Aires for the UK

[rupert123]

crinklystarfish - 2013-05-25 11:14 AM

 

All I see is people giving the bloke a lot of support and a realistic heads-up.

 

.

Well you would, perhaps you need to go back and read some comments. Practical suggestions are the way forward, not what councils will or will not do.

[sambukashot]

I will make the website which will take me a few weeks...

You never know, one day we might just see signs like these in the UK at some point!

http://www.camperstops.co.uk/images/aires-logo.gif   http://www.camperstops.co.uk/images/Aires-Logo-2.gif

[Andy_C]

sambukashot - 2013-05-24 8:26 PM

 

But since an "aire with services" for motorhomes has never been built in the UK from any council ...

Not so, there are several in Northern Ireland:

Broughshane - Houstons Mill, Buckna Road

Carrickfergus - Harbour Car Park

Donaghadee - Commons Recreation Ground, Millisle Road

Whitehead - Bentra Golf Club, Slaughterford Road

 

I'm pretty sure all these have Eurorelais bournes and were set up by the local councils after lobbying by The Motorhome Association. See: http://www.themotorhomeassociation.org

 

If it can be done in NI, I don't see why it cant be done in the rest of the UK, it would probably be a good idea to form a link with The Motorhome Association, which at the moment is focused only on getting 'aires' set up in Ireland.

 

There are certainly 'motorhome friendly' councils in the UK who already allow (or at least don't prohibit) motorhomes staying overnight. Canterbury of course already has a dedicated motorhome stopover, and Fylde Council's experiment at St Annes is set to become permanent with the possibility of disposal facilities being added in the future.

 

My own effort at listing such places is here: http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/uk-motorhome-stopovers.shtml and I would be very happy to work with anyone to promote the development of motorhome stopovers in the UK. I expect Chris & Meli from Vicarious Books would be interested too, they have already produced this: http://www.all-the-aires.com/aire_construction.shtml

 

Andy

[sambukashot]

Thanks Andy,

Some good advice and links, lots of reading to do then!

[Gwendolyn]

Suggestions, based on experience, about a way forward:

 

If you are serious about this, then an approach to a local council: Community, Town, District or County, is the last stage of the process. One person presenting a case based on a web site presentation – however good it is - is not likely to succeed. In partnership with another body, you increase the chances of success.

 

Might I suggest that you need to get on board another body or organisation which would benefit. Now that might be a local Scout / Guide organisation; WI; village hall; retail ‘parc’; school; college; leisure centre; boat club; tennis club; rugby club; football club; Chamber of Trade or Commerce … whatever organisation local to you that you could identify as having suitable locations to offer, and for whom there could be a payback in the form of shopping, or a modest charge for a community / sports group premises.

 

Then you need to convince that particular organisation of the benefits so that the case you, and they, present to the local planners has some weight.

 

You, and your ‘partner organisation’, need:

 

1) A Business Plan. There are sources out there which will help you write a Business Plan for Community Organisations. And you will have to, like it or not, include a Risk Assessment and an Environmental Report.

 

2) Evidence of Community Consultation – this is VITAL. Other wise there may be opposition at the Planning Consent stage from the same local people whom you need to have onside. So you need to convene meetings where issues are discussed.

 

3) A Community Questionnaire which establishes the NEED and desire. I cannot emphasise this enough.

 

This questionnaire needs to be analysed professionally and a presentation prepared. A Power Point presentation would be most helpful.

 

4) Project Development Money

 

This would pay for professional advice and analysis of questionnaires and so on. Project development money for fees is by far the hardest money to source. But it IS available. [i am not prepared to reveal my sources here on an open Forum, but genuine enquiries to me, via PM, with a well thought out approach, could persuade me to help.]

 

Dosh will be needed if you work in partnership with a group not of the retail parc / Chamber of Commerce type who will have money presumably.

 

4) Capital Funding

 

A council will be more prepared to give a sympathetic ear if you – and the interest group with whom you are working - have some capital funding. This, while being not abundant, is easier to source than grants for project development fees. Again, I have information I could be persuaded to pass on.

 

 

Also, investigate if a local body has access to European Funding. They are invariably keen to find organisations and projects in which to ‘invest’ their money. [i need to be deliberately vague at this point. Again, more info, on request, from me.]

 

In fact>>>>>

 

I’d go further, and say that if you are all serious about such campaigns, then a more co-ordinated approach would be more fruitful. Via the PM facility, and maybe liaising with members of other Forums, why do not a group of you get together and, as well as the proposed web based information, devise a Business Plan Template and a Questionnaire Template, and then identify a handful of likely locations, with partner organisations, and concentrate on those?

