150hp Fiat Comfortmatic

[Chausson le mor]

Den - 2013-11-21 10:15 PM

 

It's great to see I'm not on my own and stating that the Renault quick shift 6 is No 1.

No problems, changes when it should every time.

Been using renaults for several years and cover 250,000 in 3 years normally. No replacement clutch's, no gear box problem and run at max weight all the time.

One should not have to compromise after spending any amount of money, but spending MH mega bucks is unbelievable that fiat supply vehicles with...

FAULTY GEAR BOX's

WATER INGRESS INTO ENGINE COMPARTMENT.

AND NOW A ROBOT GEAR BOX, THAT DOESNT DO WHAT IT SAYS ON THE BOX.

I'm not saying fiat are rubbish, but I'm surprised that so many have issues with the most widely used MH chassis.

You must ask yourselves why Renault , merc and ford rule the commercial market.

I did run a fiat for 2 years and got bitten for signing on the dotted line.

Den says it all Renault could run rings round Fiat not only for the comments above no water ingress into engine compartment etc but also add on my conversion 3 years warranty (from 2012 its 4 years)! full breakdown cover for that period, free servicing for 4 years! You WONT get any of that from Fiat!!

Plus if you look at list price the Renault Quickshift is nearly 50% of the add on price that FIAT charge!

Its a shame more vehicles both PVC and coachbuilt are not on the Renault vehicle it must be purely down to an initial cost?

PS in our part of the world nearly 90% of ambulances are RENAULT!

[colin]

Brian Kirby - 2013-11-21 11:23 PM

 

Hawcara - 2013-11-21 8:21 PM................It would be interesting to know whether part of the emission compliance in Euro 5 engines means that there must be less torque or whatever and that this can have a 'negative' effect when coupled with an auto box....................I will be interested to read of any updates to Brian's Hymer :-D

On the face if it, Alex, no. If you look above at Nick's chart of HP vs torque figures for the various generations of Fiat engines, you will see that both HP and torque gain on the E5 engines, compared to the E4 equivalents that preceded them.

 

But it's interesting his experience of driving an e4 120 and e5 130 would seem to contradict the figures, my own experience of the e4 120 is don't drop below 2000rpm on hills

[colin]

Chausson le mor - 2013-11-22 9:03 AM

 

Den - 2013-11-21 10:15 PM

 

It's great to see I'm not on my own and stating that the Renault quick shift 6 is No 1.

No problems, changes when it should every time.

Been using renaults for several years and cover 250,000 in 3 years normally. No replacement clutch's, no gear box problem and run at max weight all the time.

One should not have to compromise after spending any amount of money, but spending MH mega bucks is unbelievable that fiat supply vehicles with...

FAULTY GEAR BOX's

WATER INGRESS INTO ENGINE COMPARTMENT.

AND NOW A ROBOT GEAR BOX, THAT DOESNT DO WHAT IT SAYS ON THE BOX.

I'm not saying fiat are rubbish, but I'm surprised that so many have issues with the most widely used MH chassis.

You must ask yourselves why Renault , merc and ford rule the commercial market.

I did run a fiat for 2 years and got bitten for signing on the dotted line.

Den says it all Renault could run rings round Fiat not only for the comments above no water ingress into engine compartment etc but also add on my conversion 3 years warranty (from 2012 its 4 years)! full breakdown cover for that period, free servicing for 4 years! You WONT get any of that from Fiat!!

Plus if you look at list price the Renault Quickshift is nearly 50% of the add on price that FIAT charge!

Its a shame more vehicles both PVC and coachbuilt are not on the Renault vehicle it must be purely down to an initial cost?

PS in our part of the world nearly 90% of ambulances are RENAULT!

 

Here we go the misinformation again.

The last model Renault had a known weakness with the gearbox.

Don't know if the latest one has the same problem.

[Alan D]

I not sure which model is being referred to but my 2007 Renault auto has never given any problems.

I concur with Den and Chausson.

The auto option ,I believe, was only£900 with a choice of engines, even the 120bhp pulls like a train.

I am in the Renault camp as I am not of the Fiat "persuasion" It`s just a personal choice that I have never had any cause to regret.

