Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Well for the most part according to this months CC mag, gob smacked to see them saying, " there is no legal definition for a leisure battery, they also add for many a cheap starter battery is all many folk need.................confused, well you bet your life I am.......................cue the "experts" ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Nothing exactly shocking there, I don't know of any legal definition of a leisure battery, but then I'm no expert. As for most only needing a cheap starter battery, well maybe their correct, after all if your a CC member and only go to club sites with EHU why would you need anything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 When we were tuggers only used cheap batteries as most of the time used EHU, with the Motorhome will only use a good quality leisure battery as they are our only source of electrical power as we never use EHU's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-22 9:48 PM Well for the most part according to this months CC mag, gob smacked to see them saying, " there is no legal definition for a leisure battery, they also add for many a cheap starter battery is all many folk need.................confused, well you bet your life I am.......................cue the "experts" ;-) The battery-related piece in the December 2013 Caravan Club Magazine (Page 86) is full-page. It refers back to an article in the November issue of the Magazine and offers answers to the following five questions: Why were the names of the poorly-performing batteries not identified? Are the low-performing batteries useless, then? Why can't manufacturers of deceptively-marketed batteries be taken to court? Was the testing credible? Why can't more batteries be tested? Is the The Club/the caravan industry going to do more about this issue? The answers are fairly long and detailed, so, if there are 'experts' on this forum who wish to respond to your posting, I suggest they read the CC Magazine article(s) first. Me, I can't for the life of me understand why you should be either "gob smacked" or "confused" by the December article, as it contains nothing particularly surprising or novel. (Perhaps you should re-read it more carefully and slowly?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-22 9:48 PM a cheap starter battery is all many folk need. I've been saying exactly that for years and have suffered a few put downs by 'experts' for my view - which remains unchanged! I'll go further and say that for many people a decent secondhand battery from a commercial vehicle breaker will do very well thank you. However if you do a lot of off grid camping and don't charge the battery for a few days at a time a couple of good quality, but expensive, leisure batteries should serve you well and possibly bring peace of mind? You pays yer money and takes yer pick - just don't expect a cheap leisure battery to last unless you are very very lucky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Yes, that's what the CC Magazine article says... (Idle curiosity, but have you read it?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-11-23 9:41 AM Yes, that's what the CC Magazine article says... (Idle curiosity, but have you read it?) No Derek - not been members since the CC imposed and charged for ehu whether we want it or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-11-23 9:04 AM 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-22 9:48 PM Well for the most part according to this months CC mag, gob smacked to see them saying, " there is no legal definition for a leisure battery, they also add for many a cheap starter battery is all many folk need.................confused, well you bet your life I am.......................cue the "experts" ;-) The battery-related piece in the December 2013 Caravan Club Magazine (Page 86) is full-page. It refers back to an article in the November issue of the Magazine and offers answers to the following five questions: Why were the names of the poorly-performing batteries not identified? Are the low-performing batteries useless, then? Why can't manufacturers of deceptively-marketed batteries be taken to court? Was the testing credible? Why can't more batteries be tested? Is the The Club/the caravan industry going to do more about this issue? The answers are fairly long and detailed, so, if there are 'experts' on this forum who wish to respond to your posting, I suggest they read the CC Magazine article(s) first. Me, I can't for the life of me understand why you should be either "gob smacked" or "confused" by the December article, as it contains nothing particularly surprising or novel. (Perhaps you should re-read it more carefully and slowly?) I have read it carefully and slowly thanks....................in effect it seems we are being duped.................and what's the point of your unnecessary sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 I just renew the engine battery every couple of years and recycle it as the leisure battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Peter James - 2013-11-23 10:42 AM I just renew the engine battery every couple of years and recycle it as the leisure battery I like that idea!