 

If you, as a group, establish some successful ‘aires’ then others are more likely to follow.

 

Also, it may be easier to get funding for a more nationally based group.

 

And, who knows, maybe the professionals you need in order to get this off the ground – the quantity surveyors, the IT specialists who can analyse the questionnaires, the retired planners, a solicitor or two and, dare I say it, the people experienced in writing presentations and successful funding applications - may be part of the Motorhome Brother / Sisterhood, and will give their professional services for free.

 

 

But, as Tracker has it up-thread, “sod the Tuggers”…. Well this Tugger has some expertise to offer. However, if you likewise wish to tell me to sod off, so be it!

 

If not, PM me and I will offer some information. [but not to Tracker??]

 

Cheers,

Gwen

Still a Tugger Too

 

 

[crinklystarfish]

rupert123 - 2013-05-25 12:08 PM

 

crinklystarfish - 2013-05-25 11:14 AM

 

All I see is people giving the bloke a lot of support and a realistic heads-up.

 

.

Well you would, perhaps you need to go back and read some comments. Practical suggestions are the way forward, not what councils will or will not do.

 

Take your own advice and maybe it will eventually penetrate your skull that he is talking about building a web-based resource to which any interested party may refer for more information.

 

He isn't, at this stage, talking about single-handedly creating an aire network.

 

The advice he has received will equip him to make a better website that might contain the relevant information to head off some of the worries that people in a position to create an 'aire' might have.

 

If you have nothing to add, which is usually the case, why not go off and do some gardening or something instead of just constantly pathetically attempting to create unnecessary friction on here?

[sambukashot]

Thank you crinklystarfish for expaining that to him, you did a better job than i could!

[Tracker]

Gwendolyn - 2013-05-25 1:48 PM

But, as Tracker has it up-thread, “sod the Tuggers”…. Well this Tugger has some expertise to offer. However, if you likewise wish to tell me to sod off, so be it!

If not, PM me and I will offer some information. [but not to Tracker??]

Still a Tugger Too

 

Still lacking a sense of humour then Gwen?

You will be reassured to know that I am delighted to forgo your advice, but I am still happy to offer my total support to any and everyone else involved in the campaign.

Whether or not we have minor differences along the way is irrelevant as the cause is worth far than the petty differences and individual sensitivities involved.

Live and let live - no grudges ever held by me.

 

[Sophie2]

The Website already exists and I think you'll find all the issues mentioned by the OP are covered.

 

http://www.all-the-aires.com/

 

Not sure Vicarious Books (Mel) would be too impressed if you quoted stuff from his site without permission/acknowledgement

[maggyd]

Tracker - 2013-05-24 6:48 PM

 

David Lloyd was successful in getting an Aire at Guisborough some years back and he too is a source of useful info.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/First-Municipal-Aire/4457/

 

David still appears on here from time to time but is much less active than before.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/view-profile.asp?uid=200

 

 

Graham Hadfield also used to be a regular on here but has been seen or heard from for a while now.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/view-profile.asp?action=view&uid=1477

 

 

 

 

That so called Aire at Guisborough Richard was two bays in a bus station :-S it was ridiculous no wonder no-body used it, it wasn't signed either ! I looked for it as we were driving past after shopping .

[sambukashot]

Hi Sophie,

We are proposing a brand new website dedicated to just the one subject of an "aires style" set up for the UK, not a single page with some information on a commercial website as you pointed to with the link you supplied.

I can assure you we will not be copying anything from www.all-the-aires.com  all the content will be fresh and original based upon the posts from this thread!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

lennyhb - 2013-05-25 11:44 AM

 

Following on from what Henry says, a large amount of Stellplatz in Germany are private. What will be need is to get the councils to change their by-laws for example our local council like many has ones prohibiting the sleeping, cooking and using toilet facilities in vehicles.

Not an insurmountable problem but it may take time, our biggest problem is going to be persuading the councillors themselves unfortunately with our system of local government they are unpaid elected officials who are more concerned about getting re-elected rather than actually doing anything that may be a bit controversial.

 

If we all band together and put pressure on our local councils with a bit of luck we may move things in the right direction.

 

 

As I have said before in others posts of this nature, we have thousands of private Stellplatz, and Aires,except they are called CL's or CS . Perhaps we in the UK are unique in two organizations effectively having the whip hand, perhaps that's the difference.

[Tracker]

maggyd - 2013-05-25 6:56 PM

That so called Aire at Guisborough Richard was two bays in a bus station :-S it was ridiculous no wonder no-body used it, it wasn't signed either ! I looked for it as we were driving past after shopping .

