Tea Cup Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 My previous van was a torque auto, and with that I found after a time that I could encourage it to change up or down with a little throttle control and anticipation. This technique just developed. I am not suggesting lack of experience, Brian, merely that it is a different technique which you soon adapt to. I have driven quite a few auto hire cars, either torque or Tiptronic, and found them to be very good, but I imagine that the higher vehicle weight of a MH would create more issues. (Mind you, I remember a Buick Le Sabre which must have equaled the weight of some vans. I managed to get it sideways on Ocean Drive, but that's another story). I am surprised that there are not that many auto vans available, since there are so many with disabilities, I'd be quite happy to have an auto next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Dave225 - 2013-11-14 8:11 PM ...It is interesting that Mercedes have remained loyal to the torque converter system, or true auto box if you wish, but have engineered that to get almost the same output as the manual. I note the latest models have a 7 speed gearbox so having the right ratio should no longer be an issue... You've overlooked the "Sprintshift" transmission fitted to the Mercedes Sprinter between (I think) the years 2000-2006. This was a robotised manual-gearbox and got a lot of stick from motorhome journalists regarding slow and (apparently) illogical gear-changing. It also gained a reputation in the commercial-vehicle sphere for unreliability. Mercedes replaced it in the Sprinter with a 'traditional' automatic transmission with torque-converter. There are indications that the robotised manual-gearbox approach may prove to be a technological dead-end, with an eventual return being made to automatic transmissions with a torque-converter, but with several more ratios than was the norm historically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Brian, please, just chuck all your technical knowhow out the window and adjust to what you have, life is very simple, just do it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Will85 - 2013-11-20 12:36 PM Brian, please, just chuck all your technical knowhow out the window and adjust to what you have, life is very simple, just do it ! Prior to reading this thread I was under the impression that owning a motorhome was about going on holiday and relaxing. But clearly there are those who get in their van and worry about whether a gear changes at a particular point and get worked up with such things instead of getting on with their holiday. Gawd knows what else they worry about before arriving at their destination. As far as I'm concerned the Comfortmatic changes gear automatically and does its job by providing the most relaxing of drives. I stick the thing in auto when I leave home and it stays there until I arrive in Spain with absolutely no issues or problems. Now, because of this thread, am I supposed now to take more notice of when the gear changes, and bother myself with other related issues, instead of getting on with my holiday? Of course not but clearly others do. To the people that want a gearbox that works well, all I can say is that the Comfortmatic is a brilliant gearbox that does what it says on the tin. Of course those who worry, if not bothered about gear changes, will find something else to concern themselves with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Not sure what to make about the above posts....Brian has just bought his new Hymer and decided that the Comfortmatic box would enhance his experience. I, for one, would be thinking that town driving, certainly, would be made a little easier by a cog swapper. However, for Brian, the overall experience has not come up to his expectations. He, i'll wager, has higher expectations than some on here and clearly enjoys driving in itself, as do I. Telling him to get over himself will not do him any good at all. He is a technical type of guy (yes, Brian?) and wants this piece of technology to give him something more than he had before, especially for a couple of grand! If the box reacts in a totally different way to how he would when presented with a particular driving scenario, faith in that gizmo will evaporate, eventually turning that driving pleasure into something less rewarding. Imagine sitting in the passenger seat, picturing what you would do as you approach the next bend or hill and the driver then does something completely different. This will eventually grate. I sympathise with Brian and hope he can 'learn the technique' of getting the best from the Comfortmatic. It is very possible, that the difference in torque/rpm figures between the 150 and the 160/180 bhp motors causes the box to react in a slightly different way. Of course there are also many drivers out there (and on this forum possibly) who haven't got a clue what gears are for and how to use the engine/gearbox to enhance the driving experience. An auto box for some can cover a multitude of sins.... