DIY Gaslow System Warning

[Terrytraveller]

Having just fitted a twin cylinder gaslow system, a word of warning about fitting the gaslow propane regulator adaptors and stainless steel flexible pipes. Any gaslow fitting that mates with a domed connection, its advisable to lightly smear the domed end with high pressure LPG jointing compound before screwing home. I found that assembling dry, as you would normally do with a propane regulator onto a calor cylinder, did not produce a gas tight seal on three of the six interference (domed) connections you need to make for a twin cylinder system. Once the cylinders have been connected and filled at the Autogas pump, all connections can be scrutenized, if a leak is detected on any of the stainless steel flexible pipe connections, releasing any of the nuts will depressurise both filling pipes, the sealing compound can then be applied, and the connections remade. The downside is that you will need to cook at least several meals in the van at home to use three or four litres of gas before you can take the van down to the Autogas station to refill and repressurise the filling system pipework and test yet again. If you are fitting one of these systems I would strongly recommend that the filling kit is placed outside the habitation area, i.e. no pipe runs in lockers or under sofa beds, I understand this is common practise by some professional installers. I have installed the filler kit just inside the gas locker, it is mounted onto a sturdy bracket and studs, the removeable bracket is secured with four butterfly nuts, and the filler kit is easy to remove for servicing the rest of the system within the gas locker. Any holes drilled in the inside of the gas locker which protude into the habitation area have been sealed. So I have a full sealed propane Butagaz Le Cube gas bottle and regulator available for £20, if anyone is interested, it will fit in the space normally occupied by the calor 6kg cylinder, I live 5 mins from Brownhills Swindon tel 01793 721465. Regards Terry

[Basil]

I would concour with Terry regarding the joints, I have only fitted one 11kg Gaslow (still using 6kg Calor as back up until I have used up my stock). However the filling kit has two of the said connections and one leaked!! So it seems a 50% failure rate is the order of the day. I have installed mine with the filler passing through the habitation area. There was no alternative due to the siting of the gas locker and I did not want to open the locker to refill as I have heard of cases where people have been stopped from filling in that case, and I am not prepared to argue the rights and wrongs of that on a forcourt when I just need to top my gas up and go on my way. I have no real concern with my installation, I did consult with Gaslow before carrying it out. The cylinders have non return valves so the maximum possible problem would be during filling in the unlikely event of the filling tube fracturing. Any leak occuring after that would only involve the contents of the filling tube, which whilst it is liquid and therefore would make a larger quantity as gas in air, I am not overly concerned by this as in my opinion (and Gaslows) total failure rather than a minor joint leak is unlikely given that the tube construction, they are after all guaranteed for 25 years. Therefore any minor leak would be smelled in the same way as a leak at any other pipework or appliance within the habitation area and could therefore be corrected without any drama.

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Basil, I am pleased to find I'm not the only one with the sealing problem. Regarding the filler location inside the locker, and having to open the door to refill, I too was concerned about that and felt guilty, I tried to hide behind the pump and breathing in holding my breath to reduce my silhouette, as I opened the locker and stuffed the pistol into the bayonet. It usually takes 20 seconds to deliver 24 litres, in this case I guessed I only wanted 4 litres, and had been practising quick draws whilst watching High Noon on the TV, so I estimated by the time I had been spotted, I could have reholstered my pistol and been out of town on the 12 noon stage before being told off. However - like all my preplans, it all went horribly wrong. I put my pistol into the filler, pulled the trigger and pressed the green button and held it on - Nothing happened, the meter was reading zero's and no delivery. By the time I tried for the fifth time, the guy from the counter was out of the shop and by my side, I was ready for a telling off and eating humble pie, also thinking I'm going to have to mount the filler in the gas locker door. He didn't bat an eyelid, just kept holding the green button on until the pump reset and the delivery motor started to turn. It gave me 4.5 litres before the 80% cut off came in. So I feel just a bit more comfortable now about filling up - now where's that High Noon movie. Regards Terry

[Basil]

Hi Terry, yes I am sure that it was nothing you or I had done wrong regards the installation, but a not very positive type of connection (lots of people including myself have trouble sealing the Calor Propane cylinders to the governor). I don't know why I didn't just put a little compound on anyway knowing what the cylinders are like!! Know what you mean about the filling, the first time I was waiting for someone to stop me even though I was the only one there that knew it was for 'domestic' use not to power the van. Doesn't it seem ages holding the button before it resets and starts the delivery when you are on a guilt trip?

