hallii Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 With a turbo spinning at maybe 150,000 rpm and sitting on two oil cooled bearings it makes sense not to cut the oil supply by turning the engine off whilst the turbo is still spinning. So heat aside, I let my turbo spool down for a minute or so before turning off. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the general Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I am impressed with the tips yes without doubt 1 top quality oil/ fuel 2 let turbo cool/slowdown I remember operating plant D8 cat dozer after full shift you had to let engine idle for 15 mins or so before turning off otherwise expect the worse ! I also would like opinion about additives in fuel I never use them Also service intervals are they now too long ie 20000 mls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 A sad story, hope you are sorted, but are you sure is was (is) a 2.2 litre? Fiat had 2.3 engines, very different from the 2.2 in the Citroen/Peugeot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Hi,To prevent premature failure of engine and turbos use the correct oil grade as per manufacture.Yes I know some Fiat engines did leak with one grade of oil stipulated by the manufacture and changing to another grade helped this (with more frequent oil changes needed) , the long change intervals should be ignored and oil changed more often. regarding oil additives ,really should not be needed if a good synthetic oil is being used and changed at regular intervals.It is a very good practice to let the engine idle for min to let a turbo spool down but now with VNT they spool down very quickly anyway. Again Geoff sorry to hear of your mishap on holidays, it happens ,no one hurt is everything, and I hope it all works out OK ,Keep us informed.Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Billggski - 2013-10-21 9:09 PM A sad story, hope you are sorted, but are you sure is was (is) a 2.2 litre? Fiat had 2.3 engines, very different from the 2.2 in the Citroen/Peugeot. The Peugeot uses the same engine, but at 120 PS as opposed to the Ducato's 100 PS output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Since I am very interested in the outcome and causes of this failure I am using this to bump the post up. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy mccord Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Well the only input i can add to this is that 2 ford owners i know (chausson) have both had an issue with a failed injector, which led to a holed piston and obviously a trashed turbo, The garage mention that at 100K mileage a failed injector is known issue, leading to this failure, needless to say both m/homes were very low mileage Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 Hi All, Thanks for your help on this. We arrived home last night its been a long and tiring journey. To answer the issues raised the vehicle is indeed my 2007 Swift Suntor 2.2 the mileage is around 37,000 not excessive for the age, the oil which is to spec was changed 6000mls ago and was due to be changed when I returned to the Island. The engine will start ok but will only run on three cylinders and pours out smoke due to the turbo failure, hopefully its the injector that blocked with oil causing the misfire, but it could also be a hole in a piston or worse so until I can do a compression test on the dud cylinder I do not know whether the engine is damaged or not, in either case it is going to be very expensive to fix. The camper is still in France waiting to be returned in the next week or so. I have been on to Fiat this morning to see if they can help towards the cost of the repairs as I do not think that a catastrophic failure is acceptable on a vehicle of this age, I await their response although I must admit the person I spoke to on the phone was most helpful. Please take note that should any of you have the misfortune to suffer turbo failure the symptoms are loss of power followed by huge amounts of white smoke, stop as soon as poss leaving it in gear with the clutch depressed as the engine is burning its own oil, turn of the engine, if it continues to run as mine did release the clutch and stall the engine immediately to prevent over revving and engine damage. There is no warning, I was doing about 60mph with no problems no warning lights on and the engine management light has not come on so according to the ECU there is no fault. I will let you know how I get on with Fiat and what the damage is. Thanks Geoff C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Thanks for the update Geoff, glad all are home safe, it can be rebuilt , people ,,,well not so easy .Regards Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 Hi, Just an up date, had conversation with Fiat about the problem, not very forth coming with intervention of help, the said due to the age of the vehicle they could not offer anything that would be beneficial, so its on its way back, and I will sort it my self. Meanwhile I am looking for a replacement but this time a Van conversion possibly on a Renault Master I have a Renault Kangoo and find it very reliable, I would like to know what experience any of you have had. Will up date on engine problem when I have investigated further. Regards Geoff C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hi, Camper is now back with me, initial investigations suggest that there is a hole in one of the pistons so the next job is to remove the cylinder head in order to see the damage. Depending on what I find will determine whether I can replace the broken piston and conrod then rebuild the engine or if I have to replace the engine block. it is unfortunately going to be costly. I will post again when I have more info with some pics of the