Lughead Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 The electrical power system (230V and 12V) on my 2003 Pilote consists of what looks like a consumer unit with a few RCBs with a large transformer next to it. The transformer has become noisy once it warms up. The transformer is riveted closed. I checked with the agent and to get the transformer I would need to buy the whole system at £600 (plus VAT presumably) just for parts. Couple options as I see it - 1. Drill out the rivets and see if there is anything inside the transformer that can be tightened/glued. But transformer buzz is usually the laminations as I understand it, so unlikely. 2. I've been looking at the likes of this .......... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ref-236-Volta-Intelligent-3-Stage-18-amp-Leisure-Battery-Charger-By-Plug-In/190917809225?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D18152%26meid%3D2309145598585066695%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D8338%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D190917809225%26 ........... and as I understand it by connecting this across my leisure battery, and disconnecting the transformer, then whenever on 230v hookup my leisure battery will be on charge continuously, and my 12v will just run off the battery. A bit like always being unhooked but the battery is being charged. This seem s like the best option but I wanted to check if there is anything I need to be aware of. One thing that troubles me is that the transformer outputs 12v AC and rectification and regulation takes place on a PCB inside the "consumer unit". Once I've removed the transformer will I need to disconnect that PCB, or anything else? Wiring Diag. http://s207.photobucket.com/user/nutbox/media/van_zps46810cb4.jpg.html Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Yes you would basically diconnect the transormer and the circuit board connections. You would lose the ability to also charge the engine battery. The repacement power supply would be connected to the mains coming in after the circuit breaker and the battery. However I would fit an RCB if you do not already have one. However, you can of course drill out the rivets which you will be doing anyway, and take the transformer out. You could check the details on it and probably find a replacement, or you could dip it in varnish and let it soak in, or brush and flood varnish over it to soak into all the laminations and the coils. You can buy electrical insulating varnish for this but you could just use a high quaity polyurathane varnish as all the coils will have insulating varnish on anyway. At the same time yiou could fit a over temperature switch if there is not one. A thermal trip such as used in micro wave ovens or tumble driers and connect n series with the input making sure any wiring is well insulated to make electrically safe.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Just realised there is a bit more to this, The pcb also includes the slave relays for disconnecting the leisure battery form the alternator. You would have to wire in a new slave relay circuit if you replaced the unit with a new switch mode power supply. Also need t work out this Centrale Scheiber unit and how it is all wired up. Yiu would most liely need to start from scratch rewiring everthing or at leat altering the wiring. Too late an night to figure it al out - will take another look tomorrow. Have you any clear part/model numbers for various units fitted and manufactures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 First port of call I would take would be Jon's recommendation of re-varnishing the transformer, as Jon says a polyurethane varnish will do the job, if you heat the varnish first it will go very thin and penitrate better, heat it up in a pot, do not go above it's flash point, then just dunk the transformer in for a couple minutes then let it drain and dry out overnight. You could buy a transformer of similar spec and mount it in an enclosure next to the charger disconnect the existing one and wire the new one in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Getting my head around this now. If fitting a new stick mode charger, I think you jus need to do as you said and connect to battery and diconnect the transformer. The PCB shudl still power up along with the display panel (controle Scheiber) staying functional. What I needs to be done though is a circuit diagram found, or teh circuit board traced to see what if anything needs to be done to make sure all is OK. SOme mods may be required. There is another way, which is to replace the transformer with the correct voltage switch mode power supply. It possibly would be cheaper than a charger unit and suspect a 16 volt switch mode supply would work by just connecting to teh 12 volt transformwer inputs to teh PCB. Again needs to be checked out. Sorry I really am thinking aloud here, but a switch mode supply only would be a neat solution if it will work. However its not such a good idea of the existing PCB is not a three stage charger. A replacement transformer same as fitted may not be very expensive if it is a standard transformer and one is found from surplus stock with a supplier. So all in all a lot more info is required...actually I have not done a search yet with the information known so far..maybe I should. A few photos of the set up are also very useful. Non just serving to help provide more infor for recognising bits, it helps make the topic (and thread) much more interesting. At end of the day of plastering the transformer with varnish works, then the why upgrade further, but do check you have an RCB fitted for safety and fit one if not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Are you sure you cannot obtain just the the transformer? Scheiber still exists http://www.scheiber.com/ and still makes transformers. For example http://www.leader-loisirs.com/transformateur-redresse-p-3849.html (I have an early-2000s Pilote Owner's handbook that contains the wiring diagram lughead provided. It has a couple of pages relating to the Scheiber control-panels (Part Numbers36.24100.00 or 36.09466.10) then being fitted by Pilote. The pages show front and rear details of the panels, but there's nothing really useful regarding electrical functionality.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lughead Posted October 29, 2013 Author Share Posted October 29, 2013 Thanks guys, some very helpful advice. I have taken the transformer out. I'll take a few photos of the control unit and such and post them tomorrow. As being said repair of the transformer would be favourite so I think I will go down that route and see if that works rather than get into modifying the wiring just yet. First thing I did was to go to Scheiber but they just pointed me towards Pilote after sales. My control panel is the 36.09466.10 I think and the "consumer unit" as I call it is a 30.65150.47 Thanks again. I'll let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I think a Scheiber Part Number that starts with "30." indicates a charger-unit. You might try this firm for Scheiber-related repair advice http://leisureelectronicrepairs.co.uk/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Take a look at Radio Spares site they do a load of different transformers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 gocro - 2013-10-29 4:05 PM Take a look at Radio Spares site they do a load of different transformers. Gosh! you are giving away your age, not heard them (RS Components) called that for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Brambles - 2013-10-29 4:37 PM gocro - 2013-10-29 4:05 PM Take a look at Radio Spares site they do a load of different transformers. Gosh! you are giving away your age, not heard them (RS Components) called that for a very long time. Beat me to it, at least 30 years. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Hi Lughead! the transformer on our van failed due to condensation dripping onto it! and we had it replaced, leaving the rest of the panel functioning (PMS 3H), and had a Amperor charger fitted, labour and materials £206; which we have been very happy with. I'd like a more sophisticated control unit, but can't justify changing at this moment, regards alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southender Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I have one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOTORHOME-CBE-BATTERY-CHARGER-CB-516-230V-50HZ-16A-/181235430960?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item2a32793630 They are silent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lughead Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Got the transformer out .......... http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/nutbox/DSCN4230_zps9e659069.jpg http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/nutbox/DSCN4235_zps445bc285.jpg ......................... and drilled out the rivets .................... http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/nutbox/DSCN4236_zps3f1b7e5f.jpg It strikes me that before going to the trouble of dipping it in varnish it might be easier to just replace it. Is anyone able to tell from these photos what I would be looking for. The bottom coil is clearly the primary (230V) and the top coil the secondary 2x12VAC but beyond that I am a bit lost. RS Components couldn't help. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Hi, Can you measure the physical size of it please so I can confirm the VA (power rating). Also the pictures of the mountng holes in frame/covers. However having asked for this I think I know what might just be the problem. See how the covers have been pop riveted to the core. I assume they do not go right through. Tut tut, so laminations have seperated only relying on the side welding. The rivet has spread the laminations. Try drilling out the rivets and reasembling with screws and nuts and may effect a cure. I shall have a seach for transformers. such as ... http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/chassis-mounting-transformers/0504082/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Can you also post a pic of equipment label. trying to work out the darn power rating of this unit, could be anything from 150 to 275 VA as far as I can tell without spending too much time in it. Easier just to ask you rather than having to second guess and search far and wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lughead Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Thanks for your help with this Brambles. Photo of the system cover. 15A so 15x12=180VA ????? or is that multiplied by 2 because its 2x12 ????? http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/nutbox/DSCN4243_zps51af2b7d.jpg The transformer hangs from holes at the back of the covers. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/nutbox/DSCN4235_zps4056a97b.jpg So not only are the rivets forcing the laminations apart but the transformer's own considerable weight is on those side welds as well. I can tweek the top lamination with my nail and it moves away from the others slightly. I had already thought it would be an idea to reassemble it using bolts. Like you say it might be worth doing this before going to any more trouble. I'll try this at the week end. Dia of coils is 85mm Primary is 24mm high and secondary 22mm. Lamination block is 108x90x49mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Lughead - 2013-10-30 5:06 PM Thanks for your help with this Brambles. Photo of the system cover. 15A so 15x12=180VA ????? or is that multiplied by 2 because its 2x12 ????? http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/nutbox/DSCN4243_zps51af2b7d.jpg The transformer hangs from holes at the back of the covers. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/nutbox/DSCN4235_zps4056a97b.jpg So not only are the rivets forcing the laminations apart but the transformer's own considerable weight is on those side welds as well. I can tweek the top lamination with my nail and it moves away from the others slightly. I had already thought it would be an idea to reassemble it using bolts. Like you say it might be worth doing this before going to any more trouble. I'll try this at the week end. Dia of coils is 85mm Primary is 24mm high and secondary 22mm. Lamination block is 108x90x49mm Ta for the info. Re VA rating, the VA rating has to be greater than the watts of the load so greater than 180VA. the peak current also has to be checked for each of the secondary windings as well. Its actually a bit motre complicated. Something you do need to do is check the continuity of both secondar windings. It has just struck me, if one of the putputs had failed, it could be on teh transformer or it could be on teh PCB then only one coil woul be supplying the power. It probably is capable of doing so for small loads in effect giving you half wave rectificaton instead of full wace restficaton. THis coudl be what is making the transformer noisy. Can you take a picture of the PCB please. I am not sure how you are going to manage to check this easily at the moment. It needs to be along the lines of supplying volts from a battery connected to one 12 volt ac input of PCB and check you get volts out the other end. Then connect battery to other 12 V ac input and check the output voltage again. Or a multimeter which can check diodes. ( or a scope) Be a shame to replace the transformer and then find fault in on the PCB and just needs a new cheap diode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 You indicate NOISY transformer. A simple cause may be the board its mounted on resonating with the frequency of the windings, particularly if the space behind the board is hollow like a box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 This would be the closest equivalent from RS components . Not a perfect mechanical match and so covers cannot be transferred across easily. I am also sure something much cheaper can be found. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/chassis-mounting-transformers/0503950/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lughead Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 I think the problem is mechanical as it gets worse as it warms up. The noise is definitely coming from the transformer cos I put a screwdriver on it and then stuck my ear on it. I'm going to clamp it all back together at the weekend and see where it goes from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lughead Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 I think the problem is mechanical as it gets worse as it warms up. The noise is definitely coming from the transformer cos I put a screwdriver on it and then stuck my ear on it. I'm going to clamp it all back together at the weekend and see where it goes from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Transformers generally 'ring' when the clamping force on the lamination's is reduced or the core 'bobbin' rattles about the core. so i would see if the transformer would fit in a vice and put a bit of pressure on the rivets to apply a bit more clamping force (gradually to see at what point the 'ringing stops). or if it is the bobbin epoxy resin might cure this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lughead Posted November 3, 2013 Author Share Posted November 3, 2013 UPDATE: Drilled out all the rivets and used bolts to put the whole thing back together. Reconnected it back in the van and noise was reduced by about 1/2. Sounds like just one lamination is buzzing now. Next I'm going to dip it in Electrical Varnish. I'll let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 And put a piece of spongy matting under it so its separated from what it sits on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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