euroserv Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Geoff Cole - 2014-02-13 7:53 PM Hi All, At Last the engine is stripped, not good news though, the cylinder head, valves etc are all ok but the bottom end is not. There is a crack and hole in No 3 piston and a crack in No 4. The turbo is in one piece but is full of oil, the oil seals have failed and this has drawn oil from the sump and passed into the inlet manifold and into the engine, this has resulted in No 3 & 4 cylinder hydraulicing due to the volume of oil being ingested causing the pistons to break. There is a problem with pistons cracking on these engines Fiat are aware of the problem so are Ford who make the engine I have had a word with Fiat and await to hear from them. So for the shopping list: 1 set of pistons modified to the latest spec £72.00 each, 1 recon Turbo £372.00, 1 set big end shells, 1 timing chain, 1 set gaskets and various bits plus a hefty labour charge. Not good news. I will keep you posted as to the progress and final cost, but surly this sort of major damage should not be able to occur due to the failure of a couple of oil seals. Geoff C Geoff, Although it is a well known fact around these parts that I am not a fan of the 2.2 Ford/Peugeot engine I think I should dispute the fact that this engine has a known problem with cracking pistons. All engines will eventually fail for one reason or another and few will actually just wear out. The forces that are suffered when an engine hydraulics whether it be by injection of flood water or by fuel due to injector problems or oil due to turbo problems it is inevitable that something would give. It has to. In years gone by, when diesel engines had higher compression ratios the piston may well have found itself leaving via the side of the block (which is messy) and would have consigned the whole unit to the scrap heap. Turbo's (on all TD vehicles) have an annoying habit of failing and there are many reasons why but the most common is oil seal failure either by lack of oil pressure or just wear. The oil feed pipes to the turbo and the oil pump must be carefully checked before the engine is re-built but I would be glad that the unit CAN be rebuilt. The only precautionary measure that ALL owners can undertake is to check your oil level regularly and make sure that there are no leaks of oil anywhere but even a small leak that is not dripping from the turbo must be dealt with quickly. This and any increase in smoke should be treated as a very serious warning to get things checked very soon. In summary; In similar situations all vehicles may suffer piston damage. It is preferable to the alternatives which could include damage to the engine block, crankshaft and con rods. All considerably more expensive or potentially fatal to the engine. I should also add that Fiat engines, followed by Ford power the majority of motorhomes and so there will be more reports of problems with them on forums like this. When it comes to vans, Ford are the most common on the road, followed by Mercedes and some way down the list are Fiat. As a proportion of these vehicles far more Fiat's and Fords are owned by small businesses and those owners are more likely to report problems and discuss issues. The vast majority of Mercedes vans are on contract hire or rental to larger fleets (Northgate Vehicle Rental registers 8 out of 10 Merc vans on the road in the UK!) and because the maintenance or repair of these vehicles is dealt with by the supplier; the user does not get to know everything that goes wrong and they are seldom discussed on forums. Just because you don't read much about them does not mean they are perfect. You just have to understand the reasons for the lack of discussion. The end user is not paying for repairs! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I have heard reports of engines that were made as naturally aspirated then having an aftermarket turbo fitted expiring this way. Also engines that have been chipped to improve performance. The problem here is the same for both. If it were a car then the additional power would only be used for short periods of acceleration. But in a motorhome the additional power can be used for very long periods when climbing hills and they don,t like it uppem! Even Mercs go BANG. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 Hi thanks for your replies, It would seem that the 2.2 engine is not fit for purpose when fitted to a motor home that is going to be used for long distances, If I had known this I would have gone for a larger engine. I now have the camper back with a rebuilt engine final cost for the damage from a blown turbo £4,600 it is running really well but I will not be keeping it a sorry lesson. Regards Geoff C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Clive - 2014-02-15 12:24 PM I have heard reports of engines that were made as naturally aspirated then having an aftermarket turbo fitted expiring this way. Also engines that have been chipped to improve performance. The problem here is the same for both. If it were a car then the additional power would only be used for short periods of acceleration. But in a motorhome the additional power can be used for very long periods when climbing hills and they don,t like it