Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Does not matter what the size of hole is as long as there is some material going up and down the cylinder. Obviously if it is massive hole the amount of air displaced into the crankcase from the moving material wil be masked by other factors such as gasses bypassing rings on other cylinders. But a 2 inch hole or a 1/4 inch hole, crankcase pressure will rise. We have ignored the residual exhaust manifold pressure which will also feed back into the cylinder if lower than the exhaust manifold pressure due to a very large hole.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Brambles - 2013-11-10 8:17 PM Does not matter what the size of hole is as long as there is some material going up and down the cylinder. Obviously if it is massive hole the amount of air displaced into the crankcase from the moving material wil be masked by other factors such as gasses bypassing rings on other cylinders. But a 2 inch hole or a 1/4 inch hole, crankcase pressure will rise. We have ignored the residual exhaust manifold pressure which will also feed back into the cylinder if lower than the exhaust manifold pressure due to a very large hole.. I can assure you that a big enough hole and there will be no increase in crankcase pressure, I'm not talking of any theoretical case, I'm talking of actual experiance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I am talking about when engine is running, you seem to be talking about when it it cranking. Anyway the point under discussion is Peter saying there should be no increase in pressure when Goeff said there was an increase in pressure. It could be caused by a hole in the piston. Peter appeared to be saying it could not be a hole in the piston. So lets not get too side tracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I find it difficult to comprehend how a piston which is not a piston can suck and blow? If its got a huge hole in it then nothing happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 "I'm not talking of any theoretical case". Surely it remains theoretical until Geoff has the head off and actually finds what is wrong. I suspect I have taken your quote out of context, apologies if I have but trying to go with flow of conversation and not too much on reading every word and analysng it . Still have my fingers crossed its just a blown head gasket but admittedly very unlikely given the story and losing masses of oil which is usually via the turbo bearings failed...but you never know as could have been pumped through the gasket from an oil feed to the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 sshortcircuit - 2013-11-10 8:44 PM I find it difficult to comprehend how a piston which is not a piston can suck and blow? If its got a huge hole in it then nothing happens? IImagine dropping a piston with a large hole in it down drain pipe, will some air come out the other end of the pipe? Yes. The larger teh hole the less air. Drop a small washer down a drain pipe, some air will come the the other end.. not a lot but some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Remember also when the holed piston is falling in the cylinder there are two pistons rising lowering pressure in the crackcase, this helps suck air in through the open inlet valve in damaged piston cylinder then when the two pistons fall again, in effect only one is rising ( as other has large hole) so then the increased mass of air in the crackcase is compressed. 2 against one rising , so crankcase pressure rises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 But a crankcase is not an open chamber. As two pistons rise two pistons fall so one(two) balance each other out. I have understood crankcase pressure was a result of combustion gases bypassing pistons to raise pressure??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Brambles - 2013-11-10 8:35 PM I am talking about when engine is running, you seem to be talking about when it it cranking. Anyway the point under discussion is Peter saying there should be no increase in pressure when Goeff said there was an increase in pressure. It could be caused by a hole in the piston. Peter appeared to be saying it could not be a hole in the piston. So lets not get too side tracked.Try reading my posts. You have got it totally wrong. Also the post I was answering stated that COMBUSTION gasses would pressurise the crankcase. With a hole in the piston this cannot happen. Next time READ THE POST and stop watching telly. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 But if one has a massive hole, you have two pistons going down as in effect one goes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Brambles - 2013-11-10 8:50 PM sshortcircuit - 2013-11-10 8:44 PM I find it difficult to comprehend how a piston which is not a piston can suck and blow? If its got a huge hole in it then nothing happens? IImagine dropping a piston with a large hole in it down drain pipe, will some air come out the other end of the pipe? Yes. The larger teh hole the less air. Drop a small washer down a drain pipe, some air will come the the other end.. not a lot but some.It's already been assumed it's the turbo seals going that caused it to over rev. Long before the piston was holed, I would guess it's the over revving engine that caused the holed piston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Brambles - 2013-11-10 9:44 PM But if one has a massive hole, you have two pistons going down as in effect one goes up.Whatever, there is still no combustion gasses into crankcase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Peter is this an inquest or a discussion, I will take your word for it I have got you wrong, I would not sit in a pub having a conversation and recording and then playing it back to prove what I or anyone else said and would not expect them to either. If you say I got it wrong.... fine, as no intention to go back and read what you actually said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 peter - 2013-11-10 9:47 PM Brambles - 2013-11-10 9:44 PM But if one has a massive hole, you have two pistons going down as in effect one goes up.Whatever, there is still no combustion gasses into crankcase. I KNOW there is no bloody combustion gases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Oops, I'm out. I would really like to understand how an engine can over rev with a holed piston. Heard of a trawler in Aberdeen harbour with an engine that would no stop as the bores were so worn it was drawing oil up from the sump, but then that could just be a good tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Peter, its just that I thought you originally questioned how a holed piston could cause increased crankcase pressure and I tried to explain how. Obvioualy