Guest pelmetman Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 That was interesting B-)......................Horizon prog on fracking ;-)......................I still think in the interest of energy security I'd have a log burner :D.......... Although I fink as a fick bloke..............the US bonanza in shale gas will have an interesting affect on their foreign policy :-|
CliveH Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Very frustrating programme. nothing new was covered. As for us here in the UK, Shale gas reserves could make us virtually energy independent. Which considering we are (without Fracking) going to have to buy most of our energy from Eastern Europe should make the prospect of our sitting on top of huge Shale gas reserves a huge benefit. What frustrated me about the programme was it ignored the fact that the significant negative campaign against Fracking is actually spin from "Big Oil" because "Big Oil" has spent $Billions developing gas fields in Eastern Europe and building the pipelines across Europe so they can sell us energy at HUGE profit margins - but now - Wooops! It turns out we in the UK may not need their incredibly expensive energy because we sit on huge reserves of Shale gas !!! So we have a somewhat bizarre coalition on the Anti-Fracking side of so-called Environmentalists that think Carbon is a poison and CO2 is the devils breath (when in fact it is a vital component of the Carbon cycle and without it all life on the planet would die) and "Big Oil" (which Environmentalists profess to hate) because the last thing "Big Oil" wants is their expensive pipeline being made redundant by copious reserves of gas sitting right under our feet here in the UK. The first 30 min of this Horizon programme was a complete waste. What it is and how Shale gas got their could have been covered in less than 10 min. Much of the the rest of the programme where the reporter was saying 'oh wow!' this is huge at various storage facilities was totally superfluous. Very disappointing programme given the seriousness of our impending energy crisis and the role Shale gas could have in helping us avoid it. :-S
Guest pelmetman Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 I didn't know that Clive *-)..................that's the trouble now days there's so much spin, ordinary people have a job sorting the wheat from the chaff :-S......... I can't say I'm surprised though *-).....................big business has no morals >:-(
CliveH Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Good background article here Dave:- http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article40402.html
Guest Had Enough Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-06-20 8:17 AM I didn't know that Clive *-)..................that's the trouble now days there's so much spin, ordinary people have a job sorting the wheat from the chaff :-S......... I can't say I'm surprised though *-).....................big business has no morals >:-( I disagree entirely. Many businesses have very good morals and throughout the last couple of centuries we have had employers whose morals and treatment of their employees have been examples to everyone. Cadbury's, Lord Leverhulme (Port Sunlight) and today M & S and John Lewis. Apart from which it is in the interests of big business to behave morally as we live in an age of instant communication and media scrutiny and any company found to be behaving reprehensibly is always exposed eventually. We notice the odd few multinationals who use their skills to avoid tax but they are a few compared to the vast number of firms that contribute enormously to our economy and make us all richer. Paradoxically, companies such as Google, which are astute in their tax affairs are often the finest employers to work for. Google's treatment of its staff and their salaries and perks are legendary and there is no way that I could emulate that in my relatively tiny firm. Your attitude to 'big' business is well documented but you are wrong to assert that all big business has no moral values. Funnily enough the very worst and nastiest treatment of individuals is usually meted out by small businesses, dodgy builders and other tradesmen come to mind. These rogues have nothing to lose. They rip people off, fold and set up a phoenix company the following week. Big business cannot behave like that as it's simply not possible when you have a massive PLC.
Symbol Owner Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Had Enough - 2013-06-20 1:49 PM Many businesses have very good morals and throughout the last couple of centuries we have had employers whose morals and treatment of their employees have been examples to everyone. Cadbury's, Lord Leverhulme (Port Sunlight) and today M & S and John Lewis. Apart from which it is in the interests of big business to behave morally as we live in an age of instant communication and media scrutiny and any company found to be behaving reprehensibly is always exposed eventually. We notice the odd few multinationals who use their skills to avoid tax but they are a few compared to the vast number of firms that contribute enormously to our economy and make us all richer. Paradoxically, companies such as Google, which are astute in their tax affairs are often the finest employers to work for. Google's treatment of its staff and their salaries and perks are legendary and there is no way that I could emulate that in my relatively tiny firm. Your attitude to 'big' business is well documented but you are wrong to assert that all big business has no moral values. Funnily enough the very worst and nastiest treatment of individuals is usually meted out by small businesses, dodgy builders and other tradesmen come to mind. These rogues have nothing to lose. They rip people off, fold and set up a phoenix company the following week. Big business cannot behave like that as it's simply not possible when you have a massive PLC. I largely agree with you Frank, but I have just read a fascinating article (roughly) on this subject. Sorry it is a bit lengthy ( and from the Guardian -- again!) -- but see what you think................ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/19/decline-fall-american-society-unravelled Cheers, enjoy your holiday.......... Colin.