uppem! Even Mercs go BANG. Clive You've hit the nail on the head here Clive. I've been banging on about this for some time. I know of two chipped engines that have failed though I must admit that in both cases the drivers often had to cover large distances in short times and did tend to push on a bit to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Colin Leake - 2014-03-13 7:05 PM Clive - 2014-02-15 12:24 PM I have heard reports of engines that were made as naturally aspirated then having an aftermarket turbo fitted expiring this way. Also engines that have been chipped to improve performance. The problem here is the same for both. If it were a car then the additional power would only be used for short periods of acceleration. But in a motorhome the additional power can be used for very long periods when climbing hills and they don,t like it uppem! Even Mercs go BANG. Clive You've hit the nail on the head here Clive. I've been banging on about this for some time. I know of two chipped engines that have failed though I must admit that in both cases the drivers often had to cover large distances in short times and did tend to push on a bit to say the least. Thanks for that easily understood posting Clive and Colin. If you want to blow an engine up not designed for the extra power then chipping it will soon make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Were they properly uprated or just had a plug in that raises the pump pressure? I have run re-mapped cars for many years with no issues. The 2.3 fiat engine can be ordered in 130 or 150 bhp, and my last mini had the same engine as the cooper with a different ecu mapping. It's how you maintain and drive an engine (plus good luck) that is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I posted the following comment yesterday evening at 6.42 but no idea what happened to it!! "Wow Geoff. Glad all is well now and hope that you can sell quickly and get a decent price." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Clive - 2014-02-15 12:24 PM I have heard reports of engines that were made as naturally aspirated then having an aftermarket turbo fitted expiring this way. Also engines that have been chipped to improve performance. The problem here is the same for both. If it were a car then the additional power would only be used for short periods of acceleration. But in a motorhome the additional power can be used for very long periods when climbing hills and they don,t like it uppem! Even Mercs go BANG. Clive Interesting to read your comment re aftermarket Turbo's, for the record and to give another side. I have run a TB Turbo converted Boxer for 13 years now with absolutely no problem (hope I haven't jinxed it!) whatsoever and I know of several friends running uprated 'chipped' motorhomes with no problem, I also know of two manufacturer built TD engines that have blown the turbo, so I am not sure that your statement is a definitive rule! Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Geoff Cole - 2014-03-13 6:29 PM ...It would seem that the 2.2 engine is not fit for purpose when fitted to a motor home that is going to be used for long distances... That's a peculiar view. The Ford-derived 2.2litre engine used in your motorhome was a development of the 2.0litre engine introduced in 2000 for the FWD Transit Mk 6. It's always been turbocharged, has been fitted - in varying degrees of 'tune' - to a wide variety of vehicles and (in 2.2litre capacity) is now the standard motor for all Transit Mk 7s, FWD or RWD, with power outputs up to 155bhp. It's also used in Citroen- and Peugeot-based motorhomes and commercial panel vans. While it could reasonably be argued that a large motorhome should have a large capacity motor, that rule of thumb has not prevented many people buying and being satisfied with large motorhomes powered by a Mercedes engine with an even smaller capacity than yours. It would be hugely optimistic to believe that a similar thing could not have happened if you'd opted for, say, a '2.3litre' Fiat motor with another 89cc of capacity or even a 3.0litre motor. The lesson to be learned is not that motorhomes that are going to be driven for long distances need a motor with a capacity over a certain threshold, but that "S**t happens". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Absolutely well said Derek! For me the main discerning feature between the available engines is whether the camshaft is belt or chain driven, I have little faith in cam belts and change mine at least at the prescribed time. If the option is available it would be chain driven every time. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Just checked my years of driving and its 68 and I've never had a damaged or faulty engine. My theory has always been to choose the largest engine that's available for your vehicle and to drive it well inside its limits of speed and weight allowances and to maintain smooth progress at all times. Perhaps due to never being in a hurry plus regular maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Although chain driven camshafts appear to be more reliable I understand the chain can still break with the same disastrous results. Is there an engine that is totally gear driven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I had a timing chain go on a 1975 Rover 2200 SC when it was 5 years old :'(.............Can't remember the mileage, but it wasn't high :-S.