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]Terratravel - 2006-08-15 1:29 PM Hi Basil, However - like all my preplans, it all went horribly wrong. I put my pistol into the filler, pulled the trigger and pressed the green button and held it on - Nothing happened, the meter was reading zero's and no delivery. By the time I tried for the fifth time, the guy from the counter was out of the shop and by my side, I was ready for a telling off and eating humble pie, also thinking I'm going to have to mount the filler in the gas locker door. He didn't bat an eyelid, just kept holding the green button on until the pump reset and the delivery motor started to turn. It gave me 4.5 litres before the 80% cut off came in. So I feel just a bit more comfortable now about filling up - now where's that High Noon movie. Regards Terry[/QUOTE] Terry, We have had a refillable bottle for three years now and we still get problems filling up. :$ It's not "Finger Trouble" but the state of the guns, the bayonet fitting does not help either 8-) . Also some pumps have to be authorised from the cash desk after you have pressed the green button. The claw gun system in Europe seems to be a better fit than the bayonet but having said that there are three or four different types of guns and one of them is a real pig to use. 8-) Regards Don

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Don, Madge & Basil, Thanks for your input. What I did notice is the weight of that pistol and hose puts a heck of a download on the filler assembly, my bracket sprung slightly under the load. I would be concerned if the 70mm hole was in the side of a van made from GRP, that GRP is so thin. I know its a sandwich construction and fairly strong as bonded, but that outside filler frame is only about 12mm wide and will not give alot of support to a pistol and hose hanging from it. If I was to mount the filler in the bodywork, I think I would make a plate up attached with adhesive sealant and drilled out to 70mm to reinforce the bodywork. It would seem that the situation worsens when the claw adaptor is fitted on the filler as the pistol appears on the end of that, putting more leaverage on the filler cap and bodywork - is that fair comment? Regards Terry

[Basil]

Terry, I completely agree with your comments regarding the strain placed on the filling point by the 'gun'. I am not sure how to do anything about it, our van is of traditional alloy foam and wood sandwich construction and it does look as if the filler is trying to squash the lower edge of the mounting into the alloy, or rather that the alloy is being pressed into the polystyrene insulation. I have considered a solid liner, as you do when cutting a rectangular hole but the small circular shape makes this a little difficult, likewise I dont think that simply inserting a spacer would help, still pondering this one. Still with the greater gas capacity I think that supporting the 'gun' with one hand while pressing the button with the other will not be so hard a chore so few times a year, not quite as bad as filling with deisal every week or so!!

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Basil, I would rcommend a 6" square (or thereabouts) piece of plastic offcut from a plastic barge board or soffat, they are usually 0.25" to 0.75" thick. The piece can be bevelled or rounded to a pleasing shape. I used a screwfix 70mm cutter on a mandrel in a radial drill to cut the hole in my bracket, likewise would suit to cut a hole in the plastic load spreader plate. Using a good adhesive sealant (silka 22 or like) librally spread onto the plastic plate, assemble the filler onto the sidewall, and screw the Gaslow filler backplate to clamp the entire assembly onto the van wall, squeezing out some of the adhesive sealant. Leaving a couple of days for the adhesive sealant to set, then re-tighten the screws at the rear of the Gaslow filler assembly. You will have only the flexible pipe at the rear of the filler to remove and refit. Regards Terry

[Basil]

Hi Terry, I read what you say, but if I understand you I don't think at this stage I would want to 'disfigure' the exterior of the van. That might be a solution if things got so bad that it looked nasty anyway so the plate would be an improvement, thanks for the suggestion though.

[spartan3956]

I fitted the gaslow system and have no leaks on the filler or delivery side so i must be lucky for once. I fitted a 1/8 (10 swg) aluminium bracket inside the locker to fix the filler too and ive never been aproached by anyone when filling. Anyway your fittings are in a purpose built gas locker and no in the interior of the vehicle so there isnt a problem.the bracket is sturdy enough when in use. I also drilled the cap and attached a wash basin chain to it so that i dont forget it when filling. I would never drill the outside panels of the vehicle, i would be worried about stress fractures occurring in the gel coat around the nozzle. Plus you cant really remove the system to the next van without leaving a big hole. Pete

[Basil]

Leaving a hole isn't a problem as it is the same size as a standard locker vent which could replace the filler, in any case it would only mean the purchase of another filling point for the cylinders, not very costly and the new owner would only have to buy the new cylinder, good sales point! Regarding stress fractures etc.. I have installed many componants, BBQ points external showers, water heater outlet flues, roll out awnings, mains inlet and outlets, locker doors, cameras and reversing sensors to name a few, over the years to several different construction vans and have never had any problems with either stress in GRP or disfiigurement of alloy, so I certainly have no qualms at fitting componants through the vehicle. There is normally some way to improve the strength of the wall at the point where the hole is made, however at the moment this particular filler is the exception for an easy way to improve the strength around it without substantially altering the cosmetic appearance of the van, but I am thinking about it, still it will be plenty of time before I need a refill so I have time!

