DVLA Sorn fines are ilegal

[Guest peter]

Found this on my motorbike forum. Very interesting.

I think the legal points are valid in many other instances.

 

I am only relaying this info on.

 

 

 

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/25/dvla_dodgi...

 

 

sickpup said:

I warn you this is hard going.

 

It's the next day and I must admit to being a bit low over it all. Although I won and DVLA will now be forced to follow the law a bit more I had evidence that they had been breaking the law for 5 years with these fines but wasn't able to use it as I beat them at the absolute first legal point.

 

The first point of my Defence was that DVLA cannot prove that I hadn't sent them a SORN declaration. As anyone who follows my legal lessons on here :wink: knows one of my favourite Acts is Section 7 Interpretations act 1978 (IA78) which reads as follows...

 

 

. said:

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression" give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

So DVLA had to prove I had had no intention of sending the SORN declaration and that they hadn't received it, not an easy thing to do.

 

Over the last few months I've also been firing off Freedom of Information requests on little looked at but pertinent subjects. One of these concerned DVLA losing mail internally and can be seen in this link DVLA and internally lost mail.

Now it's not the easiest webpage to read but basically it comes down to DVLA are losing mail internally although they don't know how much as they only record it if you make a written complaint to the Chief Executive. If you complain on the phone they ignore the complaint and don't record it, an imaginative way of keeping the lost numbers down. In fact if you send them a SORN declaration by recorded delivery and they lose it you can phone them up, give them the tracking No and they will check the POD (proof of delivery) online, agree they received it then not record it as lost.

 

The woman representing the DVLA wasn't actually legally trained so when the Judge asked her about the act she replied with 'I don't know it' to which the judge pointed out that as it was part of my defence AND DVLA had a copy in their claims bundle maybe she should be at least conversant with it! as the woman stammered away again saying she wasn't legally trained the Judge offered her a half hour break to phone her superiors and seek clarification which she jumped at so a half hour break was called in the proceedings.

 

After the break we went back into the Courtroom to resume and the DVLA woman had a page of notes and triumphantly declared that the words used in one of the Schedules of the SORN act was 'Delivered' as in 'Delivered to the Secretary of state' and as delivered wasn't a word within IA78 that it couldn't apply. I pointed out to the Judge that yes 'Delivered' didn't appear in the act but the phrase 'whether the expression "serve" or the expression" give " or " send " or any other expression is used' did and I believed in encompassed any other word used, the Judge agreed with me.

The Judge checked the Encarta Encyclopaedia for the definition of the word 'Delivered' and concluded that under the definition I would have had to personally Deliver the SORN notification to Swansea. The Judge decided that this was a nonsense and that to require everyone in the UK to hand deliver all SORN notifications to Swansea would be ridiculous so ruled in my favour in this instance.

The Judge gave the woman from the DVLA several more chances to refute service of the notice but in my view she was well out of her depth, she just couldn't grasp the idea that she had to prove DVLA hadn't received the notification and eventually caved in at which point the Judge poured scorn upon DVLA's prosecution statement and it's attempts to curry favour with the court and pointed out that as this case was covered by civil procedure rules he had no discretion and he had to follow the law to the letter and as such after a finding of fact that I had sent the SORN notification that the case would be found in my favour. He suggested to the DVLA that they could of course appeal the decision but in a voice that rather suggested it would be a very bad idea.

 

This has been going on for 2 years now and in that time I've had a lot of help and support from forum members giving advice and proof reading legal arguments to make sure they make sense. I woud like to thank the following members for putting up with me in that time and giving advice. Lozzypop1, Kickstart, BlueX5, Tarmacsurfer, Robby, Queen of String. There are many others who have supported me who don't get mentioned Including WildGoose who supplied me with Paperwork that sadly I didn't get to use in Court but may just force DVLA to repay people some of their money. This case was only won because of the help people on BCF gave me.

 

Although I won in court I didn't get to hurt DVLA but I have opened a huge legal hole in their collection of SORN penalties so I have mixed feelings over the day. I won on a very simple point but if the case had gone further I could have done some real damage to them. In fact I sort of hope they do appeal as then the full case will be heard.

What that means/what I make of it, is that every SORN fine the DVLA have ever issued has been illegal, and not within the letter of the law, unless you have hand delivered your return to Swansea.

 

Yet there seems to be no coverage on this story weird that, if I have understood this correctly then we as motorists have been illegally fined for the DVLA's usual incompetence.

 

Google Section 7 Interpretations act 1978 for loads of info' and cases.

[Bulletguy]

peter - 2013-09-26 8:56 PM

 

Found this on my motorbike forum. Very interesting.

