Traction control on an X250

[spospe]

We are about to order an Autosleeper Warwick Duo and are debating if adding Traction Control (in place of Bluetooth) would be a worthwhile option.

 

Our present Transit (rear wheel drive) has Traction Assist fitted and this has helped us in the past and we are wondering if the same effect will be present with a Front Wheel drive vehicle. This spring we pulled a bogged-down IH Rio off a soft grass pitch with ease using the Transit when all other efforts had failed (pushing, shoving bits of carpet under the wheels and rather desperately, using bits of timber to try and lever it out).

 

Has anyone got an X250 based motorhome with Traction Control and have you found it to be of benefit on soft grass, snow, or other slippery conditions?

 

[colin]

The standard ASR as fitted to our euro4 van is not up to much, the traction plus on the euro5 vans IF it's a viscous coupling may well be a lot better, have a viscous coupling system on one of my 4x4's and it works very well

[Derek Uzzell]

This recent thread discusses Ducato traction-aid systems:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/New-Fiat-Ducato-Traction-Plus/31257/#M367650

 

Traction-assisting systems are likely to be more effective on RWD vehicles than on FWD ones as there's normally proportionally more weight on the back-axle of the former than on the front-axle of the latter (and the more weight the more potential grip). The back-axle of a RWD vehicle (normally) only provides drive, whereas the front-axle of a FWD vehicle also has to steer. Then there's weight-transfer, with weight moving backwards under acceleration - good for grip for RWD vehicles: bad for those with FWD. At slow speed on poor surfaces (like wet grass) it will always be more challenging for a driver to maximise grip with a FWD vehicle than with a RWD one.

 

My 2005 Transit FWD Mk 6-based motorhome has what Ford calls BTCS (Brake Traction Control System) that (when enabled) reduces wheelspin at the driven wheels up to 25mph. Plainly (from its name) the system exploits the vehicle's ABS and (presumably) moderates the motor's power output. However, I've never had cause to trigger the BTCS system, so I don't know how effective it is.

 

Much of the problem with motorhomes getting stuck on soft surfaces is due to the driver not supporting the vehicle's wheels and/or not being careful with the throttle when moving off. A 2-wheel-drive motorhome well-embedded in a soft surface may need to be towed out whatever clever electronic traction-assist system it has and irrespective of which axle is driven.

 

As I understand it, Peugeot Boxers come as standard with ABS and EBA (Emergency Braking Assistance), but without a traction-control system. However, if one specifies the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) option, traction-control is included.

 

Boxer specifications and pricing can be found here:

 

http://business.peugeot.co.uk/Resources/Content/PDFs/peugeot-boxer-prices-and-specifications.pdf

 

and the "ESP (including traction control)" option is said to cost £372.

 

The lack of traction-control on a Boxer-based motorhome is mentioned here:

 

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/forum/tech/traction-control-peugeot-boxer-good-wet-grass-feild

 

Personally, I've no interest whatsoever in paying for a Bluetooth system in a vehicle, so your apparent 'either-or' choice wouldn't apply as far as I'm concerned. But ESP is a valuable safety feature and traction-control SHOULD be useful for a motorhome, so (assuming Auto-Sleepers isn't charging an extortionate amount for that option) I suggest you go for it.

 

(I also suggest you check what you would actually be getting for your money - whether it's just ESP and traction-control, or whether the Traction Plus system available on Ducato might be included too.)

 

 

 

 

[spospe]

Thanks to you both for your input, I will ask Autosleeper for clarification as to exactly what "Traction Control" consists of.

 

I personally would like a Limited Slip differential, and if this can be achieved electronically via the anti-lock braking system then I will go for it. If it is just a fancy power-limiting device to the driven wheels, then I will save my money.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Limited-slip differentials are described here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited-slip_differential

 

It's unlikely that a 'genuine' limited-slip differential will be fitted to any FWD light commercial vehicle as the extra cost, complexity and potentially unpleasant effect on the steering of an LSD will be disincentives. Besides which light commercial vehicles (ignoring motorhome derivatives) won't venture off-road that often. VW fits a sophisticated differential to the more powerful version of the latest Golf GTi, but that's justified given the vehicle's performance capability.

 

 

Don't overlook the fact that the option for the Boxer is (apparently) ESP + traction-control, not traction-control alone. Even though a traction-control system that modulates engine power and exploits ABS (which is what most of these systems do on FWD vehicles) may not give you the same grip levels as a 'mechanical' LSD, such a system should still provide a good deal more grip on poor surfaces than having no traction-control. And there are also the potential benefits of ESP to consider...