damage. there was nothing I could have done to prevent the damage the failed tubo caused,and have been in contact with Fiat again but with no avail. Regards Geoff C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Glad at least that both you and the van are safely back home and the only injuries are to your wallet. Good luck with the investigations and repairs. Was the cause ever established or could it happen again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I have pondered a bit (I do this a lot nowadays) are you saying that the turbo failure allowed lube oil into the cylinders and this "overfuelling" thus burnt a hole in the piston? Or did the hole in the piston occur as a result of overfuelling with diesel as the result of a defective injector and the sump oil was then drawn up to cause the engine to runaway? I don't suppose anyone will ever know for definite, chicken and egg etc. However, it may not be as bad as you think, it will cost a bit but a new turbo (or rebuild) rebuilt injectors, new piston etc might be "all" it needs. A good engine rebuild company will be well used to doing this sort of work. If the engine is rebuildable it might be easier to do an exchange. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I'm a bit puzzled by this scenario, as well. Particularly by how the lubricating oil, which mainly lives in the sump and is pumped only to specific parts of the engine, gets into the combustion chamber in sufficient quantity to run the engine. Where is the point of entry to the combustion chamber? It seems to me it must be from the camshaft area, and thence via the valves. I apologise that this is of no help to Geoff, but I remain curious as to the mechanism by which this is supposed to happen. Van suddenly loses power. Loss of turbo, or other mechanical damage within engine (presumed not electronics in view of state of engine). Van stopped and then will not turn off, with revs rising. So fuel of some sort available with no apparent control over quantity. Assumed electronic injectors inoperative due to cut ignition, so alternative source points to lube oil, but how? Suspected holed piston. Holed by what? Dropped valve head, or sufficient engine oil to "hydraulic" a piston? If the latter, as a consequence of ingesting lube oil, why just the one? With the engine running away and one piston holed it must have been running only on the other three, so where was this oil coming from? OTOH, if the turbo broke up, sending shrapnel into one of the cylinders, that may have holed a pot, and the shattered turbo may have provided a path for oil from its (presumably) disintegrated bearings to be drawn through the inlet manifold and into the other three cylinders, possibly recycling what could be drawn into the exhaust manifold via the holed pot. Is it something along these lines? Apologies for the unhelpful speculation Geoff, but as I said, I am curious. I very much hope the damage is not as severe as you fear, and that repairs are economical. So, trying now to be a bit more positive, can you get access to the workshop while they strip and examine? Might be worth taking some good pics and submitting them as evidence to Fiat. I think I might also be inclined to ask for all the knackered parts to be handed over, in case there is anything that could be examined by a metallurgical lab. Don't think the costs are necessarily that high. It might give proof of the failure route. There must surely be a defective component at the root of this failure, and Fiat may change their stance if provided with expert analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-11-08 6:32 PM I'm a bit puzzled by this scenario, as well. Particularly by how the lubricating oil, which mainly lives in the sump and is pumped only to specific parts of the engine, gets into the combustion chamber in sufficient quantity to run the engine. The usual cause of this scenario is failed turbo seals allowing the lubricating oil that is pumped to the turbo bearings through into the air that the turbo is forcing into the engine inlet for combustion. The turbo will continue to be fed with oil via its galleries and will force feed the engine with oil-rich air allowing it to run on even with no diesel being injected. It was a fairly common fault with early versions of the Renault 1.9dci engine, for example, forcing Renault to extend warranties for turbo-related problems to 50,000 miles and 5 years. In this scenario the engine is no longer being governed to its normal maximum revs and can over-rev itself to destruction if enough oil is getting past the turbo seals. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Looking at Geoff's post it's only an assumption that a piston has been holed. I wouldn't mind betting that it isn't the case. A turbo blew on me some years back, the vehicle was pulling a fully laden tank trailer but the only damage was to the turbo itself. The engine was a Rolls Royce Eagle with over 600,000 miles on the clock in an ERF tractor unit. I was towed to a garage where a new turbo was fitted and was back on the road in no time. The engine ran as sweet as a nut afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted November 8, 2013 Author Share Posted November 8, 2013 Hi, the thinking is that the turbo broke up with the bearing seals which are pressure feed from the engine failing, allowing oil to be drawn into a very hot turbo, this mixing with very hot air into the combustion chamber caused the engine to burn its own oil so when the ignition was turned of the engine will rev up until it self destructs throwng conrods out through the crankcase. The amount of smoke out of the exhaust was huge about 3-4 ltrs of oil was consumed in minuets, which is when I think a piston failed. When I stopped I put it