I think the legal points are valid in many other instances.

 

I am only relaying this info on.

 

 

 

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/25/dvla_dodgi...

 

 

sickpup said:

I warn you this is hard going.

 

It's the next day and I must admit to being a bit low over it all. Although I won and DVLA will now be forced to follow the law a bit more I had evidence that they had been breaking the law for 5 years with these fines but wasn't able to use it as I beat them at the absolute first legal point.

 

The first point of my Defence was that DVLA cannot prove that I hadn't sent them a SORN declaration. As anyone who follows my legal lessons on here :wink: knows one of my favourite Acts is Section 7 Interpretations act 1978 (IA78) which reads as follows...

 

 

. said:

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression" give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

 

So DVLA had to prove I had had no intention of sending the SORN declaration and that they hadn't received it, not an easy thing to do.

 

 

Interesting post Peter as I only discovered last year about these SORN fines. However, the agrrieved complainant claims that proving the DVLA hadn't received his SORN declaration is "not an easy thing to do."

 

Obviously he hasn't heard of Signed For delivery. A little extra on the standard postal rate giving not only proof of posting....but proof of receipt too.

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Waaay Off Topic I know...

But having had the likes of HMRC and the then CSA, "lose" umpteen letters and personal documents(..all of which they had received because they had at one point or other,responded to them!..only to later deny ever receiving them!?),I know how frustrating it can be to deal with these sorts of organisations... 8o|

And although the DVLA have never lost any of my mail(yet),when we were trying to clarify something with our current van,I found them shambolic at best.It seemed as if you were just taking pot luck on who picked up the phone/opened the mail, as to what answer we'd get!(...each time we'd contact them,we were told something different!).

 

However...(and I haven't fully read the above or the link,so apologies if it's explained within it).. if this chap is able to post about his experience on the internet,then I wonder why on earth he didn't save himself a heap of hassle and just register his SORN online..? ;-)

 

 

[donna miller]

pepe63 - 2013-09-27 10:00 AM

 

 

 

However...(and I haven't fully read the above or the link,so apologies if it's explained within it).. if this chap is able to post about his experience on the internet,then I wonder why on earth he didn't save himself a heap of hassle and just register his SORN online..? ;-)

 

 

Pepe, the case had been going on for 2 years or more so maybe the guy didn't have a pc then. Also there are instances when you can't SORN on line, one being with the green slip you get when you first buy a vehicle and it's not yet registered in your name. It could have been that the previous keeper sent off the V5 and the OP had to send off a SORN form with the green slip.

There are a lot of people, my OH included who have bikes in bits in their garages, even a frame on its own needs to be sorned and you can't do it then online either.The guy who ran our local bike shop had a daughter who worked in the DVLA at Swansea and she told him how unorganised they were and lost literally hundreds of letters, applications and documents a week.

Recorded delivery? If I remember right (from visits there myself) they only sign for the days consignment of recorded post and not each individual one or they would be there for hours, it's only if there's a problem will they admit to losing a recorded delivery letter and not pursue a fine.

 

[colin]

pepe63 - 2013-09-27 10:00 AM

 

However...(and I haven't fully read the above or the link,so apologies if it's explained within it).. if this chap is able to post about his experience on the internet,then I wonder why on earth he didn't save himself a heap of hassle and just register his SORN online..? ;-)

 

 

I can answer that from personal experiance, by the time you've found out the SORN isn't going to arrive then the online registering refuses to accept a SORN.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Oh!...so I take it that it's not possible to register a SORN at the PO then?..and that it has to by post(to Swansea) or online then..?

I've only ever used the online method to sorn my bike(s)....

(..even the one that had been in bits for ages... :$ )

 

 

[colin]

pepe63 - 2013-09-29 11:10 AM

 

Oh!...so I take it that it's not possible to register a SORN at the PO then?..and that it has to by post(to Swansea) or online then..?

I've only ever used the online method to sorn my bike(s)....

(..even the one that had been in bits for ages... :$ )

 

 

If you've already posted the SORN to DVLA and it's got lost, by the time you've realised this you cannot register it anywhere as it flags up as undeclared SORN and you are due a fine.

[Rayjsj]

I am away in the van during this pleasant September, HOWEVER my vans Road Tax runs out tomorrow, 30th September, I have tried to renew it online, but as I have been away since the kids went back to school, I don't have a renewal notice/code whatever it is, and I don't carry my log book either. HOW do I renew while away (in the UK) ?? Do you still get 14 days 'Grace' before they fine you ? I want to pay the amount but don't know how to do it (without having having to rush home tomorrow). Any Ideas ??