 

[spospe]

I have now raised the question with Peugeot (a frustrating experience, as they kept passing me from person to person in different locations) and finally they have promised me a full answer in, "one to three days", when they do, I will report back here.

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-08-12 7:41 AM

 

Don't overlook the fact that the option for the Boxer is (apparently) ESP + traction-control, not traction-control alone. Even though a traction-control system that modulates engine power and exploits ABS (which is what most of these systems do on FWD vehicles) may not give you the same grip levels as a 'mechanical' LSD, such a system should still provide a good deal more grip on poor surfaces than having no traction-control. And there are also the potential benefits of ESP to consider...

 

Peugeot Technical Support have just called me back and confirmed that their package consist of both ESP (Electronic Stability Program) and Traction Control.

 

The method of operation for the Traction Control is that it uses the anti-lock brake sensors on the front wheels to detect wheel spin and when it does, it uses the brakes to slow the spinning wheel and allow power to be transmitted to the wheel with the most grip. At the same time engine power is reduced so as to maximise the chances of being able to drive off without getting bogged-down.

 

The ESP system is something more suited to a sports car than a van, but it is included as an 'add on' with Traction Control. The idea behind ESP, is to provide the van with an override system which will reduce power if the control system decides that you are going too fast for the circumstances (round a tight bend for example).

 

The present cost of Traction Control is £372 inc VAT but I am able to offset this a bit by not specifying Bluetooth, which will save £168, making the total additional cost £204, which I consider well worth spending.

[Derek Uzzell]

spospe - 2013-08-12 3:51 PM

 

The ESP system is something more suited to a sports car than a van, but it is included as an 'add on' with Traction Control. The idea behind ESP, is to provide the van with an override system which will reduce power if the control system decides that you are going too fast for the circumstances (round a tight bend for example).

 

 

I'd contest your "...more suited to a sports car than a van..." statement as, if a van starts to go out of control, the driver is likely to have a helluvalot more difficulty handling the situation than with a car.

 

I remember, on a "Fifth Gear" programme some 10 years ago, Tiff Needell driving Transit and Mercedes Sprinter panel-vans around a soaking-wet racing circuit to see which produced the fastest lap. The Transit had no electronic driver aids, but the Sprinter did. The Mercedes's lap was a good deal slower than the Transit's because its 'safety' electroniics prevented Needell from driving like a hooligan, but the Sprinter was always under control and stayed on the circuit. Conversely, the Transit could be (and was) seriously over-driven with the vehicle hovering on the ragged edge of control during the fastest lap and spinning wildly when Needell was practising.

 

£204 will be a wise investment.

 

More on ESC/ESP here:

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control

[spospe]

The consensus seems to be that Traction Control is a, GOOD THING, but I really would like to hear personal feedback from anyone who has had practical experience of it in use.

 

Is there anyone out there who has the system fitted and can comment?

[lennyhb]

We have the standard Traction control it helps once moving on wet grass and mud but tends to cut in at too higher wheel revolutions to be that much use that is my opinion of it .

 

The Traction Plus now available is much better, I believe it has an electronic controlled diff, Fiat claim it will get you started on wet grass, owners we have met with it seem very impressed.

 

You need to establish if you are being offered Traction Control or Traction Plus.

 

Fiat Camper Traction Plus

[spospe]

Lenny

 

Thanks for this update, I will check to see what is on offer. My new van will be on a Peugeot, so this may well affect what I get.

[Derek Uzzell]

spospe

 

Fiat's "Traction+" system was discussed here:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/New-Fiat-Ducato-Traction-Plus/31257/#M367650

 

It's available on a number of Fiat models including Ducato.

 

According to the Ducato April 2013 price-list, the option of ESP (including ASR & HBA) is priced at £350. This would be equivalent to the Boxer option-package "...of both ESP (Electronic Stability Program) and Traction Control" you mentioned above.

 

"Traction+" for a Ducato is priced at £150, and is linked to the 'winter' or 'multiseason' tyre options that each cost £200. This makes sense, as there's little point having a system designed to provide extra grip without the vehicle's tyres being potentially able to supply that grip.

 

Fiat's advertising and press reports all suggest that Traction+ is simply a clever extension of the ASR/ESP system and comprises no 'mechanical' alteration/addition.

 

Peugeot's "Grip Control" system is the equivalent to Fiat's "Traction+". "Grip Control" is part of the specification of some Peugeot cars and of ATV versions of the Bipper, Partner and Expert vans. However (based on the July 2013 Boxer Specification and Pricing list) "Grip Control" does not appear to be a current Boxer option.