[Basil]

It has been suggested on another forum that the cause of the leaks from these joints may be down to the DIY installation. To clear that up and reitterate what has been said by Terry and myself, whilst my installation was done by myself I can assure you that it was not due to any defect in the manner that it was done and was soley down to the type of coupling used not sealing correctly (anyone who has used a standard Calor Propane cylinder with a governor knows that that type of joint can be difficult to secure) . Also just because an installation was DIY, it does not mean that it was not done by a qualified engineer!! Terry may like to make a comment here as well.

[spartan3956]

WELL SAID. I agree as i am a qualified engineer and do a better job than most fitters who are employed in the trade, I have no clock to beat and the labour charge is all mine. The installation went without problems and continues to give good service and will do for years , if it doesnt ill fix it . Pete

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Peter & Basil, I expect between us we have over a hundred years of experience, like many retirees (sorry chaps if you don't fit that category yet!), and in any case we can apply a lifetime of engineering skills to all jobs. I think the people who made the comments you refer to are not practical sort of folks, so we can understand their concerns. What frightens me is these poor people are at the mercy of installers, who although well intentioned may also have little experience of engineering matters and consequences with regard to motorhomes, their construction materials, loadings and use, perhaps my hints below, although common sense to us - will be helpful and perhaps life saving to some. I think the advice I would give now to anyone having a similar system installed, is to tell the installer he must ;- 1. use high pressure lpg jointing compound on all joints except those connections which are sealed by a rubber washer. 2. Filler assembly and filler pipe runs must be underneath the motorhome, not in the cabin. 3. Filler pipe must be at least 3" away from exhaust system. 4. Filler assembly must be able to support the weight of the autogas pistol and hose (and that is some load - believe me). 5. The fitter must partially fill the system to test each joint. 6. The fitter must bleed out the air from the newly installed cylinders. 7. The fitter must fill the system to cut off point. 8. The fitter must check that only gas not liquid gas is expelled from the cylinders before connecting the regulators. 9. The system must be secure in the gas locker. 10. There should be a pressure check of the entire system before allowing the customer to escape. As the average fitting cost is only £70, I really don't believe they can be carrying out all the safety checks I have listed. Please feel free to copy, paste and add any other checks I have missed and repost. Regards Terry

[Basil]

Terry, That's ok, I am a retiree, though have been fortunate enough to be an early one! :-D Your total of years experience I am sure is not far out. I would agree with your list of cautions. Even though I have taken the concious decision to route through the habitation area I have taken this decision with years of experience (I still considered long and hard) and the knowledge that I am capable of dealing with any consequences that could occur, not that I expect any or I would not have done it!! My main concern of the posts on the other forum was that I have no ability to reply, I'm not a paid up member. I felt that anyone reading the post that was carrying out an installation could have thought that the problem was our workmanship on the DIY installation, rather than the difficulty with the connections and they might not have taken heed of what we have said.

[Geoff Bell]

While we are talking about gaslow systems, I have fitted 2x11kg bottles inside a locker in my garage. They are interconnected and have a guage which shows the level of gas. The filler is outside on the bodywork and all seems to be well. However I was a little concerned when I filled them up for the first time because when I got home there was a strong smell of gas in the garage, and the pipes were all frosted over. I checked again approx an hour later and the smell was still lingering,even with both doors open. As it was too late to ring the installers I waited till morning, leaving the doors open all night and checked again . All seemed to be well and had no smell or trouble since. My question is, 1. Is this normal or just a characteristic of the first fill? I would definately be concerned if I was travelling and had that pungent smell lingering for so long.