Guest pelmetman Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Had Enough - 2013-06-20 1:49 PM pelmetman - 2013-06-20 8:17 AM I didn't know that Clive *-)..................that's the trouble now days there's so much spin, ordinary people have a job sorting the wheat from the chaff :-S......... I can't say I'm surprised though *-).....................big business has no morals >:-( I disagree entirely. Many businesses have very good morals and throughout the last couple of centuries we have had employers whose morals and treatment of their employees have been examples to everyone. Cadbury's, Lord Leverhulme (Port Sunlight) and today M & S and John Lewis. Apart from which it is in the interests of big business to behave morally as we live in an age of instant communication and media scrutiny and any company found to be behaving reprehensibly is always exposed eventually. We notice the odd few multinationals who use their skills to avoid tax but they are a few compared to the vast number of firms that contribute enormously to our economy and make us all richer. Paradoxically, companies such as Google, which are astute in their tax affairs are often the finest employers to work for. Google's treatment of its staff and their salaries and perks are legendary and there is no way that I could emulate that in my relatively tiny firm. Your attitude to 'big' business is well documented but you are wrong to assert that all big business has no moral values. Funnily enough the very worst and nastiest treatment of individuals is usually meted out by small businesses, dodgy builders and other tradesmen come to mind. These rogues have nothing to lose. They rip people off, fold and set up a phoenix company the following week. Big business cannot behave like that as it's simply not possible when you have a massive PLC. Which of the big banks would you say are a shinning example of good practice then Frank? ;-)
Guest pelmetman Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Symbol Owner - 2013-06-20 2:10 PM I largely agree with you Frank, but I have just read a fascinating article (roughly) on this subject. Sorry it is a bit lengthy ( and from the Guardian -- again!) -- but see what you think................ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/19/decline-fall-american-society-unravelled Cheers, enjoy your holiday.......... Colin. Good link Colin ;-)........................I especially like this bit :D................ "only suckers still play by the rules". A banking motto if ever I heard one >:-)
Dave225 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 CliveH - 2013-06-20 7:13 AM Very frustrating programme. nothing new was covered. As for us here in the UK, Shale gas reserves could make us virtually energy independent. Which considering we are (without Fracking) going to have to buy most of our energy from Eastern Europe should make the prospect of our sitting on top of huge Shale gas reserves a huge benefit. What frustrated me about the programme was it ignored the fact that the significant negative campaign against Fracking is actually spin from "Big Oil" because "Big Oil" has spent $Billions developing gas fields in Eastern Europe and building the pipelines across Europe so they can sell us energy at HUGE profit margins - but now - Wooops! It turns out we in the UK may not need their incredibly expensive energy because we sit on huge reserves of Shale gas !!! So we have a somewhat bizarre coalition on the Anti-Fracking side of so-called Environmentalists that think Carbon is a poison and CO2 is the devils breath (when in fact it is a vital component of the Carbon cycle and without it all life on the planet would die) and "Big Oil" (which Environmentalists profess to hate) because the last thing "Big Oil" wants is their expensive pipeline being made redundant by copious reserves of gas sitting right under our feet here in the UK. The first 30 min of this Horizon programme was a complete waste. What it is and how Shale gas got their could have been covered in less than 10 min. Much of the the rest of the programme where the reporter was saying 'oh wow!' this is huge at various storage facilities was totally superfluous. Very disappointing programme given the seriousness of our impending energy crisis and the role Shale gas could have in helping us avoid it. :-S Clive, I did not see the programme so cannot comment on the vaidity or otherwise of any points raised, but suspect tv licence has played a part in that never let the truth distort a good story. All the major oil companies in the world have been involved in fracking as an integral part of their desire to get resources from the ground so the will not be against it at all. Plus as market prices are invariably driven by middle men speculators blaming the oil companies is disingenous. Having also been personally involved in fracking throughout my working life I can say that as usual scare stores abound. You do recall that when Stephenson brought out the Rocket there was a great fear that people would collapse at traveling at 10 mph on a railway, Now we travel at 1000's of mph without trouble. Fracking is a skilled operation and in virtually all cases will have no detrimental effect. Yes, sometimes things go wrong but the chances of that affecting surface life is non existent and you have more chance of being hit by lightning etc. The main reason for doing it is to get a reliable and controlled source of energy. It will never be cheaper as Governments will a;lways see to that. When Forties first got going BP were producing oil at $1 per barrel but the Government ensured the selling price was market value so they could get the tax. So your choice is do nothing and rely on a foreign dictator telling you what you will get and pay, or do something for yourself.
