very interesting.

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

To suggest that you can travel Europe using only a Caxton or debit/credit card is utter nonsense. Perhaps people have never seen the signs in many small businesses where they tell you that they will not take cards for small sums. Some campsites will not take cards for one night stays.

 

Try flashing your Caxton card to the French baker for your newly baked baguette. Try flashing your debit card at the Italian ice cream kiosk or the Slovenian bus driver!

 

I can guarantee you that anyone saying that different currencies is a red herring has never gone abroad without a bunch of Euro notes, but now they think that they can do just that without any Francs, Pesetas or Lira!

 

Some people have a lot to learn about foreign travel! I have no comment about the pros and cons of the Euro and have no wish to join the debate but to suggest that its abolition isn't going to be a huge inconvenience to regular travellers is plain silly!

 

We're going to end up constantly changing money and paying for the privilege every time we cross a border. I can remember what it was like pre-Euro and I'm not looking forward to returning to that system. I still have tenner's worth of Croatian Kuna from three years ago that I didn't spend and I won't be going back for ages!

[CliveH]

Do you know HE - I was so damned inconvenienced when I was last in Toronto I nearly cried with the frustration.

 

And when i went over the border into the US - i could have screamed with frustration - TWO CURRENCIES - BOTH $'s !!!!!!!!!! I just could not get my head round it.

 

Then there is Singapore, we had three days there in China Town and Little India and just about got to grips with is $ - but when we went into Malaysia - having to use the Ringgit nearly caused me to have a nervous breakdown!

 

And why did the Australians opt for their $ ?

 

How do these economies manage at all with their own currencies?

 

They should take a leaf out of Europe's book and artificially combine their currencies so that people like you and I can have an easier time on our holidays!

 

The fact that in doing so, if Europe is anything to go by, they will totally bugger up their economies within less than two decades is really of little consequence given the level in inconvenience you and I would be saved by their so doing.

 

B-)

[Guest pelmetman]

Had Enough - 2013-05-14 6:30 PM

 

To suggest that you can travel Europe using only a Caxton or debit/credit card is utter nonsense. Perhaps people have never seen the signs in many small businesses where they tell you that they will not take cards for small sums. Some campsites will not take cards for one night stays.

 

Try flashing your Caxton card to the French baker for your newly baked baguette. Try flashing your debit card at the Italian ice cream kiosk or the Slovenian bus driver!

 

I can guarantee you that anyone saying that different currencies is a red herring has never gone abroad without a bunch of Euro notes, but now they think that they can do just that without any Francs, Pesetas or Lira!

 

Some people have a lot to learn about foreign travel! I have no comment about the pros and cons of the Euro and have no wish to join the debate but to suggest that its abolition isn't going to be a huge inconvenience to regular travellers is plain silly!

 

We're going to end up constantly changing money and paying for the privilege every time we cross a border. I can remember what it was like pre-Euro and I'm not looking forward to returning to that system. I still have tenner's worth of Croatian Kuna from three years ago that I didn't spend and I won't be going back for ages!

 

Blimey for a captain of industry you ain't that bright *-)............let me explain ;-).......you take said credit/debit/caxton card .......place in hole in the wall machine.......put in pin number draw out cash ;-)........then when you return home you can either convert any spare currency back to sterling or do as we do save it until next time *-).....................but I dare say a man of your great wealth could just throw it away >:-)

[Brian Kirby]

The Euro has generally worked in Germany's favour, because the southern states have dragged down its value, so making German exports to, and tourism from, non-Euro countries, more price attractive. However, the combined banking and Euro crises are costing Germany dear, and many Germans cannot see (presumably because they are untouched by the trade benefits, or periceve themselves so) these relatively indirect benefits, and that is generating a backlash. So, Merkel has a problem in trying to maintain confidence abroad while assuaging the disaffected at home. In a world of instant communications, that is a difficult game to play.

 

She is not always helped by statements of some of her ministers. I saw an interview on Greece with the German Finance minster the other evening. It was put to him that Germany had to be more lenient with its demands for Greek austerity because of the levels of youth unemployment. His answer was that the solution was for Greek youth to go to work elsewhere. Not somehow the most diplomatically sensitive response, you might think, especially as it was bound to get back the the Greek media!

 

So, while they see themselves as helping, those on the receiving end of the help see it as coercive alien interference. It also affects the ordinary person much more on a day to day basis than it affects the wealthy and influential, but it is the ordinary people who have the most votes in democracies. These resentments will come out through the polls.

 

The Euro's problems are, IMO, twofold. First that countries that should never have been admitted were, and have since continued to demonstrate why they should not have been. Second, that the international banking crisis arrived at a very inopportune moment for those weaker economies who had broken the Euro rules and landed themselves, in varying ways, with unsustainable debts. Given time, either might have been corrected in the absence of the other, but there was no time, and the one arrived on the back of the other. Keeping it together will cost the Germans dear, or may break them.

 

The alternative is an orderly departure of Spain, Greece, probably Portugal, and just possibly Italy, with no new countries joining in the near future. The "core" could probably then patch things together, and get a proper set of rules worked out, among which would have to be, IMO, that the ECB took on the role of the old Bundesbank insofar as the control of money supply in all member states is concerned. That would mean the centre controlling the currency, with the state exchequers taking the subservient role of controlling taxation and spending within limits set by the ECB. It might be possible to get agreement on that IF the ECB were collectively managed by the central bankers of the individual states, along something like the lines of a grand monetary policy committee, subject to the oversight of something like an office for budget responsibility with powers to summon "persons and papers" from the member states.