 

I'm surprised that you continue to agonise over this.

 

For around £200 you'd be getting a traction-control system AND an electronic stability control (ESP) system. ESP is a potential life-saver in it's own right and, even if the Boxer's traction-control system is not superior to the equivalent system fitted to lennyhb's Ducato-based motorhome, it still must be better than having no traction-control system.

 

Wet grass offers minimal grip and (on a 2--wheel-drive vehicle) if one driven-wheel starts to spin and there's no mechanical/electronic arrangement to send torque to the other driven-wheel, you'll be stuck.

 

A FWD Peugot Boxer with traction-control may not have as good potential 'moving off' grip on slippery surfaces as your current traction-control-equipped RWD Duetto, but it will (in principle) have twice the potential 'moving off' grip on slippery surfaces of a Peugot Boxer without the traction-control option.

 

What a purely electronic traction-control system (however clever) won't be able to provide is the level of grip offered by a genuine locking differential, but - for a motorhome making forays on to grassed campsites - any traction-control system must be better than none.

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-08-19 8:05 AM

 

I'm surprised that you continue to agonise over this.

 

 

I'm not agonising Derek, I'm just curious. Thanks for the detailed feedback though.

[Derek Uzzell]

Obtaining feedback regarding the effectiveness of the traction-control system fitted to a Warwick Duo will be complicated by the fact that Auto-Sleepers builds on the Peugeot Boxer.

 

It would seem from MMM's April 2009 Warwick Duo report (and the Auto-Sleepers 2011 brochure) that traction-control used to be part of the model's standard specification (and that an upgrade to the 3.0litre motor may also have been possible). Now, it appears that only a 2.2litre 130bhp motor is available for a Warwick Duo and there's no mention of traction-control in the standard spec.

 

As you will be aware the 2.2litre motor is a Ford derivative, but the question is "How much of what's under the Boxer's bonnet is Ford and how much is Peugeot?" I don't think this was ever explored when the X250 'juddering' fiasco was going on, but there's a strong likelihood that the electronics that manage a Boxer's traction-control system differ from those of a Ducato. Consequently, if you want genuinely representative feedback, you will really need to target owners of X250 Boxers. (And, of course, it's possible that the ASR system fitted to Euro V Boxers wlll be superior to that of Euro 4 Boxers - or vice versa!)

 

It doesn't look like an equivalent to Fiat's "Traction+" is currently available for a Boxer, so your choice will be between ASR/ESP at around £200 or no ASR/ESP. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

 

[George Collings]

Up to four years ago an old fashioned mechanical limited slip diff was available as a factory fit only option on all Sevel built vehicles. Even the manufacturers UK marketing departments were unaware of its availability.

 

It had to be ordered by the dealer fo rinstallation on the Sevel production line.

 

I will do some more research if that is still the case.

 

It is my beliefe based on over fifty years experince that one of the main reasons for poor traction is stiff suspension. This allows the sligtest uneveness in the ground to unload diagonally opposite wheels so the driven one spins.

 

In eight years and 60+k miles in my FWD but softly sprung VW T4 coachbuilt I never once broke traction on grass ice or snow.

[Brian Kirby]

In 2005/6 we had a Fiat 2.8JTD based motorhome that had traction control. It worked as described above, by using the ABS to brake a spinning wheel while concurrently reducing power output. The only time I really needed it, on a snowy, sloping, exit from a site in Germany, it was not successful. The effect of adding drag by braking one wheel while reducing power, simply meant that the van staggered to a standstill on the hill without wheelspin. Sometimes, on fresh snow, wheelspin can be an advantage, and a vehicle can scrabble its way out. The electronic interventions prevented this, but didn't solve our predicament. I was about to try again with the t/c switched, off when the site owner turned up with his 4wd T4 and a towrope! :-) So, I never got to find out if less t/c and more wheelspin would have worked.

 

On that basis I would say it is no miracle cure, but trying to get 3.4 tonnes of FWD motorhome up a steepish, snow covered, slope, from a virtual standing start, was never going to be easy. However, as Derek has said, the ESP element is almost certainly much more valuable as a safety aid than the t/c is likely to prove under similar conditions. That said, I think in easier conditions, mainly on level ground, the system would probably have some modest benefits, but it won't turn a motorhome into snow-cat!.

 

What I think I would ask Peugeot is whether it is the default setting, or whether you have to switch it on to engage it and, if the former, whether it can be switched off at will when it seems to bring no benefit.