CliveH Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Dave 225 I think you misread my words. I am actually all for Fracking - I have seen the figures for lower energy costs, lower CO2 emissions ( :-D) and the benefit to the local economy and the national economy of the USA and could not believe that the numpties over here in Europe somehow wanted to stifle this technology! Where we would differ I suspect is that you assume that because Oil companies extract Shale Gas then all Oil Companies will be pro-fracking. From what I have read in the pinks and other economic papers, there are some Oil Companies that have spend $Billions on gas pipelines from Yamal and Siberia and these pipelines could be redundant if other Oil Companies start extracting Shale Gas from right on our doorstep. You infer that my choice is to :- "So your choice is do nothing and rely on a foreign dictator telling you what you will get and pay, or do something for yourself." When I want us to do exactly the opposite - am very pro-fracking. We have a substantial oil extraction plant near us at Wytch Farm - and last time I went past it - you would never know it was there. The very LAST thing I want is for the UK's energy supply to be dictated to us by foreign interests.
Guest Had Enough Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-06-20 2:21 PM Which of the big banks would you say are a shinning example of good practice then Frank? ;-) I don't really care. Some of them behaved disgracefully, but not all. My point is about one thing only. You said that big business has no morals. That is not true. Many businesses have morals but they don't make the headlines. All over Britain companies large and small are beavering away, contributing to the economy, providing employment and boosting exports and paying their taxes. Just one example is JCB, a great British success story and there are thousands more, large and small. Just because programmes such as Watchdog and Rogue Traders expose the small businesses that rip off people, doesn't mean that all small traders are dishonest and have no morals. Some customers have no morals and will lie and cheat if it saves them a few quid. But not all of them are like that. As I said, larger companies have a bigger incentive to play fair and as I also said, in the last few years the Internet and investigative journalists have made it even harder to cheat. The examples that we all know about are proof of this, eventually someone blows the whistle and the rogues suffer. I firmly believe that, generally speaking, business is straighter than it's ever been. Have we any idea what went on in the past before companies of any size could be put under the spotlight so easily?
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Had Enough - 2013-06-21 5:44 PM Just because programmes such as Watchdog and Rogue Traders expose the small businesses that rip off people, doesn't mean that all small traders are dishonest and have no morals. You have a point there ;-).......................because they don't have the budget to attack the proper crooks *-).....................ie the PLC's.............as plc's they can afford to buy the odd politician or two ;-) ........... To be frank, Frank 8-)...............I'm surprised that you suck up to the back stabbing classes so much *-)...........have you no sense of self worth :-S
Guest Had Enough Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 pelmetman - 2013-06-21 11:44 PM Had Enough - 2013-06-21 5:44 PM Just because programmes such as Watchdog and Rogue Traders expose the small businesses that rip off people, doesn't mean that all small traders are dishonest and have no morals. You have a point there ;-).......................because they don't have the budget to attack the proper crooks *-).....................ie the PLC's.............as plc's they can afford to buy the odd politician or two ;-) ........... To be frank, Frank 8-)...............I'm surprised that you suck up to the back stabbing classes so much *-)...........have you no sense of self worth :-S You're absolutely right. How could I have been so blind? I see now that ALL big businesses are corrupt and have no morals. I realise now that ALL businesses of any size have a few MPs on their payroll and that when it appears that one of their employees may be about to blow the whistle they probably have them quietly assassinated. Thank you for finally persuading me to open my eyes to this stinking cesspit of corruption. The next time I shop in Tesco, John Lewis and M & S, or buy anything from any number of large companies, I shall do so in the knowledge that they are really just a bunch of immoral thieves who would kill their grannies to increase the share price a bit. No more sucking up for me, I now know the TRUTH! And as for fracking, we're all going to die in earthquakes or from the poisonous gasses that will escape from the massive holes they'll drill, the bastards! I'm off to Australia as soon as I can sell the camper.