[Basil]

Geoff, Now that is possible that you could have a leak on your filling pipes, it was the smell that persisted that made me trace out my leak, and trust me there was a lot of smell for such a small leak that I found. Bear in mind that the cylinders have non return valves, so the gas in liquid form within the filling pipe after fillingwould normally remain there as a liquid and if you had a leak it would not replenish from the cylinders. If you have an escape then it would issue into the air as gas until the pressure within the hose was such that the leak was no longer apparent at which point there would be no smell. The LPG turning from a liquid to a gas can cause frost to appear, though it is perfectly feasable that the liquid temperature at the time of filling could cause frosting on the pipes due to the temperature of the air around them falling and moisture in the air condensing out onto the tubes, depending on climatic conditions. There should be no smell though, other than from the small amount of gas released when you remove the gun. Next time you fill, if it were me, I would check those filling pipe connections just in case.

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Basil & Geoff, Geoff if you are concerned with running the filler pipework within the cabin, you could encase the lot in purpose made aluminum conduit with gasdrops. I did consider this route before putting a bracket in the gas locker. I asked a professionl local installer for advice, he approved of running the pipework and filler inside without mentioning encasing in conduit or gas drops. I asked him how many he had installed before - one he said - pass the salt!!! Basil - your pipes freezing over is caused by liquid gas escaping from the filler pipes, the reduced smell of gas is because most or all the gas has been evacuated from the filler pipes. I suggest that you undo the nuts on the main filler pipes(four nuts) and remake them using lpg high pressure jointing compound, not boss white). My gas locker when opened now, has no smell of gas, the only smell is from the new paintwork on the gaslow cylinders. A couple more items for my list above. 11. Renew all rubber pipes which are dated, mine don't need replacing until 2012 now. 13 The Gaslow stainless steel pipes are only half plastic sleeved, if the pipe is in contact metal to metal anywhere, fit addtional plastc sleeving in any area which might rub. Regards Terry

[Terrytraveller]

Basil you beat me to that one with a good detailed explanation, I was composing while you posted!! Geoff - when I did my first fill the pipe was cold but not frozen, it only froze when I undid the connection and then only around the nut.I suspect you have a massive leak in the filler pipes. Did you go back to the installers directly after the first fill for checking? There should be no smell of gas at all on the first or other fills, turning the gas on and hearing the regulator 'hiss' will not give out a gas smell into the locker or your garage. If you can smell gas ever - you most certainly have a gas leak, its not residual - its definately a leak! Regards Terry Oops

[Basil]

Hey Terry Its not my pipes that are frosting its Geoffs. You will not neccessarily get frosting from a leak point it will depend on the rate of the gas issuing from the leak, in my case when I had the leak at installation time it was so small that there was no frosting at all and in fact I traced it with Leak detector solution (special mix of soapy water) and was able to see tiny bubbles. If as you suggest leaks would frost then the Leak Detector Solution would also have frozen and not bubbled. It was the smell of the gas that pointed to a leak, there is no smell at all when I fill now apart from the bit that is let go on disconnection. It is also quite feasible to get frosting on the pipework, depending on the climatic conditions, at the time of filling due to the pressure and temperature of the gas liquid being forced into the cylinders. It does not neccessarily mean that there is a leak, though if there is a large leak it will show as frost in the area of the leak, like when you disconnect the filling pipwork after the first fill. When I worked at Canvey Island gas methane terminal it was a common and normal sight to see pipework covered in frost, even in the height of summer, particularly when fresh deliveries were taking place. Regards Bas. Terry I think we may have cross posted here!!!

[Geoff Bell]

Terry, hows did the solo flight go? No I didn't go back to the installers Br*******s because I couldn't smell anything the following morning, and its been alright since. Having said that, if the pipes are leaking on the fill, and there are one way valves, then I won't experience the problem again until I refill and that could be sometime. I think I'll have them checked just in case.

[zulurita]

As someone considering having the gaslow system installed, by a professional fitter though as I wouldn't be qualified to do so, thanks for all the info. I have copied and pasted you points so thanks for that Terry.

[Basil]

You are absolutely correct Geoff, regarding that if you should have a leak on the filling point to the cylinders you will only have a problem at the time of filling and after until the residual gas in that pipe is gone. Hence Terry's warning in the first place to DIYers that you should check them on first fill and if you should have to remake a joint bear in mind you can't recheck until the next time you fill! Geoff out of interest do I understand you correctly that you had them installed but they were left unfilled for you to fill at your first opertunity? Baz

[Geoff Bell]

Yep you understood, Your thinking what I'm thinking arn't you.

[Basil]

Hmm maybe, would it be How did they test their work with unfilled cylinders?? maybe!!!