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcloser Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 As some of you are aware we recently replaced the engine in our nissan navara,also had a new clutch and turbo at same time it had done 120000 miles,bottom end bearings went,a common fault on the d22 engine so i have been informed,it was serviced regularly.Garage that did the work recommend an oil change every 3000 miles because we tow,it is the first engine I've blown in my life,had a timing belt break on an old bedford cf,no damage at all B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 capcloser - 2014-03-18 7:48 PM ,had a timing belt break on an old bedford cf,no damage at all B-) Damage to the old Vauxhall OHC engines depended on which one you had, on some the valves cleared the pistons, others like on gf's fathers they hit when the cambelt broke. p.s. gf still has a cf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 sshortcircuit - 2014-03-18 7:24 PM Although chain driven camshafts appear to be more reliable I understand the chain can still break with the same disastrous results. Is there an engine that is totally gear driven? There have been plenty of motors that have gear-driven camshafts, but the only one likely to have found its way into a motorhome is probably VW's 2.5litre 5-cylinder powerplant. The pros and cons of the various types of camshaft drive-systems are described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_belt_(camshaft) and there's a listing of vehicles using a camshaft chain/gear drive here http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/chain-cam/ Machines break - it's in their job description! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chello Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 IN 1957 ibought a 1934 MG it had a six cylinder overhead cam engine with upright dynamo on front of engine with bevel gear to drive camshaft. Oil leaked into the dynamo and was a ongoing problem,No belt or chain but other problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-03-19 8:53 AM Machines break - it's in their job description! But when complicated machines break...............the bill is much bigger..............as is evident from this forum 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artheytrate Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 A few years ago I owned a Citroen D25 Diesel van and it broke the cam belt twice, the only damage both times was bent push rods. The mechanic said they were designed to bend up so that nothing else was damaged. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 sshortcircuit - 2014-03-18 7:24 PM Although chain driven camshafts appear to be more reliable I understand the chain can still break with the same disastrous results. Is there an engine that is totally gear driven? Ford used to fit a gear drive V4 in Tranny's, they had their own problems, was replaced by the belt drive pinto which in my experience was much more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcloser Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-03-19 8:08 PM Derek Uzzell - 2014-03-19 8:53 AM Machines break - it's in their job description! But when complicated machines break...............the bill is much bigger..............as is evident from this forum 8-) Tell me about it dave my savings are about 6500 grand lighter! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcloser Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Actually i meant £6500 not 65 thousand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Cam belts have a recommended time span, dual mass flywheels just seem to break at any time. (The Fiat 2.3 hasn't got one) They are both ways of smoothing out the engine output, if you have a timing chain you may have a DMF! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Billggski - 2014-03-20 9:03 AM dual mass flywheels just seem to break at any time. (The Fiat 2.3 hasn't got one) ! Oh yes it has (lol) The manuel gearbox does not have one but the Comformatic does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 colin - 2014-03-19 8:25 PM sshortcircuit - 2014-03-18 7:24 PM Although chain driven camshafts appear to be more reliable I understand the chain can still break with the same disastrous results. Is there an engine that is totally gear driven? Ford used to fit a gear drive V4 in Tranny's, they had their own problems, was replaced by the belt drive pinto which in my experience was much more reliable. I had one of these engines and it had so much torque it was a dream to drive. The van had been converted so I could transport my stockcar which had the 2000 sohc pinto engine with skimmed head, high lift cam free flow exhaust etc. When the belt broke that invariable was the end of the engine with a piston out the side, fortunately not very often as I changed the belt frequently. Those were the days, no electronic fuel injection, engine management system, just pure skill in setting engine up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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