[George Collings]

This company still offers a LSD but it appears now only as a retro fit rather than factory build.

http://www.fam-auto.com

 

 

Sevals are available with factory fit 4X4 that normally operates as FWD but powers the rear axle when the FW start to loosw traction. I have not established the costs but no doubt the extra weight would eat into payload.

 

Both the computer controlled vehicle stability and traction control systems utilise the vehicles ABS system to apply the brakes to correct impending loss of control or wheelspin.

 

I have never seen any reports of side by side testing to compare TCS with traditional LSD.

[Derek Uzzell]

The cost of the FAM-Automobiles Boxer modifications are given here:

 

http://www.fam-auto.com/downloads_PDF/pdf_mr/tarif_pgt_vu_mr_1_sem_2013.pdf

 

For €2906 one would get a limited-slip differential, under-body protective plates, raised suspension and M+S tyres.

 

http://www.fam-auto.com/Downloads_PDF/PDF_MR/pgt_boxer_mr.pdf

 

I was under the impression that the 4x4 option for X250s wasn’t a SEVEL factory-fitted one. That (like the pre-2006 range) the vehicle was converted to 4WD by a French company named Dangel.

 

http://www.dangel.com/index.html?newlg=E

 

http://www.dangel.com/mediadb/4033-B%20Notice%20V50%20FIAT%2006-09%20MULTILINGUES%20bic.pdf

 

I believe that the SEVEL factory recognises Dangel as an ‘official’ 4x4 converter and that one can order a Dangel 4WD-converted vehicle via a Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot agent. However, I'm not sure (for Boxers, Ducatos, Relays) if the conversion itself is carried out in the Italian SEVEL factory. I do remember a letter in a French motorhome magazine from an owner of a Dangel-converted Ducato with a transmission-related problem where Dangel was trying to blame Fiat and Fiat was trying to blame Dangel.

 

It’s evident that the “Traction Plus” system available for Ducato is enabled by a dashboard button, but an equivalent system does not seem to be offered for Boxer. It seems that the Boxer’s ESP system may now include goodies like a ‘hill-start holder’ that one might expect to be useful on a heavy-ish motorhome.

 

I don’t know if one can button-push disable a Boxer’s traction-control system when it might be advantageous to do so (eg. on snowy/icy surfaces), but being able to do so seems to be the norm so I’d expect it to be possible. Commonsense would be to have traction-control engaged as default with disablement as a driver choice. Similarly, even if traction-control were disabled, the rest of the system (ABS, ESP, etc.) would remain operative. As Brian says, Peugeot (or Auto-Sleepers) should be able to advise.

 

These are the features advertised for Ducato’s ESP system

 

ASR (Anti Slip Regulation - helps avoid slipping when starting off)

Hill Holder (easier to start uphill)

LAC (Load Adaptive Control – improves stability when the load is not distributed uniformly)

HBA (Hydraulic Brake Assist – extra braking force for emergency situations)

MSR (Motor Schleppmoment Regelung – helps avoiding slipping when you shift down too quickly)

ABS (Antilock Braking System – prevents skidding when braking) always standard, even without ESP.

 

If similar features are part of Boxer’s ESP and the cost of that option (on a motorhome priced around £46k) is about £200, why would any buyer choose not to opt for ESP?

 

[spospe]

Thanks for all the detailed advice from everyone. What my simple original question does illustrate, is just how difficult it can be to get a simple answer to a simple question.

 

It should not be necessary for me to ask the wise and knowledgeable of this Forum, I should be able to get the answer from either the dealer, or Autosleeper, or the manufacturer (in this case Peugeot). In practice, the first two haven't a clue and the manufacturer's customer support, whilst willing to help, was reduced to reading one of their own brochures and interpreting the 'techno speak' therein, in order to give me an educated guess.

 

The bottom line as I write, is that no one has been able to tell me with authority exactly what I will be getting and how it works. No one knows if the Peugeot Traction Control is the same as the Fiat Traction Plus. This is a ludicrous situation.

 

I have now ordered the vehicle and specified the Traction Control option, because as Derek says, the vehicle stability feature will be worth the cost on its own.

 

When I eventually do get a full answer, I will post it here, but don't hold your breath.

[Derek Uzzell]

spospe - 2013-08-24 11:02 AM

 

...No one knows if the Peugeot Traction Control is the same as the Fiat Traction Plus...