Symbol Owner Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 No, No, H.E.! Australia Has Muslims!!!! New Zealand is the place -- and they are campervan/motorhome-friendly ( even if the 'locals' do call them 'maggots!) >:-) :D Colin.
Guest Peter James Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 Had Enough - 2013-06-20 1:49 PM Many businesses have very good morals and throughout the last couple of centuries we have had employers whose morals and treatment of their employees have been examples to everyone... today M & S are you havin a laugh? £16m for Marc Bolland, clothes made in the same sweatshops as Primark but they charge twice as much for them? At least Primark has volunteered to pay compensation to those injured in the factory collapse...
Guest Peter James Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 I remember the TV adverts for coal miners in the 1970's, promising them lifetime careers as we have 100 years supply of coal. Then the £50k redundancy settlements in the '80's (at a time when the average house price was £25k and police constables were buying them with their overtime payments for the miners strike) to divide the working miners and further the Tory vendetta against their Union at our expense. The Government wasted our coal mining industry for their political dogma. Why should the gas industry be any different?
Guest Had Enough Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 Peter James - 2013-06-22 12:58 PM Had Enough - 2013-06-20 1:49 PM Many businesses have very good morals and throughout the last couple of centuries we have had employers whose morals and treatment of their employees have been examples to everyone... today M & S are you havin a laugh? £16m for Marc Bolland, clothes made in the same sweatshops as Primark but they charge twice as much for them? At least Primark has volunteered to pay compensation to those injured in the factory collapse... You make a very good point that I hadn't considered. If they hadn't paid so much for Bolland that factory would never have collapsed. Anyway, I think that it's time we stopped importing all these goods from low-wage countries. What does it matter if ordinary people have to pay three times the price for theirs and their children's clothing? They'll manage somehow. Why should we care if the economies of Asian countries benefit from our trade? It's not our problem. Look what happened with South Korea. It was once a poor agrarian nation but we would insist on buying things from them and now they've got richer and richer, their workers earn more than ours and their factories are a direct threat to ours. We should make everything here in the UK. Ok, people would be much poorer as a result but what does that matter if our consciences are clear? Most of the problems are the responsibility of the governments of these countries. They have virtually no health and safety rules but the minute that anyone proposes regulation everyone is up in arms shouting about 'Health and safety gone mad, personal responsibility and the nanny state etc. etc. We even see it on this forum! What's the answer? Well, I think that we should nationalise all these terrible British companies that have the gall to shop around the world for the best prices for their customers. That worked last time didn't it?
nowtelse2do Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 Series 2 coming up..!!!!! Ok guy's I'm sat down and ready.......GO. :D Dave
Guest Had Enough Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 Peter James - 2013-06-22 1:06 PM I remember the TV adverts for coal miners in the 1970's, promising them lifetime careers as we have 100 years supply of coal. Then the £50k redundancy settlements in the '80's (at a time when the average house price was £25k and police constables were buying them with their overtime payments for the miners strike) to divide the working miners and further the Tory vendetta against their Union at our expense. The Government wasted our coal mining industry for their political dogma. Why should the gas industry be any different? Once again I find myself agreeing with you. They were all responsible, Labour as well. Labour closed three times more pits during their time in power before the miners' strike and then the horrible Tories finished them off. I think that when any industry loses money and is no longer viable we should pour money in to keep it going. Just think, we'd still have all those lovely pit villages with happy well-paid pitmen trotting off to the Miners Welfare Club for their evening pint, rosy-cheeked children playing in the streets happy in the knowledge that they too will soon be able to follow their fathers down the mines. We'd have lots of lovely old cotton mills here in Lancashire and the sound of clogs clattering along the pavement as they happily go in to tend their looms would bring joy to our hearts. No more need to import clothing from funny-sounding places in the Far East, we could make it all here in Accrington. The workers would be happy, they'd have their Austin Allegros and Morris Marinas, two weeks' paid holiday in Blackpool - those were the days eh? And as for this fracking, who needs it? Whilst we have all those lovely Arabs who are happy to sell us their oil why should we bother trying to extract our own fossil fuels? I mean, that North Sea gas was a right waste of time, why did we bother with all that mucking about. Mark my words, this fracking will be another natural gas disaster, no use to anyone! It's about time we had a bit of sense on this forum, well done that man!
