candapack Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Collecting first MH this week, planning shortish France trip to get us started, then some longer trips from next year -but probably max 5/6 weeks any one time. In previous guise as UK only caravanners, have always used Propane. Our MH will take 2 x 13kg cylinders which, in our experience, would last a heck of a long time. (But you could be setting off with a full one and one which is not quite empty enough to exchange!) So, once again, looking for the benefit of your long experiences of continental travelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithR Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 when I go away and have a not quite empty bottle, I find my local dealer will exchange it as usual for a full one, but will hold it til I return with an empty to swap back. I use propane, but there are those who say butane burns better and lasts longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddies104 Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Hi and good luck with your first van.. Depends on what sites you use, if using sites with EHU then one tank would last you the length of your stay assuming you have a electric ring. If using Aires and dependent on gas, not a clue?,! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Strachan Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Hi and I hope you like the change to a MH. Propane as you know is better in cold conditions, so 2x 13Kgs should last you well for 5 to 6 weeks. Depends a lot on what you are doing, ie using shower in van, cooking 2 meals a day? We tend to use site showers and only cook once a day! If you are thinking about longer term, staying away, refillable LPG and Propane may be the way.Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Best bet is to switch to propane and then you are certain that whenever or wherever you go the gas will always work. It may be worth considering carrying a spare regulator as this item is the weak link in all 'modern' gas systems. It may be worth getting a third bottle from a car boot sale or similar and then you will always be able to go abroad with two full cylinders. Or you could consider one refillable bottle which with a Calor as a back up would ensure you can run forever whilst abroad. Refillable is an expensive set up but low cost running alternative that has its enthusiasts and its detractors and only you can decide if it is vfm for you and if you want or need it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I'm a very late convert to a refillable, wish I'd done it years ago now , especially as we rarely use sites, a single Gasit bottle and bits and bobs to fit it, and three European adaptors cost me £230, the initial fill cost me £16 compared to approx £45 with our previous Calor lites for almost the same quantity of gas, and instead of "rationing" our gas use as before we won't even have to think about it now, nor man handle bloody heavy bottles around ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Man Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 We have a Gaslow system. One 11kg bottle and one 6kg bottle. We visited France in early March for two weeks, (cold, windy and snowy). We had plenty of gas left when we returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Well worth the outlay for refillable's makes life so much easier, as for type of gas propane every time you can use it any time of year without problems. If you go for refillables's do bear in mind that if you fill up in the UK it is 100% propane in mainland Europe LPG is often a mix of propane/butane depending on time of year and country. We have 2 x 11kg cylinders, 11kg lasts us 2 - 3weeks in late summer, we never use hook ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 If you're starting from scratch with the cylinders, rather than pay out for two lots of deposits for *13kg exchange cylinders, as others have already said, you may as well put the money towards a refillable cylinder and a selection of adaptors... Although, I could see that there may be occasions where having a small(ish) spare "exchange" cylinder as a back up would/could be of benefit... (..have you got a cylinder left from when you were caravanning, that could act as a "spare"?) * It's also worth noting that the 13kg Calor cylinders are chuffin' heavy!! 8-) (around 60 odd lbs, I think?)..so two would make a sizable dent in your usable payload... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 One thing no one has yet said, is that propane and butane are both LPG (liquified petroleum gas), as is Autogas, so whatever means of storage you opt for, the gas will be just propane or butane, or a mix. If you expect to use campsites with EHU, and use the site facilities (showers, washing-up, etc), I would say it will take you an inordinately long time to recover the cost of a refillable system, bearing in mind that your consumption will be minimal and the main saving is in the cost of Autogas vs that of exchange cylinders. Our gas locker also takes two @ 13kg. We use sites and their facilities, and do not have an oven, so one 13kg propane cylinder lasts us about 12 weeks, used spring and autumn. We use the heating as and when we feel the need, but we spend most of our time in the warmer parts of Europe, tending to scoot south fairly quickly in spring and back equally quickly in autumn. I do not mean 400 mile dashes, just 150 - 200 miles per day, but without too much hanging around en-route - unless of course the weather is agreeable. We have one UK cylinder, and one French (generally a bit cheaper) and, as almost any trip will start or end with France, and because the cylinders are so widely available, it is easily possible to change as necassary in whichever country. Used in this way, the benefit of refillables does not, IMO, justify the cost. If the business of humping the cylinders were to become too onerous, that would alter the equation, but that is really a quite different proposition. As implied in some of the posts above, if you were to elect to spend your time on aires etc, with no EHU, and entirely dependent on your van's resources, then the economics alter and refillables might prove more economical within a reasonable timescale. I would say start with exchange cylinders until you establish a pattern of use and can assess your rate of consumption - then do the sums. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 This is something I wrote in 2005. It could do with updating, but I think the principles are still valid. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gas-in-Europe/2819/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I choose to use Butane (calor 7Kg x 2 ) because I have been led to believe butane is less toxic than propane. I also have heard it produces less soot but do not now if this is true or not. Operating at lower pressure (tank pressure) and not having high pressure in pipes to a regulator also appeals. Whilst having 2 bottles meets my needs for 6 weeks travelling in Europe ( just) I see no reason to change to propane. If I did for winter use it would be for winter use only but in 10 years I have never really had an issue with sub zero properties of butane bottles. I have always found connecting a full bottle gets me going in the mornings if a used one fails to. So I see no real reason to change mainly using the excuse butane is safer and less toxic. Interesting I just read today on a website butane cannot produce carbon monoxide when burning. I find this hard to believe and not found anything to substatiate it but I do wonder if it is actually true or maybe it produces a great deas less than other LPGs and partially why it is favoured for indoor portable heaters. Anyone shed scientific light on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 We use Butane cylinders in our Autosleeper Duetto, one 7kg and one 4.5kg making a total of 11.5kg. If we used Propane it would have to be one 6kg plus one 3.9kg, making a total of 9.9kg. The extra 1.6kg of gas provides a good margin of safety for us on our 8 weeks trips. We use a mixture of Aires (usually Mon to Fri) and sites for the weekend, rarely with EHU. We have never come close to running out and never had any low temperature problems with the Butane. Our use is spring, summer and autumn, so no real winter experience, but we have been to the North Cape four times and had snowy Easters at home. With a low gas carrying capacity van, such as the Duetto, the extra gas represented by Butane makes it very attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 Once again, many thanks for all the advice. Some conflicting views, so for now I think we'll stick to Propane and see how it goes. Some of the fun is in learning as you go anyway! We've collected our MH now, unfortunately a family bereavement has put our immediate plans to go abroad on hold for now, but we'll manage a few days here and there in Scotland over the next couple of months to become familiar with it. Thanks again, maybe one day we'll be able to give advice, not just ask you lot for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 spospe - 2013-08-30 7:09 PM We use Butane cylinders in our Autosleeper Duetto, one 7kg and one 4.5kg making a total of 11.5kg. If we used Propane it would have to be one 6kg plus one 3.9kg, making a total of 9.9kg. The extra 1.6kg of gas provides a good margin of safety for us on our 8 weeks trips. We use a mixture of Aires (usually Mon to Fri) and sites for the weekend, rarely with EHU. We have never come close to running out and never had any low temperature problems with the Butane. Interesting theory Michael. My understanding always was that although there is less weight of gas in a bottle of propane the stored energy in the same size bottle of either gas is more or less the same because propane gives of slightly more heat when burning than butane which means that boiling a settle on propane takes a little less time than with butane? If that is the case your two bottles should last about the same time regardless of gas type? Or I could be wrong again? However it only takes one cold morning with no warmth, no hot water to wash ans shave with, and no cup of tea to convince most people to switch to propane! In t'old days before we switched gas we used to boil a kettle last thing at night and fill a flask if it looked being a cold night - that way the hot water into a hot water bottle alongside the reluctant butane bottle in the morning usually got enough gas flowing to boil a kettle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 The caloric value per volume of butane is higher than propane. You actually get a lot more energy from butane and it will last longer than a bottle of propane as they are both filled to approx the same level of volume. It just so happens it works out at approx 6kg for propane and 7 kgs for butane for approx the same volume. Propane has a lower specific weight. I for example use pretty consistently in the summer 2 x 7 Kgs Butane over 6 weeks. If I was to use Propane in the summer I would not have enough gas for the whole trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Tracker - 2013-08-30 10:13 PM In t'old days before we switched gas we used to boil a kettle last thing at night and fill a flask if it looked being a cold night - that way the hot water into a hot water bottle alongside the reluctant butane bottle in the morning usually got enough gas flowing to boil a kettle! Been there, worn the T-shirt as well. Sorry to disagree with you in my last post re calorific value -- note I have edited it in case you are reading in in email notifications.. Changed weight to volume. You are indeed correct the calorific value for a given weight is higher for propane, but for volume it is less for propane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Butane versus propane gets discussed fairly regularly on motorhome forums. This is a 2012 related thread: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Propane-versus-Butane-for-MH-heating-/26378/ Employing a user-refillable LPG system means that the butane versus propane question becomes largely academic, as whatever the normal autogas mix is in the country where the system is refilled that's what's going to go in the LPG tank/bottle. The proportions of the two gases in the autogas of various European countries are mentioned