 

That's a shame Maggy - David worked very hard for that and although far from perfect it was (is?) at least a foot in the door in Yorkshire.

[Tracker]

1footinthegrave - 2013-05-25 7:25 PM

As I have said before in others posts of this nature, we have thousands of private Stellplatz, and Aires,except they are called CL's or CS . Perhaps we in the UK are unique in two organizations effectively having the whip hand, perhaps that's the difference.

 

Sorry Mike, not true.

 

CLs and CSs are in the main the domain of the two big clubs and are not open to anyone who has not paid the £40 + 'admission fee' for the books containing location details.

 

I understand that anyone may use the fairly small MCC network of CLs but the snag is without a book which means joining the club how do you know where they are.

 

Many UK motorhomers have no interest in joining these clubs and so, along with all motorhomers from mainland Europe, they are effectively banned from using them.

 

They are also mainly on grass and more suited to tents and caravans with awnings than motorhomes plus the cost of many is starting to get quite high - and then there is often the need to prebook.

 

All in all a valuable resource of course and I am not knocking them - but hardly ideal for the wandering camping-car user I think you might agree?

[747]

If you get the website up and running, would you allow it to be announced on other motorhome forums? The more publicity the better.

 

BTW Henry, if you can give me the details of the Cafe at Capel Curig, I will ask their permission to publicise their offer on the Wildcamping Forum.

 

I think the website idea is a very good one as a number of us email Councils that ban motorhomes to complain about it. We also congratulate Councils which encourage motorhomes. It can be a handy reference for Councils as most of them know nothing about how motorhomes are set up and what facilities they have.

[sambukashot]

Hi 747,

The website will be public affair and anyone can link to it.

I have already started making the site (started it today) i will give the details out as soon as i have it live...

I am in the process of working out it's funtionality and content! so if you have any ideas now is a good time to let me know -:)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Tracker - 2013-05-25 7:36 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-05-25 7:25 PM

As I have said before in others posts of this nature, we have thousands of private Stellplatz, and Aires,except they are called CL's or CS . Perhaps we in the UK are unique in two organizations effectively having the whip hand, perhaps that's the difference.

 

Sorry Mike, not true.

 

CLs and CSs are in the main the domain of the two big clubs and are not open to anyone who has not paid the £40 + 'admission fee' for the books containing location details.

 

I understand that anyone may use the fairly small MCC network of CLs but the snag is without a book which means joining the club how do you know where they are.

 

Many UK motorhomers have no interest in joining these clubs and so, along with all motorhomers from mainland Europe, they are effectively banned from using them.

 

They are also mainly on grass and more suited to tents and caravans with awnings than motorhomes plus the cost of many is starting to get quite high - and then there is often the need to prebook.

 

All in all a valuable resource of course and I am not knocking them - but hardly ideal for the wandering camping-car user I think you might agree?

 

Yes I know that of course, what I meant was in the UK we would have the basis for thousands of Aires, if only the main clubs had not got a stranglehold, the times I've passed a CL sign when I was in the CCC club, and vice versa, when we were in the CC club, when I was looking for somewhere to stopover, and I for one am not prepared to pay getting on for £90 to join both.

And of course fully take on board the other issues, having got stuck on so called hard ground a little earlier in the year, but it was ( only ) £12 with no hookup available. 8-) I wonder why we were the only ones there.

[747]

sambukashot - 2013-05-25 9:08 PM

Hi 747,

The website will be public affair and anyone can link to it.

I have already started making the site (started it today) i will give the details out as soon as i have it live...

I am in the process of working out it's funtionality and content! so if you have any ideas now is a good time to let me know -:)

Do not aim the website solely at Councils.I have recently been in touch with a Scottish Harbour Trust to try to gain permission for motorhomes to overnight. I gave them the model of the 'Aire' at Cruden Bay in Aberdeenshire, which is also a Harbour Trust. These Trusts are run by volunteers and look for extra financing wherever they can. In this case, the idea was put to a Meeting of Trustees and was not carried. However, I was contacted afterwards by a member who thanked me and said he would continue to push the idea forward.You should also bear in mind that whichever body who visits the website will know that any system they set up can be tailored to their situation. For instance, it may not be suitable at the height of the tourist season if it will cause problems with parking space. It could therefore be limited to certain times of the year. This might not sound too good but any gain will be subject to a trial period and that must run smoothly in order to become permanent. I recently overnighted at Hawick which now has a motorhome parking area and is free. The Council were not keen but agreed to a 2 year trial. It was the Tourist Information people who asked for the facility. Motorhomers get a welcome from the Tourist people and I was told that they would like to get a toilet disposal facility established. The signs are good in Hawick and they can be used as an example of a successful and trouble free site which brings in visitors (and money) to the local economy.