I am lucky to live close by to 2 very large dealerships and some smaller ones, so being very green to motorhomes I test drove the lot until I found the one that suited me.

I am looking to downsize now and the only other auto that has impressed me is the VW DSG 7 speed.

Unfortunately these come on very small vehicles and the VW have reported drive shaft problems, so my choice would be limited to another Renault.

All these vehicles cost a shed load of money now and buyers should not have to put up with any problems at these prices..

Alan.

[Chausson le mor]

colin - 2013-11-22 9:09 AM

 

Chausson le mor - 2013-11-22 9:03 AM

 

Den - 2013-11-21 10:15 PM

 

It's great to see I'm not on my own and stating that the Renault quick shift 6 is No 1.

No problems, changes when it should every time.

Been using renaults for several years and cover 250,000 in 3 years normally. No replacement clutch's, no gear box problem and run at max weight all the time.

One should not have to compromise after spending any amount of money, but spending MH mega bucks is unbelievable that fiat supply vehicles with...

FAULTY GEAR BOX's

WATER INGRESS INTO ENGINE COMPARTMENT.

AND NOW A ROBOT GEAR BOX, THAT DOESNT DO WHAT IT SAYS ON THE BOX.

I'm not saying fiat are rubbish, but I'm surprised that so many have issues with the most widely used MH chassis.

You must ask yourselves why Renault , merc and ford rule the commercial market.

I did run a fiat for 2 years and got bitten for signing on the dotted line.

Den says it all Renault could run rings round Fiat not only for the comments above no water ingress into engine compartment etc but also add on my conversion 3 years warranty (from 2012 its 4 years)! full breakdown cover for that period, free servicing for 4 years! You WONT get any of that from Fiat!!

Plus if you look at list price the Renault Quickshift is nearly 50% of the add on price that FIAT charge!

Its a shame more vehicles both PVC and coachbuilt are not on the Renault vehicle it must be purely down to an initial cost?

PS in our part of the world nearly 90% of ambulances are RENAULT!

 

Here we go the misinformation again.

The last model Renault had a known weakness with the gearbox.

You pay your money and take your choice my experience is based on the latest Renault Master 3 version produced from May 2010. My experience on 2 years of ownership is the box is superb in fact better than the one fitted to our Peugeot 308 e-hdi!

Added to the benefits are NO cam belt to change the latest Renault Euro 5 engine in 2300cc form have a chain driven cam which is stated as lasting the lifetime of the vehicle! No expensive cambelt replacements!

If a known weakness exists it must be well hidden or are Renault keeping their fingers crossed with offering a 4 year warranty on commercial vehicles!

As stated earlier you pays your money and take your choice!

Don't know if the latest one has the same problem.

[Guest JudgeMental]

unbelievable...do you work for renault by any chance. Its a real narrow odd shaped van and a poor base vehicle for a panel van conversion IMO *-)

[colin]

Chausson le mor - 2013-11-22 10:27 AM

 

colin - 2013-11-22 9:09 AM

 

Chausson le mor - 2013-11-22 9:03 AM

 

Den - 2013-11-21 10:15 PM

 

It's great to see I'm not on my own and stating that the Renault quick shift 6 is No 1.

No problems, changes when it should every time.

Been using renaults for several years and cover 250,000 in 3 years normally. No replacement clutch's, no gear box problem and run at max weight all the time.

One should not have to compromise after spending any amount of money, but spending MH mega bucks is unbelievable that fiat supply vehicles with...

FAULTY GEAR BOX's

WATER INGRESS INTO ENGINE COMPARTMENT.

AND NOW A ROBOT GEAR BOX, THAT DOESNT DO WHAT IT SAYS ON THE BOX.

I'm not saying fiat are rubbish, but I'm surprised that so many have issues with the most widely used MH chassis.

You must ask yourselves why Renault , merc and ford rule the commercial market.

I did run a fiat for 2 years and got bitten for signing on the dotted line.

Den says it all Renault could run rings round Fiat not only for the comments above no water ingress into engine compartment etc but also add on my conversion 3 years warranty (from 2012 its 4 years)! full breakdown cover for that period, free servicing for 4 years! You WONT get any of that from Fiat!!