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Mike88 - 2013-11-20 12:00 PM Will85 - 2013-11-20 12:36 PM Brian, please, just chuck all your technical knowhow out the window and adjust to what you have, life is very simple, just do it ! Prior to reading this thread I was under the impression that owning a motorhome was about going on holiday and relaxing. But clearly there are those who get in their van and worry about whether a gear changes at a particular point and get worked up with such things instead of getting on with their holiday. Gawd knows what else they worry about before arriving at their destination. As far as I'm concerned the Comfortmatic changes gear automatically and does its job by providing the most relaxing of drives. I stick the thing in auto when I leave home and it stays there until I arrive in Spain with absolutely no issues or problems. Now, because of this thread, am I supposed now to take more notice of when the gear changes, and bother myself with other related issues, instead of getting on with my holiday? Of course not but clearly others do. To the people that want a gearbox that works well, all I can say is that the Comfortmatic is a brilliant gearbox that does what it says on the tin. Of course those who worry, if not bothered about gear changes, will find something else to concern themselves with. Ah! but you have the more powerful 3 litre? I wouldn't touch an auto with a bargepole..absolutely no need. Just more expense andsomething else to go wrong.... van spends most of its life cruising in 6th on cruise control, even climbs most hills without needing interference from me. German La strada review said the following, enough info for me to know I would not enjoy the experience... I actually quite enjoy "driving" and if it cant climb or descend in a practical manner without intervention whats the point! "The test car fired the 148 hp engine in combination with the automatic transmission. A comfortable drive unit, even if the Automatic Comfort swallows when accelerating a little bit of temperament of the agile engine. Especially when starting on steep grades, the possibility of manual intervention that prevents the automatic switch helpless between first and second gear switches back and forth is recommended" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I really thought Eddie would prefer an automatic in London, I used to drive there a lot and suffered elbow and shoulder pains. I'm all for simplicity and for me that's what the automatic system provides. I don't care what variation of gearbox or who's idea it is, the ease of journeying is most of importance. In the past I've failed courses through trying to understand the practical techniques of the subject, I now accept that when someone designs something they've done their best at that time so I adjust and I'm pretty damn good at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Will85 - 2013-11-20 1:46 PM ....... I now accept that when someone designs something they've done their best at that time so I adjust and I'm pretty damn good at that. ......like a politician's manifesto, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Will85 - 2013-11-20 1:46 PM I really thought Eddie would prefer an automatic in London, I used to drive there a lot and suffered elbow and shoulder pains. I'm all for simplicity and for me that's what the automatic system provides. I don't care what variation of gearbox or who's idea it is, the ease of journeying is most of importance. I have no infirmity.....Hardly drive the camper that much in London, but have on two occasions today..... if autos were that efficient and useful they would be on every delivery van *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebeaches Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 An interesting and informative thread, so thanks to Brian for starting it. And thanks also to the other contributors too. We love the layout of our 3-year old van, but it has a manual gearbox. I would dearly like to have an automatic (or semi-automatic as fitted to the Fiat). BUT, the layout of our van is somewhat unique and unfortunately, no longer available to buy new. So at the moment I'm undecided whether to stick with what we've got, because everything else about it is good. Or, give up the genuine 'quart-into-a-pint-pot' design we have now in a sub-6 metre van and go for something else new with an auto gearbox. Or, have an electronic clutch fitted to our current van. Decisions, decisions... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Many very large commercial fleet operators now specify fully automatic gearboxes for their HGV's. One of the first to appear was the Merc with the EPS (Electronic Power Shift). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 A while ago we looked at modern Rapido's but didn't like the interiors as they were filled with designer furniture and although not out to buy another we decided that our older one was better internally. On the opposite tack we went to an event where there was a very much older M/H the same size outside but the inside was massive. So I would suggest being very careful of having a 'great new van' only to find later that it was disappointing. We are practical people and decorative embellishments 'R Not Us'. PS Regarding vans with automatic gear change, I blame the British Empire. So many are so besotted with things past. I see no future in waggling a stick about and stomping a pedal in order to make progress, it cannot be right. I wonder what euroserve would prefer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 Please don't start a quarrel on my behalf, boys and girls! :-) I originally posted for two reasons. First, to relay my experience with what I had expected to be a reasonably competent transmission. Second, to see if anyone else with a similar engine/transmission combination had similar, or differing, experiences. My approach to the PR director (who appears to have left, and not yet been replaced), was passed to customer services, who have now given it a case number, and referred me to a local dealership. I assume this is either because they think the transmission may not be performing as it should, or else because they think I'm not using it correctly. That, I shall learn when I take the van to the dealer. I'm not knocking the box, as I still don't know if the characteristics I experience are typical, or due to a fault. However, I am cautioning prospective buyers that it may not be as good as they may expect. Something to try before buying - if possible on a