A-Frame towing

[Dave225]

DJP - 2013-10-30 7:36 PM

 

Dave225 - 2013-10-30 7:11 PM

 

Spain has indeed become quite 'hot' on cracking down on A Frames. Whether this is legal under EU rules is not really relevant if it is you stopped by the Guardia Civil you wish to travel with an easy heart in Spain, then use a trailer. I not seen any A Frames in the last few years, only trailers, so many have decided a peaceful life is the way to go.

 

You need to get out and about more whilst in Spain. On a smallish site 120 pitches near Alicante almost 10% of the motorhomes on there had toads, not only English, but French and Dutch.

To mention again A Frames are NOT illegal ANYWHERE, it is the towing of one vehicle with another that is illegal, either with A frame, rope, chain or rigid pole, UNLESS you are an authorised recovery agent.

 

Question on retrospective law if new braking regs come into force in 2014.

Which bit of the setup will be affected if law is NOT applied retrospectively i.e.

The towing vehicle?

The towed vehicle?

The A frame?

 

If it is the towing vehicle, then if you change that you can no longer tow with your A frame?

If it is the towed vehicle, change that and you can no longer tow with your A frame?

If it's the A frame, keep that and tow for ever changing tow and towed vehicle at your leisure?

 

Whatever floats your boat, as they say. From what you are saying, and I have seen similar elsewhere, it is illegal to tow another vehicle in Spain, with your stated exceptions. So I am not sure that our conclusions are not the same at the end of the day. On the large site we use there was not a single A Frame, only trailers. As a tugger it does not affect me but on talking to some Brit motorhomers they advised me that at Santander any motorhome with an A Frame was being stopped and ordered to disconnect. As Guardia Civil carry guns, I for one would not wish to get on the wrong side of them.

 

As for toads I have only seen them in ponds myself. Trying to stop one hopping about a motorhome could be amusing methinks. Makes a change from having a dog I suppose.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Dave225 - 2013-10-31 3:38 PM

 

Whatever floats your boat, as they say..

 

..or this instance, maybe it should be "Whatever tugs your Toad!"... (lol)

 

So am I right in thinking that these new rulings are not actually aimed at finally clarifying the A -Frame "grey areas" then?... they're just revised trailer regs that are catching A frames(their braking systems) because of the "they become trailers when hooked up" malarkey..? :-S

[peacock312]

Hi, I was in Belgium campsite in April,I offered to help Carthaga A class Brit back his 4wheel trailer & car onto pitch, I noticed his tow bar was flexing up & down a lot on one side,on inspection we discovered that his chassis member was cracked through, only about one inch was left unbroken,I think this was a case of too much weight/stress on the rear end of his van. Thankfully we discovered it as he had no idea,thankfully it didn't collapse on the motorway,following this thread it confirms my long held belief that many car/trailer set ups I see are seriously overloading certain parts of the link up,also I often see large motorbikes making the back end of the van sag, obviously overloaded & probably illegal &unsafe, Are we asking too much!! Dave

[Derek Uzzell]

pepe63 - 2013-10-31 4:22 PM

 

Dave225 - 2013-10-31 3:38 PM

 

Whatever floats your boat, as they say..

 

..or this instance, maybe it should be "Whatever tugs your Toad!"... (lol)

 

So am I right in thinking that these new rulings are not actually aimed at finally clarifying the A -Frame "grey areas" then?... they're just revised trailer regs that are catching A frames(their braking systems) because of the "they become trailers when hooked up" malarkey..? :-S

 

Yes, your thinking is right - the military call it "collateral damage".

 

It will be interesting to see what effect, if any, the braking-related legislation change has on A-frames sold/used outside the UK. The argument for legal usage in non-UK countries seems to be predicated on the contention that A-framing is legal in the UK so must be legal everywhere else in the EU. If the rules regarding legality change within the UK (and that will happen regarding inertia-braked A-frames) presumably the rules elsewhere will need to change too.

[mildi]

peacock312 - 2013-10-31 4:31 PM

 

Hi, I was in Belgium campsite in April,I offered to help Carthaga A class Brit back his 4wheel trailer & car onto pitch, I noticed his tow bar was flexing up & down a lot on one side,on inspection we discovered that his chassis member was cracked through, only about one inch was left unbroken,I think this was a case of too much weight/stress on the rear end of his van. Thankfully we discovered it as he had no idea,thankfully it didn't collapse on the motorway,following this thread it confirms my long held belief that many car/trailer set ups I see are seriously overloading certain parts of the link up,also I often see large motorbikes making the back end of the van sag, obviously overloaded & probably illegal &unsafe, Are we asking too much!! Dave

 

I was told by a trailer dealer and who also was a motor homer never to tow a twin axel trailer with a large CB as any undulation in the road where the rear of the MH may go up or down will result in the entire weight of the trailer plus car being put on the towball which will damage the chassis / extensions where as a single axel will pivot. I have since seen a MH CB towing a twin axel trailer down the M27 with his chassis extensions flapping up and down,

[colin]

mildi - 2013-10-31 10:11 PM

 

peacock312 - 2013-10-31 4:31 PM

 

Hi, I was in Belgium campsite in April,I offered to help Carthaga A class Brit back his 4wheel trailer & car onto pitch, I noticed his tow bar was flexing up & down a lot on one side,on inspection we discovered that his chassis member was cracked through, only about one inch was left unbroken,I think this was a case of too much weight/stress on the rear end of his van. Thankfully we discovered it as he had no idea,thankfully it didn't collapse on the motorway,following this thread it confirms my long held belief that many car/trailer set ups I see are seriously overloading certain parts of the link up,also I often see large motorbikes making the back end of the van sag, obviously overloaded & probably illegal &unsafe, Are we asking too much!! Dave