Plus if you look at list price the Renault Quickshift is nearly 50% of the add on price that FIAT charge!

Its a shame more vehicles both PVC and coachbuilt are not on the Renault vehicle it must be purely down to an initial cost?

PS in our part of the world nearly 90% of ambulances are RENAULT!

 

Here we go the misinformation again.

The last model Renault had a known weakness with the gearbox.

You pay your money and take your choice my experience is based on the latest Renault Master 3 version produced from May 2010. My experience on 2 years of ownership is the box is superb in fact better than the one fitted to our Peugeot 308 e-hdi!

Added to the benefits are NO cam belt to change the latest Renault Euro 5 engine in 2300cc form have a chain driven cam which is stated as lasting the lifetime of the vehicle! No expensive cambelt replacements!

If a known weakness exists it must be well hidden or are Renault keeping their fingers crossed with offering a 4 year warranty on commercial vehicles!

As stated earlier you pays your money and take your choice!

Don't know if the latest one has the same problem.

 

Have you had the defective rear axle fixed?

[Alan D]

Opinions on the best make have been discussed many times before. If you have a good one that has given you absolutely no problems, then that's the one for you

.

If someone like Brian, with his vast knowledge and experience, can buy a van he is a bit disappointed with then it`s "Caveat Emptor " for the rest of us.

Alan.

[Chausson le mor]

JudgeMental - 2013-11-22 10:42 AM

 

unbelievable...do you work for renault by any chance. Its a real narrow odd shaped van and a poor base vehicle for a panel van conversion IMO *-)

 

No but have had 35 years in a service industry and have experience of a lot of commercial garages and their service agents.

I have owned 3 motorhomes one a Fiat coachbuilt which turned out to be a disaster!

next was a Peugeot Boxer PVC and my current van a Renault master 3. the new Renault is not odd shaped and not in my opinion a poor base vehicle but then we all have choices!

Given what is out there I personally would not go back to any sevel built vehicle.

This thread was all about the pros and cons of comfortmatic I was merely offering my opinion of the Renault alternative offering!

have a nice day!

[colin]

Chausson le mor - 2013-11-22 11:56 AM

 

This thread was all about the pros and cons of comfortmatic I was merely offering my opinion of the Renault alternative offering!

have a nice day!

 

I agree in my experience(on lightly loaded vans) the comfortmatic is good, so I don't see why Fiat can't reprogramme the auto box if found wanting on a MH.

[Brian Kirby]

colin - 2013-11-22 9:05 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2013-11-21 11:23 PM

 

Hawcara - 2013-11-21 8:21 PM................It would be interesting to know whether part of the emission compliance in Euro 5 engines means that there must be less torque or whatever and that this can have a 'negative' effect when coupled with an auto box....................I will be interested to read of any updates to Brian's Hymer :-D

On the face if it, Alex, no. If you look above at Nick's chart of HP vs torque figures for the various generations of Fiat engines, you will see that both HP and torque gain on the E5 engines, compared to the E4 equivalents that preceded them.

 

But it's interesting his experience of driving an e4 120 and e5 130 would seem to contradict the figures, my own experience of the e4 120 is don't drop below 2000rpm on hills

True, but in my auto e5 150 it tries to climb all hills at 1,500rpm - in whatever gear! :-(

[Guest JudgeMental]

but aren't you supposed to kick down, or switch to manual with these.....

[Brian Kirby]

Alan D - 2013-11-22 11:44 AM

 

Opinions on the best make have been discussed many times before. If you have a good one that has given you absolutely no problems, then that's the one for you

.

If someone like Brian, with his vast knowledge and experience, can buy a van he is a bit disappointed with then it`s "Caveat Emptor " for the rest of us.

Alan.

Woah, there!!! :-) You are very kind (I think :-S), but that "vast knowledge and experience" has only been gained since 2005, on two vans (the present one being our third), and a lot of reading - much of it on here! Compared to quite a few, I am still in the kindergarten when it comes to knowledge and experience. What I know, I am more than happy to pass on, but I am still very much learning as I go. As in life, some lessons are more agreeable than others!