hilly route. I am not knocking those who have the box, and are happy with it. I'm pleased you are happy, and that your boxes do what you want of them. However, I remain disappointed with mine, and that it doesn't do what I want of it. Yes, I am being critical, and analytical, of its performance. Why would I not be - it is me, not you, who paid for it? As I said, I have no previous direct, driving, experience of automatics, but I do have quite a bit of experience of automatics as a passenger, and have noted that they generally change gear "on demand", quickly and smoothly. Sussex is hilly, I have a bus pass, and the local buses are automatics. They are also heavier than our van. They scud up and down the local hills with ease. Of course they don't anticipate hills, how could they? However, when they hit a hill, they just drop down a gear more or less instantly, and do so again as necessary. That is what I expected of the ComfortMatic, and it is exactly that which ours doesn't do. If it did, I should be very satisfied. It is (only mildly :-)) comforting to know that it is possible to "....stick the thing in auto when I leave home and it stays there until I arrive in Spain with absolutely no issues or problems." However, might that be on autoroutes, I wonder? Is the van a 150hp, or a 180hp? Might toodling down to Spain in a 180 on autoroutes give a different driving experience to climbing the N106 (Ales - Florac) onto the Cevennes, or taking the D164 from Montbrun-les-Bains to Bedoin? In short, should I rely on your experience as a reliable guide to what I should expect from my van? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Will85 - 2013-11-20 4:01 PM So I would suggest being very careful of having a 'great new van' only to find later that it was disappointing. So many are so besotted with things past. I see no future in waggling a stick about and stomping a pedal in order to make progress, it cannot be right. Will, you appear to be warning off people from being bedazzled with 'new' stuff yet also telling them not to remain besotted with things past........ Brian has plumped for a 'great new product' only to be disappointed......yet, he appears not to be able to grumble about it as he's obviously been bedazzled by new stuff. I think he has a fair point, he doesnt like the way it works and has said so. I dont think i would like an auto box to 'drive' in the way he describes, but that's just me....and Brian :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-11-20 5:37 PM It is (only mildly :-)) comforting to know that it is possible to "....stick the thing in auto when I leave home and it stays there until I arrive in Spain with absolutely no issues or problems." However, might that be on autoroutes, I wonder? Is the van a 150hp, or a 180hp? Might toodling down to Spain in a 180 on autoroutes give a different driving experience to climbing the N106 (Ales - Florac) onto the Cevennes, or taking the D164 from Montbrun-les-Bains to Bedoin? In short, should I rely on your experience as a reliable guide to what I should expect from my van? Brian as you have quoted from my earlier post I can inform you that I drive on all kinds of roads and here in Devon I have a lot of experience of driving on hilly and bendy terrain. Even on Autoroutes you get hills such as the free road from Clemont Ferrand down to the Med via Millau over the Massif Central. If a road is free I use it but avoid tolls like the Plague. As soon as my vehicle hits a hill it changes down and I have never to my recollection experienced being in the "wrong" gear. I have a 160bhp but I would be surprised if that is very much different from your 150bhp model even though I have a 3.0 litre engine against your 2.3. Of course you may have a problem with your gearbox electrics but somehow I doubt it. The point I was trying to make was that the gearbox should not be condemned because one person doesn't like it and that your experience should not necessarily put prospective purchasers off. Good luck with your visit to the dealer but I can't help feeling that Fiat are merely kicking the can down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-11-20 4:37 PM climbing the N106 (Ales - Florac) onto the Cevennes, Now that really is a great drive. (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Mike88 - 2013-11-20 5:22 PM ....As soon as my vehicle hits a hill it changes down and I have never to my recollection experienced being in the "wrong" gear. Well, if that is the case, it would appear that your autobox/engine package is providing a different experience than the one in Brian's van...and surely,that's the point of this thread...? If Brian's was behaving like yours, then he probably wouldn't have started the thread in the first place. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 Mike88 - 2013-11-20 5:22 PM...........Brian as you have quoted from my earlier post I can inform you that I drive on all kinds of roads and here in Devon I have a lot of experience of driving on hilly and bendy terrain. Even on Autoroutes you get hills such as the free road from Clemont Ferrand down to the Med via Millau over the Massif Central. If a road is free I use it but avoid tolls like the Plague. As soon as my vehicle hits a hill it changes down and I have never to my recollection experienced being in the "wrong" gear. I have a 160bhp but I would be surprised if that is very much different from your 150bhp model even though I have a 3.0 litre engine against your 2.3. Of course you may have a problem with your gearbox electrics but somehow I doubt it. The point I was trying to make was that the gearbox should not be condemned because one person doesn't like it and that your experience should not necessarily put prospective purchasers off..................... Mike, thanks for the