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 There have been numerous articles on "leisure" batteries, and lengthy discussions on here, about the whys and wherefores of various kinds of batteries. I can understand someone new to motorhoming or caravanning being surprised at the CC article's findings, but less so someone who is a long term forum member and motorcaravenner. This string might be more helpful to newcomers if it contains a summary of the main points of the articles, and what to look for when buying. Very simply stated, as I understand it, leisure batteries are designed to be discharged relatively gently, but deeply, over a long period of time, whereas starter batteries are designed to be discharged somewhat brutally, but not deeply, over short periods of time. To resist their slow, deep, discharges, leisure batteries need large, thick, lead plates. Starter batteries work adequately with smaller, but thinner, plates. If starter batteries are used as leisure batteries their thinner plates begin to buckle under the strain, and they self-destruct relatively quickly. Lead is expensive, so there is great incentive for dubious manufacturers to dress-up starter type technology as leisure type technology. Since the larger thicker plates of the leisure battery result in a battery that is larger than a starter battery of the same claimed capacity, it is not unusual to put small plates in a large case, so that it looks like the genuine article. Less sophisticated manufacturers merely change the label of a starter battery to imply that it is a leisure battery. So, the simple test is to assess the battery by weight. Lead is heavy, so if you find two apparently similar leisure batteries on offer, the rule of thumb says get the heavier one. The even simpler rule of thumb is to buy only a brand recognised for its quality, having first carefully read the label. Neither rule is entirely foolproof, as there are other deceptions regarding the rate of discharge on test, which allow manufacturers to claim a greater capacity, in Ah, because they have tested at a lower rate of discharge than the competition. However, even if you end up with a genuine leisure battery with somewhat exaggerated capacity, you will be better off over time than if you had got a starter battery dressed up as a leisure battery. A good leisure battery is unlikely ever to be the cheapest on offer. Specifically, Varta, Banner, and Exide, are cited in the November CC article as complying with EN 50342 for battery specificaton and testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clamper Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 I gave up on so called leisure batteries years ago, they never seemed to last long. Switched to a heavy duty truck battery and have not had a problem for years. PLUS, I have twice been able to use it to jump-start the Mhome :-D . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-11-23 11:32 AM There have been numerous articles on "leisure" batteries, and lengthy discussions on here, about the whys and wherefores of various kinds of batteries. I can understand someone new to motorhoming or caravanning being surprised at the CC article's findings, but less so someone who is a long term forum member and motorcaravenner. This string might be more helpful to newcomers if it contains a summary of the main points of the articles, and what to look for when buying. Very simply stated, as I understand it, leisure batteries are designed to be discharged relatively gently, but deeply, over a long period of time, whereas starter batteries are designed to be discharged somewhat brutally, but not deeply, over short periods of time. To resist their slow, deep, discharges, leisure batteries need large, thick, lead plates. Starter batteries work adequately with smaller, but thinner, plates. If starter batteries are used as leisure batteries their thinner plates begin to buckle under the strain, and they self-destruct relatively quickly. Lead is expensive, so there is great incentive for dubious manufacturers to dress-up starter type technology as leisure type technology. Since the larger thicker plates of the leisure battery result in a battery that is larger than a starter battery of the same claimed capacity, it is not unusual to put small plates in a large case, so that it looks like the genuine article. Less sophisticated manufacturers merely change the label of a starter battery to imply that it is a leisure battery. So, the simple test is to assess the battery by weight. Lead is heavy, so if you find two apparently similar leisure batteries on offer, the rule of thumb says get the heavier one. The even simpler rule of thumb is to buy only a brand recognised for its quality, having first carefully read the label. Neither rule is entirely foolproof, as there are other deceptions regarding the rate of discharge on test, which allow manufacturers to claim a greater capacity, in Ah, because they have tested at a lower rate of discharge than the competition. However, even if you end up with a genuine leisure battery with somewhat exaggerated capacity, you will be better off over time than if you had got a starter battery dressed up as a leisure battery. A good leisure battery is unlikely ever to be the cheapest on offer. Specifically, Varta, Banner, and Exide, are cited in the November CC article as complying with EN 50342 for battery specificaton and testing. Having bought numerous brands of "leisure batteries" over the years, perhaps I'll invest in some bathroom scales to weigh the next ones. ;-) As for the article surely the CC could have ranked ALL the ones they tested, then at least they would have been doing a service to the "club" ( I use the term loosely ) members. Which magazine can manage that, why not the CC, despite their mealy mouthed explanation, that the performance may not have been typical................if that was the case why did they not apply the same criteria to the ones they said were OK, is that Bull manure I can smell. Your last point, quote, "a starter battery dressed up as a leisure battery" I'd be curious to know how you could determine that. (!) and a "brand recognised for it's quality " by whom exactly ? the CC club (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 'Service to members' and 'the caravan club' are not two phrases that sit well together!! A bit like 'Government' and 'intelligence'! Now, they were definite snipes!