[Brian Kirby]

Chausson le mor - 2013-11-22 11:56 AM

 

JudgeMental - 2013-11-22 10:42 AM

 

unbelievable...do you work for renault by any chance. Its a real narrow odd shaped van and a poor base vehicle for a panel van conversion IMO *-)

 

No but have had 35 years in a service industry and have experience of a lot of commercial garages and their service agents.

I have owned 3 motorhomes one a Fiat coachbuilt which turned out to be a disaster!

next was a Peugeot Boxer PVC and my current van a Renault master 3. the new Renault is not odd shaped and not in my opinion a poor base vehicle but then we all have choices!

Given what is out there I personally would not go back to any sevel built vehicle.

This thread was all about the pros and cons of comfortmatic I was merely offering my opinion of the Renault alternative offering!

have a nice day!

Which is fine, but the offerings on the Master are, unless I am very much mistaken, even less than on the Transit. If what is on offer, Master based, suits one, it is good news, but for the great majority the van will be Fiat based, because it is what the converters choose to convert, so is what the nearest dealer to most of us will stock.

[euroserv]

Just to refresh a few memories....

 

Your expectations of quality have to be calculated rather differently with a motor caravan to what you would expect from a car.

 

Let's say your new motor-home costs £50,000;

 

The converter would have paid something between £10,000 and £15,000 for the base vehicle. I think that compared to cars, you are getting a pretty good machine for the money. You can't possibly expect it to be be better built and more luxuriously appointed than a similarly priced car. It is however, fit for purpose and can be adapted to do whatever it is you need it to do.

 

The remaining £35,000 or so is for the conversion. I would expect a great deal of quality for that much money.

 

If you had spent £50,000 on a car, 4x4 or MPV you would have a right to expect the entire vehicle to be of a superlative standard. There is an imbalance that is not of your making but is certainly something that you need to remember. If you want a better chassis, they may be available and may cost another £10,000 but they will also have their faults. Now you are looking at £60,000 for the whole package and your expectations would justifiably have been raised again.....

[bolero boy]

euroserv - 2013-11-22 2:01 PM

 

Just to refresh a few memories....

 

Your expectations of quality have to be calculated rather differently with a motor caravan to what you would expect from a car.

 

Let's say your new motor-home costs £50,000;

 

The converter would have paid something between £10,000 and £15,000 for the base vehicle. I think that compared to cars, you are getting a pretty good machine for the money. You can't possibly expect it to be be better built and more luxuriously appointed than a similarly priced car. It is however, fit for purpose and can be adapted to do whatever it is you need it to do.

 

The remaining £35,000 or so is for the conversion. I would expect a great deal of quality for that much money.

 

If you had spent £50,000 on a car, 4x4 or MPV you would have a right to expect the entire vehicle to be of a superlative standard. There is an imbalance that is not of your making but is certainly something that you need to remember. If you want a better chassis, they may be available and may cost another £10,000 but they will also have their faults. Now you are looking at £60,000 for the whole package and your expectations would justifiably have been raised again.....

....which is where Brian is (and more!) with the Exsis-i.

[lennyhb]

bolero boy - 2013-11-22 2:45 PM

 

euroserv - 2013-11-22 2:01 PM

 

Just to refresh a few memories....

 

Your expectations of quality have to be calculated rather differently with a motor caravan to what you would expect from a car.

 

Let's say your new motor-home costs £50,000;

 

The converter would have paid something between £10,000 and £15,000 for the base vehicle. I think that compared to cars, you are getting a pretty good machine for the money. You can't possibly expect it to be be better built and more luxuriously appointed than a similarly priced car. It is however, fit for purpose and can be adapted to do whatever it is you need it to do.

 

The remaining £35,000 or so is for the conversion. I would expect a great deal of quality for that much money.

 

If you had spent £50,000 on a car, 4x4 or MPV you would have a right to expect the entire vehicle to be of a superlative standard. There is an imbalance that is not of your making but is certainly something that you need to remember. If you want a better chassis, they may be available and may cost another £10,000 but they will also have their faults. Now you are looking at £60,000 for the whole package and your expectations would justifiably have been raised again.....

