Ducato 2.0JTD Glowplugs

[Brambles]

Hi, This may be one for Euroserv and the good Nick but others probably know. I am stumped with this one.

 

I read my fault codes the other day as I have noticed a stronger than normal exhaust smell on start up and engine needed 5 minutes or so before it would rev freely from idle. Just 5 to 10 minutes and engine ran fine and no problems starting at all. Just this slow response from the throttle. Similar to how thick oil in an engine many moons ago would make it sluggish when 1st starting and idling. Just giving the history here.

 

Fault code P0380 which is Diesel glowplug sytem fault. Checked it out and lead to glowplugs from control relay sitting at 8.5 volts with warm engine. Checked plugs and all are open circuit, in other words all blown. (53K miles, 2003, orignal plugs, 2.0JTD). 60 watt test lamp, voltage goes to zero.

 

Put in new plugs. Perfect, no initial smell, freely revs again from cold. I monitored the voltage on the plugs and was 12.48 volts, and switched off between 5 and 10 minutes so on surface appears fine.

 

However I always thought the plugs were supplied with about 11 volts, also after the engine started the voltage dropped to about half and then after a short while switched off all together. So I am wondering if the 12.48 volts is correct or not or if I have fault in the relay and what it should really be doing.

I am concerned this almost full battery voltage being on for up to 10 minutes will burn out the new glow plugs. Does any one know please?

 

p.s. Replacing Glowplugs on the 2.0JTD is a pig, not hard really, just a real fiddle getting in there and removing bits to get access....one of these jobs you get cramp in your fingers at the wrong moment and drop a small nut or 10 mm tube spanner down into the gubbins below.

I am worried the relay is bust because one of the interconnect leads was shorted to the clamp holding an injector. Clear when I tested last week, but evidence of having shorted at one time.

[Brambles]

Update.

 

Wondering if this 11 volts is 'automotive' 11 volts.

e.g An automotive light bulb is often labeled 12 volts, but in actual fact is 14 volts, because this is what the system is providing with the engine running. I wonder if this is the same so as 12 is really 14, then 11volts is really 13 volts approx.

I say this as some glow plugs are marked 12 volts and these seem to be on systems using a relay with contacts. The 11 volt plugs appear to be used on systems with solid state relays so maybe the relay drops a volt. Also the 11volts ones all seem to be wired in parallel so there is volt drop in the cables, whereas the 12 volt ones are on sytems with an individual wire to each plug.

 

So maybe my relay s working fine...I am just guessing.

 

I know I know, I have lost some of you.

 

If anyone is interested, I bought the plugs on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290912788285?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_198wt_1301

 

£15 + 2.60postage for a set of 4.

The actual parts as supplied to Citroen (cit number 5960.67) is a Bosch 0 250 202 032 (-0E7) and I think is used in all 2.0 and 2.2 JTD/HDi engines from Fiat, Pug and Cit. You can check the Bosch guide. Just seems an absolute bargain for those wanting spare plugs. 3 sets left at mo. Normally are £10 to 12 each.

I bought the 1st 2 sets sold.

[euroserv]

Hello folks.

 

Our experience with the 2.0JTD is limited because we do not run any on Ducato's but have some Scudo's that use the same unit. For what it's worth, access to the glow plugs on Scudo's is much more awkward but thankfully we have not had to change many. Very few in fact. Our vans do more miles than yours, so this would indicate that the plugs last longer if the are used more, and get hot more often and for longer!

 

Glow plugs used to be used to warm the combustion chamber before starting the engine back in the old days where you waited for the light to go off before turning the key to start the engine. This is no longer the case.

 

Modern glow plugs have a further job to do and this can involve them being operated while the engine is running and in the case of Peugeot, Ford and Mercedes engines they perform a vital task of helping to clean up the exhaust emissions.

 

I do not know the specific 'burn' profile of the 2.0HDi/JTD but would suspect that it will include operation at start-up, post start and whenever called upon by the ECU thereafter. Glow plugs have not really changed much in design, so this increased use will almost certainly reduce the life expectancy and there is not much that can be done about it.

 

Because you said that they had all failed I would have been suspicious that there was a problem with the glow plug relay. It is very unusual for all 4 plugs to fail at the same time, on any vehicle. Has the vehicle been jump started recently? This can cause a surge and potentially damage the relay or plugs.

 

In any case; if the system is now working fine and there are no faults present, I would leave it alone for now but if you start to get any problems like this again you should check the plugs again as soon as possible to see how many are faulty. If it is all of them I would change the relay and get the wiring to and from it checked. It is also very important to use a good quality plug from Beru or NGK (who supply the OE items) or you will probably be changing them more often than you would like to.

 

Nick

 

I should also add that we had a 1.6JTD (Also a Peugeot unit) in after Christmas with all kinds of fuel related faults but the glow plugs were also not working. I cannot recall the exact values recorded but having swapped the relay and substituted parts of the wiring loom (because NOTHING made any sense) we concluded that there must be a voltage applied by the relay at a low current to test the circuit and that the full current is only applied when the plugs are required and the circuit response is 'as expected'. The Fiat dealer was no help whatsoever, and this is unusual because we have a great relationship with them but they just did not know either!

The bottom line with that engine, and having had one of our smaller mechanics wedged between the windscreen scuttle and the top of the engine for a couple of weeks; is that we will not touch another of those 1.6 Pug engines ever again! They were designed by a masochistic computer and, unfortunately for many are installed in literally MILLIONS of European vehicles. The engine has some other major flaws that have recently come to my attention too. Avoid.

[Brambles]

Hi Nick and many thanks for yor informative reply.

The replacement plugs I used are Bosch Duratherm supplied as a Citroen part.

The original ones are all in a different degree of corrosion to the shaft part. The tips all looked much the same. They varied from the plating still pretty good and just light corrosion near the end to extemely corroded. Makes me think they have all failed at varying times with the 1st one very early on. They are Beru make.

 

It only takes one plug working to cancel any fault code being detected and even a 60 watt lamp is enough to stop a fault being shown.

 

One thing for sure having test driven from cold yesterday, the vehicle pulls away from cold like the engine is fully hot...not done that for a long time. Hill very close to me has always been a 1st gear job when engine is cold, no way can you get the speed to get 2nd unless hot and then it flies up. Yesterday with cold engine and new plugs it shot up and could even maybe have made 3rd gear, so something has clearly been wrong with the plugs for a while...and no strong exhaust smell.

 

I wil take your advice, see how it goes and if they fail 'prematurely I can then look at the relay for faults.

Anyway, fault code is not generated anymore so at least that is something.

 

Next job is to replace the tensioner pulley for the alterator/aux belt - noticed it was a bit noisy while I had my head stuck under the bonnet.

Thanks again Nick.

Jon.