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-22 9:48 PM Well for the most part according to this months CC mag, gob smacked to see them saying, " there is no legal definition for a leisure battery, they also add for many a cheap starter battery is all many folk need.................confused, well you bet your life I am.......................cue the "experts" ;-) I wouldn't be too 'gobsmacked' by anything written in a magazine heavily reliant on commercial advertising which it most certainly isn't going to 'upset'!! Forget the "experts" who will relish the opportunity to baffle the naive with the most amazing scientific 'facts and figures' as though they are writing up some thesis. Stop looking at brand names (it's only a sticker for Gods sake!!) and simply buy the cheapest available with the longest warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 What the Battery industry needs is the equivalant of the 'EN 50342' or a BSI certiicate or the EU version, for Vehicle and Leisure Batteries, batteries with plates only capable of heavy fast discharge (vehicle) say EN 12345, and Heavier Plated (tested) slow discharge, long life (Leisure) Battery say 12355. Not difficult, then we could be SURE of what we are buying. It would pay the 'Trust worthy' manufacturers as at the moment, I will ONLY buy a Banner or a Varta. as they HAVE been tested. A loss of confidence can destroy a company Read (Elecsol). Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-23 2:10 PM....................Having bought numerous brands of "leisure batteries" over the years, perhaps I'll invest in some bathroom scales to weigh the next ones. ;-) Might be a good idea, if you can't gauge their weights by simply lifting them one after the other! As for the article surely the CC could have ranked ALL the ones they tested, then at least they would have been doing a service to the "club" ( I use the term loosely ) members. Which magazine can manage that, why not the CC, despite their mealy mouthed explanation, that the performance may not have been typical................if that was the case why did they not apply the same criteria to the ones they said were OK, is that Bull manure I can smell. I'm not going to leap to the defence of the club, but they have given the nod to three widely acknowledged brands. Varta and Banner supply many batteries to car makers and van converters, who generally do not fit rubbish. That is perhaps why the club, as non-experts, are happy to endorse their products. If you focus on those (or others that have been singled out as reliable on here from time to time), and then shop on price for those, you will be likely to get better value than by shopping on price alone. That seems to be the drift of the club's argument, and it seems a fair enough point to me. Your last point, quote, "a starter battery dressed up as a leisure battery" I'd be curious to know how you could determine that. (!) and a "brand recognised for it's quality " by whom exactly ? the CC club (!) I gave a simple, potted, rule of thumb, guide as to what, broadly, to look for. What more do you need? As to the quality brands, just do your research, on here and elsewhere, and see which brands consistently get the highest recommendations from those who really know their stuff. Then buy accordingly. The article you cite is by John Wickersham, who is not a CC "staffer". If you read the article carefully, as suggested above by Derek, you will see that Wickersham appears to have been one of the "witnesses" on behalf of the three UK clubs, and the "Caravan and Motorhome TV channels", of tests apparently carried out by, or more probably for, the National Caravan Council's Working Group. So, the CC neither carried out the tsets, nor "owns" the results data. I'd be more inclined to be thankful for what knowledge the article imparts, than critical of what it doesn't. After all, if one wants a good, new, battery, surely it is of greater value to be guided towards the good manufacturers, than to be given a list of bad ones, and then left to guess if the one that one is looking at is actually good, or merely a bad one that did't get listed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Sorry but your suggestion to weigh them is ridiculous, considering many stockists that I have been to more often than not have perhaps just two brands in stock, so perhaps the bathroom scales and a note pad and pencil is still a goer of an idea as we trudge round different stockists putting our backs out in the process. As for premium brands "Bosch" domestic appliances for example would be considered a premium brand, we've bought Beko and cannot get over the quality, but for very much less, so perhaps buying "premium" brands is not always what it's cracked up to be whatever the product. And guarantee's on Leisure batteries ( my last ones were three years ) both of my last ones purchased together, gave up the ghost well within that time scale with light usage, supplier said in effect "tough" despite