....which is where Brian is (and more!) with the Exsis-i.

 

But it is still at the cheaper end of the market, buy a Hymer B Class SL at around a 100k still on the same base vehicle, go for an upmarket Liner from Carthago, Concorde etc. will cost you around 200k and will have Iveco underpinnings which is still a basic commercial truck.

What a lot of people want in a perfect base vehicle does not exist and if it did they would not be prepared to pay for it. For what it does the Fiat is a pretty good compromise.

 

I've ordered the 150 Comfortmatic as Brian says not really possible to get a test drive under real conditions and if does half of what I expect of it I'll be happy in the overall picture the cost is not that much.

[bolero boy]

Brian Kirby - 2013-11-22 12:46 PM

 

colin - 2013-11-22 9:05 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2013-11-21 11:23 PM

 

Hawcara - 2013-11-21 8:21 PM................It would be interesting to know whether part of the emission compliance in Euro 5 engines means that there must be less torque or whatever and that this can have a 'negative' effect when coupled with an auto box....................I will be interested to read of any updates to Brian's Hymer :-D

On the face if it, Alex, no. If you look above at Nick's chart of HP vs torque figures for the various generations of Fiat engines, you will see that both HP and torque gain on the E5 engines, compared to the E4 equivalents that preceded them.

 

But it's interesting his experience of driving an e4 120 and e5 130 would seem to contradict the figures, my own experience of the e4 120 is don't drop below 2000rpm on hills

True, but in my auto e5 150 it tries to climb all hills at 1,500rpm - in whatever gear! :-(

 

 

.....looking at these figures.....

130 Multijet2 Iveco F1AE6481D 2,287 cc DOHC 16v Common rail direct fuel injection 130 PS (96 kW; 130 hp) @ 3,600 rpm 320 N·m (240 lb·ft) @ 1,800 rpm

150 Multijet2 Iveco F1AE3481E 2,287 cc DOHC 16v Common rail direct fuel injection 148 PS (109 kW; 146 hp) @ 3,600 rpm 350 N·m (260 lb·ft) @ 1,500 rpm

.....it seems that, in reprogramming the 130 into the 150 (and to produce its extra 30NM of torque) the engine speed at which it is produced is significantly lower, 1500 rpm against 1800 rpm.

When driving with a manual box, you might be encouraged to change up a bit earlier (and down for a hill a bit later?) in the 150 but, if it appears to be short of 'poke' you will change your style back to something nearer how the 130 drives.

With the Comfortmatic, (assuming its programmed as for the 3ltr with 400MN torque at 1400 rpm) it will assume changes which suit a vehicle with significantly less torque. Up changes made at 1500 rpm may well be smooth as molasses in the 3ltr but may feel well of the cam in the 150. Similarly, if the programming says (when hill climbing) hold onto this gear untill you drop to 1500 then this engine speed (or just under) may not have the power or torque to continue the climb, hence Brians comment about suddenly having to drop more than one gear. Starting to sound that there is a mismatch between the engines power/torque and the Comfortmatic programming? Not the box but the set up, perhaps. Of that were the case tho, i dont see how Fiat would have a remedy as this would surely have been fitted at the outset?

 

[euroserv]

Chris,

 

That is pretty much it really except that the vehicle has been much more than 'programmed' in this case. The entire fuel and exhaust system has changed while moving up to Euro 5. It has altered the character of the engine significantly as I have seen between the E4 120hp and E5 130hp which should be about the same but are not at all.

The jump to 130hp from 120hp on E4 (for motorcaravans) was achieved by a change to the way the EGR was cooled and some 'chipping'.

The E5 150hp has a variable rate turbocharger over the 130hp E5 and while this will provide more torque for the lovers of statistics, and apparently does so at lower revs; in the real world the transitions between rates of turbo may make for small peaks and troughs which the programming of the gearbox would seem to be making the most of!

I am reaching the conclusion that this has not been thoroughly thought through by the designers and that they have bolted on a 'one size fits all' software solution. It is possible that the non variable nature of the 130hp E5 engine with a bit of after market chipping might make a better companion for the comfort-matic.