Ray

[pepe63xnotuse]

colin - 2013-09-29 11:18 AM

 

If you've already posted the SORN to DVLA and it's got lost, by the time you've realised this you cannot register it anywhere as it flags up as undeclared SORN and you are due a fine.

 

I realise that Colin..but I suppose that's not really any different to posting anything that has to meet a "dealine"..

 

There is always a risk of mail going astray, be it *on route or whilst at it's destination.

(...*and lets see how haphazard it all gets after "privatisation" eh ;-) )

.

..and as SORN can be done online and over the phone(but I see now,NOT at the PO),I think I would choose one of those options over the postal method, with which you have to hope: a) It gets there. b) It gets processed... ;-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

Ray..

Are there no applicable options on here:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-disc

 

Failing that ,I would've thought contacting DVLA was the next obvious step...

[lennyhb]

Rayjsj - 2013-09-29 12:47 PM

 

I am away in the van during this pleasant September, HOWEVER my vans Road Tax runs out tomorrow, 30th September, I have tried to renew it online, but as I have been away since the kids went back to school, I don't have a renewal notice/code whatever it is, and I don't carry my log book either. HOW do I renew while away (in the UK) ?? Do you still get 14 days 'Grace' before they fine you ? I want to pay the amount but don't know how to do it (without having having to rush home tomorrow). Any Ideas ??

Ray

 

They did away with the 14 days grace many years ago but earlier this they brought in 5 days (I think) grace for online renewal ( has to be renewed before the end of the month). I thought

with online renewal if you don't have the ref number there is an option to use reg number.

 

On the ferry on the way back to cold blighty after 30deg in south of France. Like the free wifi on DFDS.

 

[nowtelse2do]

Is this still the case. The link provided by Peter is dated 25/11/2008.

 

Just asking.

 

Dave

[donna miller]

lennyhb - 2013-09-29 1:09 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2013-09-29 12:47 PM

 

I am away in the van during this pleasant September, HOWEVER my vans Road Tax runs out tomorrow, 30th September, I have tried to renew it online, but as I have been away since the kids went back to school, I don't have a renewal notice/code whatever it is, and I don't carry my log book either. HOW do I renew while away (in the UK) ?? Do you still get 14 days 'Grace' before they fine you ? I want to pay the amount but don't know how to do it (without having having to rush home tomorrow). Any Ideas ??

Ray

 

I thought with online renewal if you don't have the ref number there is an option to use reg number.

 

 

 

You can renew with the registration number but you also need a different reference number which is on the V5. Could you not phone someone to get the number for you?They don't make it easy do they.

[colin]

pepe63 - 2013-09-29 12:58 PM

 

colin - 2013-09-29 11:18 AM

 

If you've already posted the SORN to DVLA and it's got lost, by the time you've realised this you cannot register it anywhere as it flags up as undeclared SORN and you are due a fine.

 

I realise that Colin..but I suppose that's not really any different to posting anything that has to meet a "dealine"..

 

There is always a risk of mail going astray, be it *on route or whilst at it's destination.

(...*and lets see how haphazard it all gets after "privatisation" eh ;-) )

.

..and as SORN can be done online and over the phone(but I see now,NOT at the PO),I think I would choose one of those options over the postal method, with which you have to hope: a) It gets there. b) It gets processed... ;-)

 

I do all my SORN declarations and most of my VED online now, but not everone can or wants to do this, and DVLA give the option of post, but if they mess up you are the one who ends up paying for it. I did once try doing a SORN by telephone, spent in total about 2 hours of telephone time going around in circles as I needed to speak to an advisor, eventualy gave up.

[Guest peter]

I think a lot of people are missing the point. The DVLA have to prove you did not intend to, or did not post the letter. You do not have to prove that you did. The onus of proof is with them. That is what section 7 0f the interpretations act 1978 categorically states, no if or buts. Period.

[Dave Newell]

Rayjsj - 2013-09-29 12:47 PM

 

I am away in the van during this pleasant September, HOWEVER my vans Road Tax runs out tomorrow, 30th September, I have tried to renew it online, but as I have been away since the kids went back to school, I don't have a renewal notice/code whatever it is, and I don't carry my log book either. HOW do I renew while away (in the UK) ?? Do you still get 14 days 'Grace' before they fine you ? I want to pay the amount but don't know how to do it (without having having to rush home tomorrow). Any Ideas ??

Ray

 

Yes (although it won't really help you now) its called forward planning! You can renew your road tax online up to 30 days in advance (I believe but could be mistaken). you knew when it would run out (30th Sept) so why didn't you plan ahead and either renew in advance or make sure you had the relevant documents to do it while away?