them being recommended by others..................when I delved deeper into the guarantee there were more "get out" clauses than you can shake a stick at, what people need is clarity, that is sadly lacking in this sector AFAIC. and the CC article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Well, I was being a little sarky, in response to your usual sarcasm, re the scales. So, how about looking up the weights on the web? The decent battery stockists - those with more than two choices - tend to list the weights, so comparisons can be quite easy. It is you who is choosing to make life difficult, and then complaining it is difficult, by looking/buying from the wrong places. No-one, apart from you, has mentioned "premium" brands. I spoke of "brands that consistently get the highest recommendations from those who really know their stuff". A quite different concept. Battery guarantees are notorious. That, also, has been discussed at length on here. It is one reason, but not, IMO, the main reason, for buying the acknowledged better brands, preferably from an acknowledged good supplier. What you found is what has been said, several times. Just do your own research, thoroughly, and you'll be fine. Much better use of time than endlessly moaning away on here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-11-23 5:02 PM Well, I was being a little sarky, in response to your usual sarcasm, re the scales. So, how about looking up the weights on the web? The decent battery stockists - those with more than two choices - tend to list the weights, so comparisons can be quite easy. It is you who is choosing to make life difficult, and then complaining it is difficult, by looking/buying from the wrong places. No-one, apart from you, has mentioned "premium" brands. I spoke of "brands that consistently get the highest recommendations from those who really know their stuff". A quite different concept. Battery guarantees are notorious. That, also, has been discussed at length on here. It is one reason, but not, IMO, the main reason, for buying the acknowledged better brands, preferably from an acknowledged good supplier. What you found is what has been said, several times. Just do your own research, thoroughly, and you'll be fine. Much better use of time than endlessly moaning away on here! You seem to have all the answers ( as usual ) so what have you got on your van ? As for moaning away, sorry the CC test was informal and wonderful, that's what I should have said in the beginning eh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-23 5:21 PM You seem to have all the answers ( as usual ) so what have you got on your van ? If you ask nicely, I may even tell you! But seriously, do you really expect me to help you out after that remark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-11-23 5:27 PM 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-23 5:21 PM You seem to have all the answers ( as usual ) so what have you got on your van ? If you ask nicely, I may even tell you! But seriously, do you really expect me to help you out after that remark? No thanks, but if ever I'm in need of a boiler for the house with different water temps at each tap I'll ask you ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-23 4:24 PM And guarantee's on Leisure batteries ( my last ones were three years ) both of my last ones purchased together, gave up the ghost well within that time scale with light usage, supplier said in effect "tough" Brian Kirby - 2013-11-23 5:02 PM Battery guarantees are notorious. That, also, has been discussed at length on here. It is one reason, but not, IMO, the main reason, for buying the acknowledged better brands, preferably from an acknowledged good supplier. FWIW.......re Battery Guarantees. A few years back I had a Leisure battery i'd bought from a local supplier. The brand was insignificant enough for me to remember that it was just some 'joe soap' battery with a pretty sticker but cost 'the right money' and had a 3 year warranty. The Guarantee was the receipt. The battery eventually 'died' on me so I dug out the receipt.......only to find the 3 years had lapsed just one day previous. Great!! Nothing ventured nothing gained so I set off to the dealers, receipt in hand with duff battery. He tested it, looked at the receipt, shrugged his shoulders and just said "well we aren't going to argue about that" and promptly replaced it with a brand new one. Sometimes it's not so much about what you buy......but where you buy it from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-22 9:48 PM Well for the most part according to this months CC mag, gob smacked to see them saying, " there is no legal definition for a leisure battery, they also add for many a cheap starter battery is all many folk need.................confused, well you bet your life I am.......................cue the "experts" ;-) I bought my battery from a ship chandler and 10 years later when I sold the motorhome it was still working well it wasn't cheap and it weighed more than the original battery but I consider over 10 years to be good value. John (^) (^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retread24800 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 If you are new to this forum or have learning dis functionality then a quick look at the following three videos should help to demystify you. http://www.caravanchannel.co.uk/videos?vid=164http://www.motorhomechannel.co.uk/?cid=7&vid=118http://www.motorhomechannel.co.uk/?cid=7&vid=113 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.