 

I was told by a trailer dealer and who also was a motor homer never to tow a twin axel trailer with a large CB as any undulation in the road where the rear of the MH may go up or down will result in the entire weight of the trailer plus car being put on the towball which will damage the chassis / extensions where as a single axel will pivot. I have since seen a MH CB towing a twin axel trailer down the M27 with his chassis extensions flapping up and down,

 

A bit of an exaggeration, but it is true the loading will increase.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-10-30 8:44 AM.............As I understand it (and according to advice on the National Trailer & Towing Association's website), a consequence of this transformation is that the car's Max. Gross Weight (as shown on the vehicle's VIN-plate) now counts as the maximum 'trailer weight'. I don't know which year/version of Yaris Ray owns, but, as the Max.Gross Weight of all current Yaris models is over 1400kg, I suspect his Yaris's Max. Gross Weight exceeds 1040kg.

I've been digging somewhat, and cannot find support for the NTTA interpretation of the relevant weight of an A-frame towed car. If the car legally becomes a trailer, as is argued, then, for the purposes of Gross Train Weight, it will be the actual laden weight of the car that applies.

The legislation I have been able to find, in respect of GTW, refers (though not always in these words) to the actual laden weight of the towing vehicle plus the actual laden weight of the trailer. The proviso is that neither towing vehicle, nor trailer, shall be loaded in excess of their respective plated limits. This seems equally true where a towing limit is stated in lieu of, or in addition to, GTW.

 

The NTTA seems to accept that it is the laden weight of a trailer that is critical where the towed vehicle is a trailer as constructed by their members/affiliates, so I think either someone has got his facts a little crossed, or they are keen to ensure all would be towers of cars tow them on trailers. No comment! :-)

 

They also make some very forthright comments regarding the legality of towing on an A-frame without quoting their legal sources. This contrasts oddly with the widely published view extressed by the Department for Transport that to their knowledge the legal position has not been tried, and should be considered a "grey area". Again, no comment! :-)

 

None of this will help Ray (sorry Ray) as it seems AT's statement that the the towing limit is derived from the CoC is fairly full and final. As I understand Certificates of Conformity they can only be varied if the whole approval process is repeated. I should imagine this would be extremely costly, and it would be far cheaper to change either the car or the van instead. The problem, I think, is that AT have constructed their Savannahs on the standard Fiat chassis, which they are (presumably with Fiat's full agreement) plating up beyond its standard limit. This means the van is likely to be operating permanently beyond its normal "safe" limits, so is eroding its factors of safety. Under the circumstances, someone, I assume in Fiat, has said that operating in that way is acceptable, but the GTW must be curtailed to compensate.

 

However, as I have said before, that long rear overhang, and the way it looks to me liable to impose (I think) largely incalculable (too many variants) stresses on the front of the car, would make me think twice about A-framing with that van. On billiard table surfaces, fine. But on UK roads? Anyone have a billiard table smooth road near where they live? If you do, stay near home, or be prepared for a bit of a surprise when elsewhere! :-)

 

Since it seems it will not be possible to bring a car and trailer in below the Savannah towing limit, it looks to me to be the Savannah that would have to be changed, or to drop the idea of towing a car. By using public transport from carefully selected sites it should be possible to get to most places, and it would make travel, with the restrictions on manoeuvrability that are imposed by cars on trailers, or especially A-frames, a lot easier. At least, that is my conclusion. I'm not expecting Ray to agree, though! :-)

[Rayjsj]

Brian, No, of course not . The Chassis that Autotrail have used for the Savannah/Dakota/Cherokee/Mohawk/Delaware and Scout is The Fiat Maxi, (16" Wheels) which as a chassis cab has a GTW of 6500kgs, the total lengths range from 7.5 metres upto 7.9 metres All GTW's are 5290 and ALL have a maximum braked towed weight at 1040 kgs. The Vans with Alko chassis's (the 6 wheelers) at 8.73 metres , ONLY have a braked towed limit of 1000kgs !!! (I have seen plenty of these towing large twin axle trailers with various loads, including cars on them). But of course that doesn't make it Legal. The smaller Navajo with a GTW of only 4900kg and on the 'Standard' chassis (with 15" wheels) has a more 'usable' Braked towing limit of 1250kgs. ?? Bit of a 'Minefield' isn't it. Still think that the A-Frame is the way to go, I have contacted SvTech, but doubt that they will be able to do anything against a COC that says 'max braked towing weight' 1040kgs. Ray

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2013-11-01 9:16 PM............... The Vans with Alko chassis's (the 6 wheelers) at 8.73 metres , ONLY have a braked towed limit of 1000kgs !!! (I have seen plenty of these towing large twin axle trailers with various loads, including cars on them). But of course that doesn't make it Legal. ...........................Ray

Well, I didn't expect agreement! :-D Re the above, it doesn't follow that they are illegal, either. If you refer back to Derek's post above, he mentions the caveat in the catalogue that in these cases the trailer weight can be increased beyond the stated limit - providing the full MAM of the van isn't being used.

 

That was what I was hoping might be legally possible with your van. In the absence of that towing limit, you could legally have transfered the difference between the van's actual laden weight and its plated MAM to the trailer, subject to the MAM of the trailer, and the GTW (or the trailer limit) not being exceeded.

 

With so low a trailer limit, that wheeze won't fly! You can't get a car light enough (except possibly an Aixam :-() to sit on a trailer and not exceed the trailer limit, so it's an A-frame, or the bus! As I said above, I still think that long overhang liable to cause eventual problems with the car. However, if you keep a sharp eye on it, and your towing mileages aren't that great, I guess it should be OK for a few years. In truth, as you say, you don't really have much alternative choice. Shame.