Guest Had Enough Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 nowtelse2do - 2013-06-22 3:31 PM Series 2 coming up..!!!!! Ok guy's I'm sat down and ready.......GO. :D Dave You should laugh chummy! Tests have proven that fracking on the Lancashire plain will result in widespread geological disasters with a very good chance that Bacup and Rawtenstall will eventually slide into Yorkshire. Mark my words, we're all doomed! My Grandad was from Stacksteads, he'll be turning in his grave. He hated Yorkshiremen.
nowtelse2do Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 Had Enough - 2013-06-22 3:42 PM nowtelse2do - 2013-06-22 3:31 PM Series 2 coming up..!!!!! Ok guy's I'm sat down and ready.......GO. :D Dave You should laugh chummy! Tests have proven that fracking on the Lancashire plain will result in widespread geological disasters with a very good chance that Bacup and Rawtenstall will eventually slide into Yorkshire. Mark my words, we're all doomed! My Grandad was from Stacksteads, he'll be turning in his grave. He hated Yorkshiremen. OH HELL..!!!! does that mean your mate antony will be a next door neighbour.8-) :-D What's this chummy, what happend to old chap? Dave By the way, don't know if your Grandad or you knew but a large part of Lancashire was part of Yorkshire once
Guest pelmetman Posted June 23, 2013 Posted June 23, 2013 nowtelse2do - 2013-06-22 4:10 PM What's this chummy, what happend to old chap? Dave Chummy I believe is what fishermen call shark bait Dave ;-)
Dave225 Posted June 23, 2013 Posted June 23, 2013 CliveH - 2013-06-20 6:22 PM Dave 225 I think you misread my words. I am actually all for Fracking - I have seen the figures for lower energy costs, lower CO2 emissions ( :-D) and the benefit to the local economy and the national economy of the USA and could not believe that the numpties over here in Europe somehow wanted to stifle this technology! Where we would differ I suspect is that you assume that because Oil companies extract Shale Gas then all Oil Companies will be pro-fracking. From what I have read in the pinks and other economic papers, there are some Oil Companies that have spend $Billions on gas pipelines from Yamal and Siberia and these pipelines could be redundant if other Oil Companies start extracting Shale Gas from right on our doorstep. You infer that my choice is to :- "So your choice is do nothing and rely on a foreign dictator telling you what you will get and pay, or do something for yourself." When I want us to do exactly the opposite - am very pro-fracking. We have a substantial oil extraction plant near us at Wytch Farm - and last time I went past it - you would never know it was there. The very LAST thing I want is for the UK's energy supply to be dictated to us by foreign interests. One slight correction. Oil Companies do indeed build the pipelines but they are owned by the countries through which they pass and it is them who would be anti anything here in the UK,. The oil companies as you know are global and will happily move from country to country to do business, leave, and then return at a later date. All are looking at alternatives to direct extraction of fossil fuels. Some have worked, others not so good. It is not so long ago that Shell looked at nuclear in a big way, then dropped it, and will no doubt look again. There is also the very hoary story of the oil companies buying up the man who invented cars to run on water in the 50's, and buried the technology never to be seen again. Sounds good though. The other thing that many people forget is that oil is not primarily used for fuel, it is the raw material for nearly all our manufacturing industries so if gas can be extracted to take away some of the demand for oil, then it will all last longer.
Guest pelmetman Posted June 27, 2013 Posted June 27, 2013 According to the BBC this morning it appears fracking is the new North Sea Oil, we Have Enough for decades just in Lancashire :-D................. Just the nimby's holding things up >:-)
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