[sambukashot]

Thank you 747, some very usefull information which will help a lot -:)

[lennyhb]

 

You should also bear in mind that whichever body who visits the website will know that any system they set up can be tailored to their situation. For instance, it may not be suitable at the height of the tourist season if it will cause problems with parking space. It could therefore be limited to certain times of the year..

 

We have been in villages in France where Motorhomes were not allowed to overnight in the car park in July & August but were welcome the rest of the year and you could see why when visiting the restaurants the only people in them were those from Motorhomes parked for the night in the car park. Shows how it can benefit the local economy.

[Andy_C]

One problem to be overcome if trying to establish privately owned stopovers is the requirement for a caravan site licence and planning permission for change of use of the land.

 

The site licence requirement does not apply to local authority controlled land, but planning permission for change of use might.

 

The attitude of local planning departments to council operated stopovers seems to be inconsistent, some consider that the parking of motorhomes overnight on an existing area that is already dedicated to parking does not constitute a change of use, but installing specific facilities to support overnight stays does. Others have said that simply staying overnight in a motorhome constitutes using the land as a caravan site and requires planning permission, this is what caused the demise of the plans for the motorhome stopover ar Dawlish Warren.

 

I know that this is one of the reasons, as well as the cost, that Fylde Council are holding back on the installation of disposal facilities at St Annes. As I understand it they think it will be possible but will require careful management and wording to keep the planners happy.

 

The other option for privately owned stopovers would be to go down the Exemption Certificate route, this is what PM's Nightstop Scheme has done. The problem with that scheme is that it is run by the magazine and doesn't generate any income. They consequently don't have the necessary time or resources to put into developing it as it should be, and because it's tied to the one magazine it doesn't get support or publicity from anywhere else.

 

Britstops is an example of what can be done with a lot of enthusiasm and dedication, unfortunately it currently sits outside the UK's regulatory framework, and of course you have to purchase the book in order to use their locations.

 

Andy

[rupert123]

747 - 2013-05-25 9:01 PM

 

BTW Henry, if you can give me the details of the Cafe at Capel Curig, I will ask their permission to publicise their offer on the Wildcamping Forum.

 

.

OK, next time I am going by will get the exact address.

[Barryd999]

Tracker - 2013-05-25 7:36 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-05-25 7:25 PM

As I have said before in others posts of this nature, we have thousands of private Stellplatz, and Aires,except they are called CL's or CS . Perhaps we in the UK are unique in two organizations effectively having the whip hand, perhaps that's the difference.

 

Sorry Mike, not true.

 

CLs and CSs are in the main the domain of the two big clubs and are not open to anyone who has not paid the £40 + 'admission fee' for the books containing location details.

 

I understand that anyone may use the fairly small MCC network of CLs but the snag is without a book which means joining the club how do you know where they are.

 

Many UK motorhomers have no interest in joining these clubs and so, along with all motorhomers from mainland Europe, they are effectively banned from using them.

 

They are also mainly on grass and more suited to tents and caravans with awnings than motorhomes plus the cost of many is starting to get quite high - and then there is often the need to prebook.

 

All in all a valuable resource of course and I am not knocking them - but hardly ideal for the wandering camping-car user I think you might agree?

 

Not "officially" open to none members but they are. Have a look at http://www.5van.co.uk/. All CL and CS sites are on http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/ as well as the entire database for both on MHF.

 

Im in the CC but not the C&CC yet I have stayed on a few CS sites without being a member. Most owners dont give a stuff if your a member or not.

[Tracker]

Barryd999 - 2013-05-26 10:21 AM

Im in the CC but not the C&CC yet I have stayed on a few CS sites without being a member. Most owners dont give a stuff if your a member or not.

 

We are no longer in either club and don't have their handbooks but as I recall they did specify CLs / CSs for members only.

The clubs used to say that was part of their licensing arrangement, that each club's 5 van sites were only available to members of that specific club - has that changed?

We sometimes did used to get asked for a membership card but only rarely in them days?

[sambukashot]

I have got started of the new website it's on the internet so you can see it (after a long days work yesterday) It is only basic at the moment but i will have it finished off over the next few days.

I am working on the functionality at the moment and laying out some more features and adding content so it's a bit bare for its first showing, but have a look and you will get the idea: http://www.camperstops.org/

As always comments suggestions more than welcome!