I ust have misread you somwhere so can only apologise. I was jusy trying hard to join in on the converstion, my short term memory is not what it was and I can only think through discussions which are fairly narrow ...If i go back and read posts I actually forget what it was I was actually going to say in the 1st place. Its a failing in my part which is getting harder for me to cope with....hence a lot less posts from me these days. In my head I can fully understand problems, what I cannot do these days is get them down in typed text, sort spellling and typos and still remember what I was trying to say....sometimes believing I have already type it. It takes me quite a long time now to type anything. Multi tasking problem I suppose. I do my best and do not mean to contradict what others have said.. Sorry.. It is getting quite a challenge for me these days to follow what others are saying...well I can follow it, just cannot remember it. Maybe I do not fully understand what goes on when a piston gets holed...does it really matter.. Geoff will hopefully soon enough find what has actually failed and what has not and until then I will back down from the discusson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 O/k I understand, My memory isn't what it was these days either, so my wife tells me. All this is just conjecture anyway, so lets just see what turns up as the real culprit for this disaster. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted November 11, 2013 Author Share Posted November 11, 2013 Hi, A colleague that runs a local garage called today with his diagnostics,we plugged it into the service port, to ascertain which cylinder was misfiring. Results were No 3 cylinder had misfire, there is no compression on this cylinder other than this the engine runs fine but smokes a lot his opinion is that 1, there is a hole in the piston 2, some shrapnel from the turbo has jammed a valve open 3, the engine hydraulic ted and blew the head gasket in either case further investigation is required so next week when he has room in his Garage for the camper we are going to remove the injector from this cylinder and using an endoscope inspect the piston and valves. Depending on what we find we will then proceed to remove the cylinder head off. If the piston is damage then we think it is possible to remove the sump without having to take the engine out and remove the broken piston, this is worse case scenario. The general opinion is that this should not have happened on vehicle of this age at only 37k miles. FIAT DO NOT WANT TO KNOW AND WILL NOT HELP AT ALL. I will fix it and the sell it but will not buy another Fiat. will up date when I have more info this could happen to you, but really hope it does not the cost is going to be in the thousands to repair this. Regards to you all and many thanks for your support it is much appreciated. Geoff C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 My understanding is that Fait only fit their own 2.3 engine whilst Peugeot and Citron fit the 2.2 Ford unit. It is generally held that the 2.3 is a sweeter engine than the rather gruff Ford based unit. Just out of interest was your base vehicle a Fait and if it was are you sure it had a 2.2 engine fitted. You certainly have my sympathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted November 11, 2013 Author Share Posted November 11, 2013 Hi Colin, My base vehicle is indeed a Fiat X250 base vehicle fitted with the Ford/ Peugeot 2.2multijet 100ps engine. The Peugot base vehicle with the same engine is rated as 120ps these engines are based on the 4hv engine type. I agree with you that the 2.3 Fiat engine is a better unit as it drives a 6 speed gearbox rather than the 5 speed on the 2.2 version and it probably does not have to work as hard, but as you are well aware there have been serious gearbox issues with reverse gear ratios. However I do not think that this sort of catastrophic engine failure is acceptable at this age or mileage,there was no warning before it failed and no warning lights have come on since. Regards Geoff C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Geoff Have you tried asking advice on the Transit Forum as from personal experience there are some real experts on there who might be able to offer an explanation as to why this disaster occurred? http://fordtransit.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Geoff Cole - 2013-11-11 8:27 PM My base vehicle is indeed a Fiat X250 base vehicle fitted with the Ford/ Peugeot 2.2multijet 100ps engine. The Peugot base vehicle with the same engine is rated as 120ps these engines are based on the 4hv engine type. I agree with you that the 2.3 Fiat engine is a better unit as it drives a 6 speed gearbox rather than the 5 speed on the 2.2 version Geoff, in Euro4 guise the Peugeot base vehicle was also available with the 100bhp 4HU engine and 5 speed box - most of the Discoverer group (Elddis/Compass) vans of that era where built on that base. The 120bhp 4HV-engined Peugeot base did have the 6 speed box athough a completely different unit to that fitted to the Fiat 2.3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnerontheroad Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Any update? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Hi All, At Last the engine is stripped, not good news though, the cylinder head, valves etc are all ok but the bottom end is not. There is a crack and hole in No 3 piston and a crack in No 4. The turbo is in one piece but is full of oil, the oil seals have failed and this has drawn oil from the sump and passed into the inlet manifold and into the engine, this has resulted in No 3 & 4 cylinder hydraulicing due to the volume of oil being ingested causing the pistons to break. There is a problem with pistons cracking on these engines Fiat are aware of the problem so are Ford who make the engine I have had a word with Fiat and await to hear from them. So for the shopping list: 1 set of pistons modified to the latest spec £72.00 each, 1 recon Turbo £372.00, 1 set big end shells, 1 timing chain, 1 set gaskets and various bits plus a hefty labour charge. Not good news. I will keep you posted as to the progress and final cost, but surly this sort of major damage should not be able to occur due to the failure of a couple of oil seals. Geoff C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Unfortunately the smallest item can cause the biggest failure. I've seen a BMW racing engine where a core plug blew out, all the coolant disappeared before the temperature gauge registered and we shovelled the engine out of the sump. It sounds like a second hand engine would be cheaper than a re- build, it's a van engine so there should be a lot about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.