here: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Propane-Butane-mixture-at-low-temperatures/29229/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Tracker - 2013-08-30 10:13 PM spospe - 2013-08-30 7:09 PM We use Butane cylinders in our Autosleeper Duetto, one 7kg and one 4.5kg making a total of 11.5kg. If we used Propane it would have to be one 6kg plus one 3.9kg, making a total of 9.9kg. The extra 1.6kg of gas provides a good margin of safety for us on our 8 weeks trips. We use a mixture of Aires (usually Mon to Fri) and sites for the weekend, rarely with EHU. We have never come close to running out and never had any low temperature problems with the Butane. Interesting theory Michael. However it only takes one cold morning with no warmth, no hot water to wash ans shave with, and no cup of tea to convince most people to switch to propane! a) I wash the night before (I don't tend to get dirty in bed) b) I don't need to shave as I have a beard c) I don't drink tea ;-) One factor which I did not mention in my earlier post and which is relevant, is that our van has a diesel heater and the hot air outlet from it plays on the panel which covers the gas locker. The effect of the heater blowing hot air onto the gas locker has at times saved the day and heated the butane enough for it to be useable. Given that we are now using gas regulators which work to a common pressure of 30mb for both Butane and Propane, I feel that consumption of both should be roughly the same for any given heat requirement (or is this 'simple' logic wrong?) Assuming that I am right, then carrying Butane will mean that I am carrying more effective gas capacity than using Propane cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 spospe - 2013-08-31 8:31 PM Given that we are now using gas regulators which work to a common pressure of 30mb for both Butane and Propane, I feel that consumption of both should be roughly the same for any given heat requirement (or is this 'simple' logic wrong?) Assuming that I am right, then carrying Butane will mean that I am carrying more effective gas capacity than using Propane cylinders. Dunno!! But if one gas burns more hotly than another that would suggest to me that it would take less time to boil a kettle or cool a fridge which I would have thought means using less given that both are running at the same pressure and so presumably passing the same volume of gas per minute? It's interesting but academic because no way am I going back to propane even though we no longer tour in mid winter. Isn't it great when things just - work!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Propane burns with a hotter flame, but will be a smaller flame. It actualy is a bit more complicated that just saying a hotter flame will heat quicker. The size of teh flame affects how much heat in total is produced. Also you have to lok at the vapours produced and teh enegy on then whih is released to what is being heated. Water vapour is produce as a resuly of teh combustion. Natural gas for example produces a lot of water vapour cpmpared to Butane and Propane and this is wasted in most heatinh applications where it is not condesed to extract the heat. For exampe when yoru kettle is cold teh water vapour will aid heating but s teh kett;e gets warn it ecapes as water vapour and so does not aid teh heating process. I would need to look up the differences between Propane and Butane but would imagine they are fairly close. What we do know is to get the same heat from propane we have to use at a higher pressure 37mbar and Butane at a lower pressure of 28mbar. This results in both producing the same heat and so it has to be assumed the Butane being at a lower temperature, which may surprise you is only something like 20 degrees F lower at around 3615 for propane and 3595 F for Butane. The additional temperture is only going to make a tiny difference. The flame lift as it is called being only marginally smaller. But what really mucks up any calculation based on butane and propane characteristics is what we use is all blends of gases. ‘Propane’ containing butanes and propylene, ‘Butane’ containing Propanes and different types of butane be it N-butane or iso-butane. The only figures we can accurately go by are those published by say Calor stating what the calorific value is and the specific weight. This cuts short a lot of calculations and we can assume as both propane and butane bottles are filled to approx the same height and the weights are 6Kg and 7 Kg that Butane is heavier. All we need now are the caloric value per weight as this is directly related to the heat produced and can be extracted without complex methods such as condensing of the exhaust gases or by catalytic reactions. So what are the results. With Butane we get an extra kg of LPG which equates to 1/6 extra or 16.7% more butane by weight. The caloric values from Calor are propane 95.8 and butane 126 but this is for the unpressurised gas phase and is MJ/m3 and not per weight so is of no use to us when comparing weights of liquids. So lets convert the liquids to gas which gives per litre liquid a volume of propane of 274 and butane of 233 cubic metres. (taken from the calor specs) So the difference is now easy to calculate. Butane has 15% less total expanded volume. Now if we look at the calorific values again Butane is 31.5% higher than Propane resulting in the Butane contents of a cylinder having 16.5% more energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Tracker. If I drive faster I use more fuel per mile, but I get there quicker so overall I should use less fuel, but I do not use less but actually use a lot more! >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Sorry chaps, but angels and pinheads come to mind! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Brambles - 2013-09-01 12:07 AM Tracker. If I drive faster I use more fuel per mile, but I get there quicker so overall I should use less fuel, but I do not use less but actually use a lot more! >:-) Yes - but the kettle does not have to overcome the tyre's rolling resistance and the fabulous aerodynamics of driving a blunt object into a gale! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Can I be the angel...please please please please? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.