 

The optional traction-control system for a Boxer will not be the same as the "Traction Plus" option available for Ducato. As I said earlier

 

"Peugeot's "Grip Control" system is the equivalent to Fiat's "Traction+". "Grip Control" is part of the specification of some Peugeot cars and of ATV versions of the Bipper, Partner and Expert vans. However (based on the July 2013 Boxer Specification and Pricing list) "Grip Control" does not appear to be a current Boxer option."

 

There'a description of "Grip Control" (on a Peugeot 3008 Crossover) here

 

http://www.spirepeugeot.co.uk/news/peugeot-grip-control.html

 

and you'll see that this closely matches the description of "Traction Plus".

 

I also highlighted earlier that the 2.2litre motor fitted to Boxer - being essentially a Ford unit - should be expected to have different electronics to those of a Ducato. So, although one might anticipate a Boxer being able to have ASR, ESP, etc, (because a Transit has equivalent features), an option like Fiat's on-demand "Traction Plus" may not be possible for a 2.2litre Boxer (as Transit has no direct equivalent).

 

You should be able to confirm from Peugeot whether the optional traction-contriol system offered for current Boxers is the same as the "Grip Control" system available on certain other Peugeot vehicles.

 

There's little point asking Auto-Sleepers, a dealership selling Peugeot-based motorhomes, or Peugeot's customer support whether a Boxer's traction-control system is the same as Fiat's "Traction Plus". These people should know about Peugeot Boxers, but there's no reason to believe they'll be familiar with Fiats.

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-08-25 9:06 AM

 

There's little point asking Auto-Sleepers, a dealership selling Peugeot-based motorhomes, or Peugeot's customer support whether a Boxer's traction-control system is the same as Fiat's "Traction Plus". These people should know about Peugeot Boxers, but there's no reason to believe they'll be familiar with Fiats.

 

 

Au contraire Derek, this is exactly what I expect. I expect someone in a competitive situation to be able to explain to me clearly and simply what the advantages of their product are over the opposition.

 

I most certainly expect, demand even, that the person doing the selling is able to explain clearly and simply what their system does and how it works..

 

I will report back to this thread when I do have something definite to say as to what Peugeot are offering and how it compares to the Fiat version. Promise.

[spospe]

The following is the reply in full from Peugeot.

 

"The traction control is not a mechanical LSD. It electronically transfers

power to the wheel with most grip and is useful in muddy fields, ice and

snow.

The Boxer is a joint venture with FIAT and it is likely to use the same

system."

 

I am not impressed with the answer and when I do eventually get to speak with someone who actually does know how the system works and what it does, I will post the answer here.

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Well they haven't exactly gone into it "..in depth.." , have they.... :-S

 

...and "..is likely to use the same system..", is a poor response..

[Derek Uzzell]

spospe - 2013-09-05 5:03 PM

 

The following is the reply in full from Peugeot.

 

"The traction control is not a mechanical LSD. It electronically transfers

power to the wheel with most grip and is useful in muddy fields, ice and

snow.

The Boxer is a joint venture with FIAT and it is likely to use the same

system."

 

I am not impressed with the answer and when I do eventually get to speak with someone who actually does know how the system works and what it does, I will post the answer here.

 

It may be worth you looking at the more comprehensive version of the X250 Ducato User handbook that can be downloaded from the Fiat Camper website. The file is 2012_LUM_UK 603.81.947.pdf and there's a description of the ASR (Antislip Regulator) and Traction Plus systems on Pages 112 through 114.

 

It seems that (on a Ducato) Traction Plus integrates the ASR system, with the latter being the default and being suppressed when Traction Plus is selected. If the vehicle just has ASR, this can be deselected for, say, driving with snow chains. However, if the vehicle has Traction Plus, as the ASR dashboard On/Off button is replaced by a Traction Plus button, it doesn't seem possible to deselect ASR. (I'm not sure if that matters: I'm just saying that's what seems to be the case.)

 

It's also worth noting the following advice:

 

"For the correct operation of the ESP and ASR systems, the tyres must absolutely be the same make and type on all wheels, in perfect condition and, above all, of the type, make and size specified."

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-09-18 6:53 PM

 

It's also worth noting the following advice:

 

"For the correct operation of the ESP and ASR systems, the tyres must absolutely be the same make and type on all wheels, in perfect condition and, above all, of the type, make and size specified."

 

This is also true for the Transit equipped with Traction Control and I have seen several queries on the Transit Forum answered by addressing these very points.

 

I am away now in Germany and have yet to have had the 'follow-up' email promised by Peugeot, so the final answer is still some way off.