 

The idea of a single currency for a free trade area, with free movement of goods and people, seems to me good in principle, because it allows anyone to see pricing across borders and so exerts pressure to bring prices more closely into line across the whole area. The problems with the Euro were that nearly all members promptly broke their own rules once in, that there was no provision for oversight, and no sanctions against the rule breakers.

 

Will it crash, or survive? Who knows? But it does make travel, and I assume trade, hugely more simple than it was in pre-euro days, with their endless fluctuations between the national currencies. Dave mentions pre-loaded currency cards (Caxton etc), but you'd need a card for each currency, so I don't see any advantage from that quarter. For all its faults the Euro has its merits for trade and tourism, and I'd be sorry to see its demise. That's my opinion. As is traditional, others will doubtless disagree! :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2013-05-14 6:50 PM

Dave mentions pre-loaded currency cards (Caxton etc), but you'd need a card for each currency, so I don't see any advantage from that quarter. For all its faults the Euro has its merits for trade and tourism, and I'd be sorry to see its demise. That's my opinion. As is traditional, others will doubtless disagree! :-D

 

If the euro goes t*ts up, then I'd be surprised if Caxton didn't bring out a multi currency card ;-)......

[Guest Had Enough]

CliveH - 2013-05-14 6:43 PM

 

Do you know HE - I was so damned inconvenienced when I was last in Toronto I nearly cried with the frustration.

 

And when i went over the border into the US - i could have screamed with frustration - TWO CURRENCIES - BOTH $'s !!!!!!!!!! I just could not get my head round it.

 

Then there is Singapore, we had three days there in China Town and Little India and just about got to grips with is $ - but when we went into Malaysia - having to use the Ringgit nearly caused me to have a nervous breakdown!

 

And why did the Australians opt for their $ ?

 

How do these economies manage at all with their own currencies?

 

They should take a leaf out of Europe's book and artificially combine their currencies so that people like you and I can have an easier time on our holidays!

 

The fact that in doing so, if Europe is anything to go by, they will totally bugger up their economies within less than two decades is really of little consequence given the level in inconvenience you and I would be saved by their so doing.

 

B-)

 

I fail to see why you attempt to minimise the nuisance and inconvenience of continually changing money! I'm not saying one word about the merits or otherwise of the Euro, simply that it's disappearance will be a pain in the bum for those of us who may well visit five countries in a period of a few weeks. And then you end up with a few quid's worth of banknotes that you'll never spend again and isn't worth going to the bank to convert!

 

And when I was last in Singapore I don't remember having to change my Singapore dollars for rupees or Chinese yuan, all the shopkeepers were happy to accept my dollars!

 

Anyway, why were you messing about with all this odd money? Don't you know that you can use a Caxton card!

 

It's not going to ruin my holiday. I've spent my life travelling the world and particularly the Far East and until you've grappled with yuan in Tibet or the French Pacific Franc in Tahiti, you've never lived!

 

But switching money as I go from France to Spain and then to Portugal, or from Belgium to Germany and thence to Switzerland and Italy is going to be a pain, and anyone who denies it is letting their anti-Euro phobia overrule their commonsense!

[Guest pelmetman]

Its nice to know that the population of Greece Cyprus etc can expect to put up with decades of austerity so that the wealthy are not inconvenienced 8-)

[Guest Had Enough]

pelmetman - 2013-05-14 6:48 PM

 

Had Enough - 2013-05-14 6:30 PM

 

To suggest that you can travel Europe using only a Caxton or debit/credit card is utter nonsense. Perhaps people have never seen the signs in many small businesses where they tell you that they will not take cards for small sums. Some campsites will not take cards for one night stays.

 

Try flashing your Caxton card to the French baker for your newly baked baguette. Try flashing your debit card at the Italian ice cream kiosk or the Slovenian bus driver!

 

I can guarantee you that anyone saying that different currencies is a red herring has never gone abroad without a bunch of Euro notes, but now they think that they can do just that without any Francs, Pesetas or Lira!

 

Some people have a lot to learn about foreign travel! I have no comment about the pros and cons of the Euro and have no wish to join the debate but to suggest that its abolition isn't going to be a huge inconvenience to regular travellers is plain silly!

 

We're going to end up constantly changing money and paying for the privilege every time we cross a border. I can remember what it was like pre-Euro and I'm not looking forward to returning to that system. I still have tenner's worth of Croatian Kuna from three years ago that I didn't spend and I won't be going back for ages!

 

Blimey for a captain of industry you ain't that bright *-)............let me explain ;-).......you take said credit/debit/caxton card .......place in hole in the wall machine.......put in pin number draw out cash ;-)........then when you return home you can either convert any spare currency back to sterling or do as we do save it until next time *-).....................but I dare say a man of your great wealth could just throw it away >:-)

 

Who said anything about the methods of drawing the cash? But whatever you do you'll end up with a load of spare money and you then have the fag of changing it back to Sterling. I've not found a way yet of stuffing my Lira in a machine and getting pound notes in exchange.

 

I never draw money before leaving for Europe. I never bother with daft things like Caxton cards, which are rejected my many traders and fuel stations. Why would I? I have a debit card and stick it in a machine and get 300 Euro or whatever.

 

But now I may have to get £50 Marks, £200 of Swiss Francs and £300 of Lira and when I get home I'll have to go to the bank and swap what's left for Sterling.

 

It's a pain and no one with any brains can deny the inconvenience as opposed to a single currency!

 

When I got back from my last trip we'd a couple of hundred Euro left. I just stick it in the safe as I know we'll need it again soon. But I've still got my few quids' worth of Kuna!

 

It really is hilarious to see how some people's dislike of the EU and the Euro is blinding them to the clearly obvious inconvenience of having to deal with several currencies!