clarification, but I've only just clocked that yours is a PVC, so shorter, lighter, and narrower than ours. I think we are comparing apples with pears. Your engine is the 3.0JTD E4 160hp, developing 400NM @1700rpm. Ours is a 2.3JTD E5 150hp, developing 350NM @1500rpm. So we have fewer horses, less torque (albeit at lower revs) and a heavier van. But, I'm still a little puzzled by your responses. You say above "As soon as my vehicle hits a hill it changes down and I have never to my recollection experienced being in the "wrong" gear." You go on to say "The point I was trying to make was that the gearbox should not be condemned because one person doesn't like it and that your experience should not necessarily put prospective purchasers off." I just wonder if you have read my original post, in which I described how the gearbox responds under certain conditions? If not please do, and then ask, does what I describe chime with your "I have never to my recollection experienced being in the "wrong" gear"? I have to say that from your accounts of the way your box works, and mine of the way my box works, we seem to be describing different boxes. Now, whether that is all due to me being overly critical, I somehow doubt. Whether it is in fact due to the differences in weight and power, particularly torque, between the two vehicles, I would have to say - logically, at least to some extent. As to "the gearbox should not be condemned because one person doesn't like it" I'm at a loss! First I have not "condemned" it, and second, does all that I have said merely amount to "I don't like it"? I thought I had been a bit more rational, selective, and explanatory than that? Beyond all of which, I simply don't "get" your actual point. You appear to be saying little more than "please don't criticise what you have, because I have someting similar, and I'm happy" What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Will85 - 2013-11-20 4:01 PM PS Regarding vans with automatic gear change, I blame the British Empire. So many are so besotted with things past. I see no future in waggling a stick about and stomping a pedal in order to make progress, it cannot be right. I wonder what euroserve would prefer Hmm, Since you asked.... My first instinct would be to say that I wish that ALL of my vans had comfort-matic gearboxes. The benefits for me would be far greater than an easy drive for my customers; we would potentially reap the benefits of longer clutch life and less potential for driver abuse. If only the option was less expensive. Then I start to think about this a bit more..... What about the early 2.3 engines and gearboxes? How would comfort-matic have dealt with juddering in reverse? Would the early failures that we have had of clutches and slave cylinders have caused the computerised bit to throw it's toys out of the pram? I am not so sure now. The answer to the question of automated manuals V torque converter auto is quite simple; If fuel economy is important to you then the automated manual is the winner by a large margin. It is simply more efficient, cheaper to buy and weighs less. No matter how many (heavy) extra ratios are fitted, a torque converter wastes energy. It's a fact. The fact that Mercedes Benz gave up and went back to a traditional auto is purely a testimony to their failure to get it right in the first place. They also can't make an engine for Euro 6 without chemical additives. It is also true that automated manuals are standard fitment on most HGV's these days and have been for a number of years. They are not without faults but are not all bad and once again the benefits of extended clutch life and driver comfort are traded against the minor niggles and breakdowns when actuators and servos cannot exist harmoniously. It's actually very difficult to buy a manual 7.5 tonner now. Some makers (including Merc and MAN) could not achieve Euro 4 emissions without automated boxes! A conclusion? If everything is engineered well and the component parts of the vehicle can be relied upon to perform properly and reliably, an automated gearbox is nirvana as far as I am concerned. The automated gearbox is clearly the future and it is here to stay. I drive two cars; one is a bit sporty and is a manual, the other is an SUV and is an auto (a proper one). This is how it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-11-20 5:28 PM Brian Kirby - 2013-11-20 4:37 PM climbing the N106 (Ales - Florac) onto the Cevennes, Now that really is a great drive. (lol) (lol) Sure is, even with a schizophrenic gearbox! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-11-20 6:32 PM What am I missing? About 700cc? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer1942 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Evening all does anyone know if the RENAULT auto box is any better or worse than the fiat one. Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 euroserv - 2013-11-20 6:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2013-11-20 6:32 PM What am I missing? About 700cc? :D Every little helps! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I would suggest that Fiat might need to consider reprogramming the auto box, I wonder if it has the same programming as the 3.0l, I've driven a slushbox that also struggled with hills, this was a Dodge Ram RV with a 'measly' 5.0l engine, I soon learnt to knock it down a gear early else it would gradualy drop down gears until ending up in first, then it was able to accelerate under kickdown. (this was in the rockies) my conclusion was the engine/transmission was just to small for the body that had been put on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Schizophrenic gearbox, brilliant description Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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