 

Rocket science? 'tis not!

 

D.

[Mel B]

Rayjsj - 2013-09-29 12:47 PM

 

I am away in the van during this pleasant September, HOWEVER my vans Road Tax runs out tomorrow, 30th September, I have tried to renew it online, but as I have been away since the kids went back to school, I don't have a renewal notice/code whatever it is, and I don't carry my log book either. HOW do I renew while away (in the UK) ?? Do you still get 14 days 'Grace' before they fine you ? I want to pay the amount but don't know how to do it (without having having to rush home tomorrow). Any Ideas ??

Ray

Ray ... the below link gives details of the legality of your situation:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-when-renewing-your-tax-disc

 

The second paragraph is applicable to you:

 

Since 17 July 2013, when you renew your vehicle tax or when your new car is taxed for the first time, you now have up to 14 days to display the new tax disc on the vehicle. Under the old rules, you had just 5 days to do this.

 

For renewals, this extended period will only apply when your application to renew your tax disc is made before the previous one expires. If the application is made after the current disc expires, then the vehicle will be treated as untaxed and the 14 day rule will not apply.

Basically you MUST APPLY for your new tax disc by tomorrow evening otherwise you are liable to prosecution!!!!! 8-)

[Guest peter]

Don't tell him that Mel. He won't come back to Blighty now. (lol)

[Rayjsj]

Dave Newell - 2013-09-29 9:27 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2013-09-29 12:47 PM

 

I am away in the van during this pleasant September, HOWEVER my vans Road Tax runs out tomorrow, 30th September, I have tried to renew it online, but as I have been away since the kids went back to school, I don't have a renewal notice/code whatever it is, and I don't carry my log book either. HOW do I renew while away (in the UK) ?? Do you still get 14 days 'Grace' before they fine you ? I want to pay the amount but don't know how to do it (without having having to rush home tomorrow). Any Ideas ??

Ray

 

Yes (although it won't really help you now) its called forward planning! You can renew your road tax online up to 30 days in advance (I believe but could be mistaken). you knew when it would run out (30th Sept) so why didn't you plan ahead and either renew in advance or make sure you had the relevant documents to do it while away?

 

Rocket science? 'tis not!

 

D.

It's called being 'spontaneous' we are away in the UK, I HAVE the vehicle with me, AND the Amount required to pay for the Disc. Why can't I just pay the fee and get the disc at a Post office ? I have NO intention of not paying the fee. And NO, you cannot renew online Without the Log book or the renewal form. (I tried). I find it hard enough planning a trip away as it is, without more worries.

By the way my Insurance ran out during September as well, but that was simple to renew online.

WHY are Government Departments so Ponderous and awkward. Ray

 

And telling someone that they forgot to do something, when they already know that they did. Is not really being Helpful Is It ?

[pepe63xnotuse]

But Ray..you don't come over as if you're saying "..Oh damn!..I forgot the road tax was up..!?"..instead it just sounds like you're blaming DVLA (or the "government")...

 

Being "spontaneous" is all well and good..but your VED expiry date didn't "spontaneously" jump from out of nowhere, did it.... (lol)

 

So, were NONE of the DVLA links that we put up of any use then.. ?....and can you get no joy out of ringing them? :-S

 

(..and if I was you, I'd be keeping a copy of the V5c in the van in the future, as you never know when it'll come in handy.. ;-) )

[Muswell]

It'spossibly so that it becomes harder to tax a stolen vehicle.

[Mel B]

So come on Ray ... what have you done ... are you legal now or not!!! 8-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

...they only gave him the one phone call..! 8-) ....

 

"Free The West Wales One!" (lol)

[Guest peter]

I reckon he'll get at least a five stretch. :D

[Rayjsj]

To all who were so concerned about my 'Plight'. *-) Today bought £165 worth of 'Legality' in the form of a little red/pink disc, at my local Post Office, no-one blinked an eye that I was 2 days late.

I have also made a Copy of the logbook, V 5 whatever, which i will keep in the van (in the safe). For future referance or Requirement, as we are contemplating actually crossing the channel next spring, and I believe a copy of your V5 document is required, along with flourecsant vests,warning triangle, spare bulbs etc., .

Has anyone heard that the way Motorhomes are accessed for Road Tax is changing (or has changed ?) I thought that I may be affected by it, but no, my Van is a 2012 model, but has NO co2 levels stated on the Logbook, so I still come under the 'old' regime, so mine stays at £165. even though it is a 'Euro5'. Anyone with a 'new' Motorhome yet know the 'new' levels of Road Tax ??

Ray

 

The weather has taken a turn for the worse, so not such a hardship to 'have' to come home after all.