into gear to stop the engine before it over revved to destruction. There are 2 ways the piston could be holed the most likely to be one cylinder hydraulic ted due to the amount of oil being introduced or the excessive heat putting a hole in it. The tests I have done show no compression on one cylinder and a large volume of air is being emitted from the oil filler hole in sequence with the firing order so the evidence is fairly conclusive. I have had in depth discussions with Fiat but they insist that due to the age of the vehicle they are unable to help. I hope to have the cylinder head and turbo off next week and inspect the damage, If there is indeed a damaged piston I hope to replace piston , conrod and turbo, but I will need to source the parts at an economic price. The Fiat commercial garage in France insisted that a new engine was needed and it was not possible to replace a broken piston. I will let you know how I get on, time to get my hands dirty. regards Geoff C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Thanks for the explanation Geoff, and the best of luck with the investigation and the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Geoff, AIUI another mode of failure for a diesel engine is when an injector is faulty or fails and overfuels one cylinder causing excess temperature and consequently holing the piston. This then causes excessive crankcase pressure which in turn forces the engine oil into the breather system and subsequently the air intake. The engine then 'runs away' fueled by the engine oil until failure. So turbo failure may not have been the cause. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Sounds to me like the turbo seals went and fueled the engine with it's own oil to runaway condition. The over revving caused it to drop a valve. Result......holed piston. Or over revving caused cam belt to jump teeth and valve hits piston. Result.....holed piston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Keithl - 2013-11-09 9:40 AM Geoff, AIUI another mode of failure for a diesel engine is when an injector is faulty or fails and overfuels one cylinder causing excess temperature and consequently holing the piston. This then causes excessive crankcase pressure which in turn forces the engine oil into the breather system and subsequently the air intake. The engine then 'runs away' fueled by the engine oil until failure. So turbo failure may not have been the cause. Keith.How can a holed piston cause excess crankcase pressure. The piston cannot create any compression and is just slopping up and down in the cylinder and with the valve gear still operating, any pressure will be evacuated through the exhaust and inlet valves. It would however make for a lot of smoke from the exhaust as oil mist can go directly out of the exhaust. So again.........no excess crankcase pressure. The o/p will probably have to invest in a new catalytic converter also, owing to the excess burned and unburned oil passing through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 peter - 2013-11-09 6:36 PM How can a holed piston cause excess crankcase pressure. By allowing combustion pressure to pass through into the crankcase (when all valves are closed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 1) Are you telling me that a diesel engine can ignite diesel fuel with a holed piston?. 2) Are you aware of the compression pressure required to ignite diesel oil?. As 1 above is impossible, it stands to reason that no combustion gasses can enter the crankcase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Peter you are taking a simplistic view of the air being displaced into the the crankcrase is the same as the volume of air being sucked out of the crankcase, but as the volume of air is more in the crankcase than in a cylinder the pressure in the crankcase will not rise as much as in the cylinder. Therefore the net flow will be into the crankcase and the crankcase pressure will rise. Another way is to just think of it as a Pump, it is sucking air in through the inlet valve and trying to pump it out of the exhaust valve, and as there is a hole in the pump displacement piston some will be pumped through the the hole into teh crank case. What you are suggesting is if you have a bycycle pump and the pump washer is leaking then the pump will be no less efficient than if the washer sealed properly. But, you now when the washer leaks air it is less efficient because some air is lost around the seal. In the engine on the intake stroke air is sucked in, some coming from teh crankcase, on teh compression and foring stroked air is dipslaced into the crankase not all of it returning at the end of the firing stoke (noting we have no combustion) because it takes time to get through the hole, when the exhaust stroke starts we push some air out of the exhaust and some back through the piston hole...the net result being air displaced into the crankcase. Another way There is one stroke with the cylinder pressure lower than atomspheric pressure which is the induction stroke, and three stokes with the pressure higher than atmospheric pressure So we have 1 stoke sucking air out of the crankcase and 3 pushing it into the crankcase via the hole. net result is flow of air into the crankcase until mean pressures are equalised. Now open the il filler and air will be forced out. Convinced yet? Excuse any spelling errors and mistakes...want to watch the telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Depends how big the hole is, big enough and no air will be drawn in throu the inlet assuming cranking speeds when turbo doesn't do much, the piston just moves up and down and the air flows from above to below, Been there,done that, got the teeshirt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.