 

Don't shoot me; I am only an engineer.

[bolero boy]

Nick, no chance of that ;-)

Always good to hear from the trade, especially engineers.

[Will86]

40 years ago after talking to an Italian with a faulty Fiat I decided never to buy any vehicle with a Fiat badge. I still see no reason to change my views. Perhaps its the very name that I find difficult, add a letter or two and remove one and for me it changes the whole industry.

[Brian Kirby]

bolero boy - 2013-11-22 2:45 PM.......................which is where Brian is (and more!) with the Exsis-i.

Not entirely! :-) I'm not gypping about the whole package, or about the whole of the Fiat part of the package, or even about the whole of the gearbox part of Fiat's part of the package. I'm only gypping about specific aspects of the way the gearbox handles specific driving conditions. Or at least, I hoped I had been specific but, reading some of the responses, it seems I may have fallen somewhat short! :-)

 

Overall, I'm very pleased with the van. The Hymer bits have a few faults as well, two of which surprise me, considering they originate from so experienced a converter, but overall it is what we wanted, and pretty much what we expected. I can fix the Hymer sillies, so I'm not that concerned about them. I don't consider the Exsis to be any worse value for money than any other van, it is a fair price for what it is, having regard to the general price of motorhomes. If I look "under the skin", at least I can see why it is a bit more expenesive that some of the others.

 

So, all I'm reacting to is the way the box responds to some specified driving conditions. In other ways, as I have said, it is very clever, but under the circumstances I have described, at present, it is just plain dumb! What I now have to find out is whether it is as good as it will get, or whether it is dumb because some vital sensor is not telling the TCU the right story. My impression, from what I have read elsewhere, is that two of my three main gripes may be characteristics of the box when coupled to the 150 HP engine. If that proves the case then, unless Fiat issues a software upgrade to allow the box to become more responsive, I shall have to come to terms with the fact that what I have bought is no more than a semi-automatic, necessitating driver intervention when the going gets demanding.

 

That will be disappointing and, in view the box being publicised as a fully functional automatic, annoying - but it won't prevent me from enjoying the van, or enjoying driving it. It will just mean I need to use my brain, instead of Fiat's, to direct the gearbox as to what gears to select for maybe 30% of the time. My only question, therefore, is whether, knowing what I now know about the 150 auto option, I would have paid extra for the auto bit. My current answer for the 150 bit is emphatically yes, but for the auto bit no. If it transpires that there is a fault, and it is transformative when remedied, that answer will probably change.

[Brock]

Nick [Euroserv] said, "It is possible that the non variable nature of the 130hp E5 engine with a bit of after market chipping might make a better companion for the comfort-matic."

 

I'd be interested what you had in mind Nick. I'm happy with my E5 130 Comfort-matic for the way I drive in the UK but within reasonable costs, I'd certainly think about improving performance, especially fuel consumption.

 

[Will86]

I've never been a believer in any authority or vehicle maker, and having just bought a new Bilbo Nexa T5 campervan with cruise control and a whatever you call it automatic, I find it drives different to all the others I've had, for better or worse I don't know, I go faster in it that's for sure as its easier and quieter.

 

I accept whatever makes it go is fine with me and I adjust according to the way it wants to be driven.

 

Within the first 10 miles I made many errors because the gearing was different (whatever that was!) but that's all forgotten now at over 900 miles.

 

I simply drive by what I see and feel. PS and 'hear' perhaps the most important.

 

I become as one with the whole unit adjusting to what it will and will not do when I ask it, that surely is the key to a pleasant day out.

[bolero boy]

Brian, i was only commenting on nicks statement below

 

Now you are looking at £60,000 for the whole package and your expectations would justifiably have been raised again.....

 

To which i commented that you were 'in' for £60k and more, so your expectations would be raised as described, and, as it happens, slightly lowered.

 

Thanks for the comments re the rest of the Exsis, you know i am interested here and possibly the Exsis-t version. Also interested to hear Fiats response to the case tou have raised with them, good luck.