sshortcircuit Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Well thanks for the feed back as we are now establishing the facts rather than jumping to assumptions that it is a faulty unit. Your testing will establish the state of the battery and then take it from there although if it works on another battery then looks like it will be the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 susie1997 - 2013-08-30 12:53 PM ...so we have changed our ways and now have the inverter plugged in to the 12v cigarette lighter in the habitation part of the van as we cannot access the leisure batteries under the passenger cab seat... A 300W inverter (overlooking power losses, etc) can convert an input of 25 Amps at 12V into an output of 1.25 Amps at 240V. If you are only going to use it to power low amperage devices, running the inverter via a 12V 'cigarette-type' socket should be OK. However, if you chose to fully exploit the inverter's design capability to process 25 Amps, (as 1foot warns) you'd need to be certain that the socket is capable of handling that amperage safely. Cigarette-type sockets are often fused at , say, 10 Amps and cabled to match, and - even with a relatively low amperage load - the socket and plug can get pretty hot if the load is continuous for a long period. Do you actually mean "a battery to battery charger"? These devices aren't cheap (Sterling B2B chargers cost from £300-£400) and are intended to 'fast recharge' batteries in vehicles where the current consumption is high. I can understand that your motorhome (It's always helpful if details of the make/model/year of the motorhome are provided in an inquiry) has a starter-battery, a separate battery for the beds (How does this get charged?) and started out with a single leisure-battery. You say that a 2nd leisure-battery has been added (installed beneath the passenger cab-seat) and it would be normal practice to parallel-connect this to the original leisure-battery to increase the overall leisure-battery capacity. I also understand that you had a solar-panel added and it would be commonsense for this to be wired so that it charges the leisure-batteries. What I don't understand is your statement that the (leisure batteries) are "...connected together as a battery to battery charger connected to a solar panel". Perhaps you just mean that the motorhome dealer failed to connect the 2nd leisure-battery to the original one, or did not carry out the connection correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susie1997 Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 The motorhome is a Autosleeper Hampshire on a transit 07. We don't intend to use it on high wattage items, have to forgo my hairdryer unfortunately, hubby doesn't need one, lucky I have short hair! A B2B charger was asked for and it's quoted on the invoice so I assume there is one there. I wouldn't know what to look for to find it anyway. The person who installed it told me he took 2 hrs to put the seat back after installing the battery under the passenger seat and we cannot access it to see it. He said battery under beds can only be charged by driving or letting the engine idle so can only be charged by the alternator, not even on hook up, I mean what's the point of that !! He said electric beds are not meant to be used a lot , except for sleeping of course and that's the way Autosleeper designed it. Think it's a lot of flannel myself but what do you do? He suggested a 12 car charger and clip to the battery but that would take it from the leisure battery under the cab seat ? He said if we were to leave it connected permanently we would need to earth to chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I would not use the Cigar lighter socket on the dash, this will be fed from the starter battery. I have another socket near the telly and a third in the shower room, both fed from the leisure batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 A few points to may help understamd what is going on, or indeed muddy the waters. Some Control systems such as some Electroblok models have provision for wiring a 2nd leisure battery to the control box itself. So each battery is some what independant. Quite how you wire a high power inverter into these systems I am not sure, so presumably you change to put both batteries in parallel and feed into the control panel as battery number 1, wiimng the inverter to teh pair of batteries via a heavy duty switch and appropriate fuse for the wiring used or expected load on the inverter. I would not power the inverter from the 12 volt socket, even at 60 watts these sockets and plugs can get quite warm or indeed hot. Quality plugs and sockets will use plated Berylium copper contacts and do not run so warm but you also will have a problem with voltage drop in the wiring to the socket. Also, what was the smell you had? Was it very faint and just a normal new electronic equipment type scent, or was it a strong smell suggesting something was burning or overheating. What is to stop this happening again when the battery has low voltage so unless very faint I would suggest the inverter does indeed need checking out for faults especially with a low battery. There should have been no smell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Can you check that your batteries vent to the open air as this could be the smell. There should be a small plastic pipe from the end of each battery which should vent externally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susie1997 Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 Retread24800 - 2013-08-30 2:53 PMI would not use the Cigar lighter socket on the dash, this will be fed from the starter battery. I have another socket near the telly and a third in the shower room, both fed from the leisure batteries. Not using the dash 12v socket, only the hab one. We have 2 x12v sockets in the habitation, both both fed from leisure batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Sorry to say this, but I would take your van to a qualified auto-electrician, it sounds like the bloke who installed all this stuff should be selling fish and chips instead, do NOT underestimate the power contained within lead acid batteries, and the fact that one of them you are unable to get at sounds at best very amateurish, and at worst potentially downright dangerous. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susie1997 Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 We have deduced that the original battery used is now flat, only to be used for the electric beds, which are a novelty now but even after just 2 weeks ownership the novelty is wearing off so won't be playing with them much :-D Your first statement I'm afraid went over my head, I didn't understand it. :$ The smell was a burning electrical smell, the green light was on but not the red warning light, there it's a safety cutout but it didn't cut out. I take your warning onboard about the 10a load on the 12v socket and will have to act accordingly. We will have to have a professional sorry it out for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-08-30 3:37 PM Sorry to say this, but I would take your van to a qualified auto-electrician, it sounds like the bloke who installed all this stuff should be selling fish and chips instead, do NOT underestimate the power contained within lead acid batteries, and the fact that one of them you are unable to get at sounds at best very amateurish, and at worst potentially downright dangerous. ;-) I meant to add the smell of burning could well be a severe overload or short circuit that has not blown a fuse, or is not even fused, and could have serious implications if it is some of the wiring that's been affected, my advice stands, get someone to look it over who knows what they are doing. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susie1997 Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 Thanks all. It was a professional auto electrician that installed it all, it was Marquis technicians after we bought the van from them 2 weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 susie1997 - 2013-08-30 3:28 PMRetread24800 - 2013-08-30 2:53 PMI would not use the Cigar lighter socket on the dash, this will be fed from the starter battery. I have another socket near the telly and a third in the shower room, both fed from the leisure batteries. Not using the dash 12v socket, only the hab one. We have 2 x12v sockets in the habitation, both both fed from leisure batteries.It's academic where a 12V socket is or which battery powers it - the important thing is the load a socket is designed to handle safely, the wiring to the socket and the fuse that protects it.Your inverter can draw 25A though, if you use it just to power low-wattage 240V equipment, it will draw significantly less. My Hobby motorhome has two dashboard 12V 'cigarette-lighter' sockets - one is fused at 10A and the other at 20A. I've got a cheap inverter and I power it from the 20A socket as I know there's no chance of overloading that socket. My Hobby also has two 12V sockets in its habitation area. I don't know what amperage those sockets are designed/fused to handle, nor do I care as I never use them. However, if I did use them, I'd want to know what capability they have. So I would suggest that you confirm the maximum amperage your Hampshire's habitation-area sockets are intended to handle (hopefully the information will be in the Auto-Sleepers handbook), rather than assume they'll be OK to run your inverter safely from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Quick question susie, what size is the battery under the bed. Make and model number or Ah rating if you have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I shall mention my chain of thoughts here. I could be totally wrong though. The battery under the bed is a small AGM battery of around 22 Ah or less just to power the beds. It is recharged from the engine with its own charging relay circuit. A B2B charger has been fitted to charge the Leisure batteries which are in parallel one under each front seat, from the engine battery. Personally I do not see much advantage in this as alternators are pretty good at charging batteries, but hey some others beg to differ on my views and i believe the B2B is more suitable for use in certain boat set ups.. A solar panel and controller is fitted to charge the leisure batteries. I do not see any problem with the set up but only the connecting of the inverter to the bed battery, and if I am correct is not a suitable sized battery and not surprising it was flattened. The next question is what make and model is the inverter? My inkling is there is a separate battery form the leisure batteries fitted under the bed for a simple reason.. What happens if you flatten the leisure batteries watching TV with the beds inclined, how do you lower again as you would have no power. Having its own small battery keeps it independent and you can lower the beds for sleeping. My next thought is you could charge this from the leisure batteries, not fully but a reasonable charge using a simple diode circuit in series with the battery, or a 12 volt to 12volt charger would be better but would have to cope with low volts on the leisure batteries and switch off...adding complications to choosing the right one which can be permanently fitted. A bit like your B2B but a lot cheaper and simpler. Or just use your inverter and a mains powered charger. But, do you have a problem if the bed battery is just left as it is? I think not and the engine charging for the bed battery is more than sufficient for the power used for the bed motors. So looking at all this again, I really do not think you have much of an issue except the inverter needs testing or checking it is 100% working correctly and does not have a fault. I think it does. You now need to re-think how you are going to connect it to the leisure batteries under the front seats which are now congested with extra batteries and so on. How about getting the Auto electrician to fit it permanently to the leisure batteries, with an isolation switch in full view, and mains type socket somewhere convenient in the habitation area. I am sure the technician can advise you. However the old question still arises, do you actually have a problem if the 12 volt sockets. Maybe not! If you are only using low power, Freesat box is what? 30 watts most. I dunno, it is not much and a couple of phones then it should be fine. Real test is to try it and check the connectors do not get hot and there is not too large a voltage drop in the cables supplying the sockets. I appreciate you may not fully follow my ramblings, but ask Brian as he is good at decipering my thoughts on paper. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Whilst I agree with your assumptions I make the following observations By OP "All works ok from the proper leisure battery!! " Yourself "the inverter needs testing or checking it is 100% working correctly and does not have a fault. I think it does " If its working on a good battery why do you think the inverter is faulty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-08-30 7:56 PMsusie1997 - 2013-08-30 3:28 PMRetread24800 - 2013-08-30 2:53 PMI would not use the Cigar lighter socket on the dash, this will be fed from the starter battery. I have another socket near the telly and a third in the shower room, both fed from the leisure batteries. Not using the dash 12v socket, only the hab one. We have 2 x12v sockets in the habitation, both both fed from leisure batteries.It's academic where a 12V socket is or which battery powers it - the important thing is the load a socket is designed to handle safely, the wiring to the socket and the fuse that protects it.Your inverter can draw 25A though, if you use it just to power low-wattage 240V equipment, it will draw significantly less. My Hobby motorhome has two dashboard 12V 'cigarette-lighter' sockets - one is fused at 10A and the other at 20A. I've got a cheap inverter and I power it from the 20A socket as I know there's no chance of overloading that socket. My Hobby also has two 12V sockets in its habitation area. I don't know what amperage those sockets are designed/fused to handle, nor do I care as I never use them. However, if I did use them, I'd want to know what capability they have. So I would suggest that you confirm the maximum amperage your Hampshire's habitation-area sockets are intended to handle (hopefully the information will be in the Auto-Sleepers handbook), rather than assume they'll be OK to run your inverter safely from. It would still be asinine to run an inverter directly from the vehicle battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 sshortcircuit, I think it is faulty for the reasons I stated earlier ( or I think I did) which is it smelt of burning which it should not have done. I have asked for details of the make and model so I can check the specifications to see if a red light should have come on with low voltage at the same time as it was wailing. Its possile the wailing was not a warning buzzer but the output stage transformer making a racket. My view is a red light should have come on with low voltage but my real concern is the burning smell and what is to stop low voltage making the same happen again. Hopefully you now see were I am coming from. There is of course another possibilty which has just struck me and that is the smell was coming from the controller for the bed electric system due to low voltage. It should not be affected but......one never knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susie1997 Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 The battery under the bed looks big, as big as a 110a battery. After waiting for an hour or do it will raise the bed a Little so where the charge it's coming from, who knows? We used inverter again on 12v socket just for freesat box and 2 phones and although reading for battery went down to 12a we hope to see it rise again today with hopefully strong sunshine, if not we will run the engine for a while to charge batteries. We have now been off hook up for 6 days and basically want to see how long we can survive without EHU. We want to winter in Portugal and will be using lots of Aires so we want to test the system out but will probably do more driving than we currently do here in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susie1997 Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 The make of the inverter is Mercury 300watt pure sine wave. Not the dearest inverter around, we would have liked the waeco but it was expensive and thought the mercury at £80 was at least not a, I think you call them, moderated sine wave inverter which could have caused problems with tv although on reflection that's only ever used with the 12v plug? I don't use the laptop much but hope to charge that from it also when conditions allow. My smartphone takes a lot of charging, sometimes twice a day, hubby's phone not so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 We are getting drip fed here. You have been off hook-up for 6 days now. I would doubt if you have any faults other than batteries gradually discharging. A lot of wild assumptions being made without establishing the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Drip fed indeed. 1st things 1st, you need to get some charge in the bed battery. As it is believed the engine charges the bed battery then start your engine and see if it charges it a bit by after 10 mins of idling try the bed.. What is important now to prevent damage to the battery or further deterioration is to get it charged by whatever means you can. Lead acid batteries to not like to be left discharged. I am surpised it is such a large battery JUST for the bed and someone has not done thier homework in planning this battery layout. What a waste when all it does is power the bed and this needs a bit more research as to why someone has selected such a large battery. p.s. thanks for info on inverter susie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 http://avslgroup.com/en/product/651.673UK Seems a fairly standard low cost imported inverter and nothing particularly unusual about it. Low voltage alarm is 10 volts and low battery shut down at 9.5 volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 My waeco 2000 watt inverter used to go into alarm on low battery's and the sound was a bit disconcerting!d utterly confusing thread! What van and what electric bed is being discussed please as moi is intrigued...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-08-31 10:26 AM My waeco 2000 watt inverter used to go into alarm on low battery's and the sound was a bit disconcerting!d utterly confusing thread! What van and what electric bed is being discussed please as moi is intrigued...... http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/review/motorhome/2007-marquis-hampshire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susie1997 Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Not sure about drip Fed, just stating the facts as they occur. The original problem occurred on the 2nd day off hook up. Thanks to all the other posters replying and getting the information they need to resolve the problem, which is now resolved. Other posters are adding their knowledge to the discussion, I can't see a problem with that? Thanks by the way to all who contributed to the discussion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.