Leisure batteries...a waste of money.

[lennyhb]

colin weston - 2013-11-26 5:24 PM

As a final point can anyone shed light on why, in the Autosleeper Trident Owner's Manual under electrical fault diagnosis it states that if the second (auxiliary) battery is not charging or holding charge the cause could be that the auxiliary battery amp hour rating is incompatible and the remedy is to use equal amp hour rating auxiliary battery. This implies that both batteries should have the same rating. Is there a technical reason for this?

 

If the leisure battery is located close to the starter battery that could be the reason, normally a leisure battery is located some distance away any relies on the volt drop across the cable feeding to ensure the starter battery takes priority when starting. This is more important if the split charge relay is powered by a live feed from the source that is switched by the ignition rather than being fed from the D terminal on the alternator.

If this is the case make the cable run longer to the leisure battery.

[Brian Kirby]

Is there any possibility that the starter and leisure batteries have been installed to work as a leisure pair in parallel, with the starter battery separating should its voltage drops below a safe level for engine starting?

 

What Auto-Sleepers seem to be saying, regarding fitting batteries of the same type/capacity, follows the common rule for installing twin habitation batteries. Same type and, broadly, the same capacity.

 

This ought not to apply where the batteries are functionally separated once the engine is stopped. I assume there must be a logical reason for the instruction.

 

Do I vaguely remember reading a criticism in a review of such an arrangement, in a van that its manufacturer had assumed would primarily be used on EHU?

[Corky 8]

When I asked the Question of the Difference between Leisure and Starter Batteries, many years ago, I was told Starter Batteries give a large Amperage in short bursts to turn the starter motor then the Engine, and recharge very quickly whereas "Leisure Batteries" are designed to give Modest amperage over a longer Period and deep cycle slow charge.  what,s the difference in the Manufacture,   Plates I was told Plates ?????????????.

having just bought a new Battery as a second Battery, I feel justified in Buying a leisure battery as over many years of using Car Batteries as the only available Batteries at one time were car batteries but I had many a let downs with them dying with use over long periods of time , the other anomaly is AMP hours, reading the top of the fitted Leisure Battery in my new to me M/H I misread the A/h as 75ah and ordered a varta 75 a/h from a firm called Batterymegastore on e bay, when I actually  took the original leisure battery out I found it was a 90a/h, luckily for me when I contacted Batterymegastore and told them of my error they gave me three alternatives,  I took the replacement delivered and the wrong battery collected with adjustment to price and collection fee, brilliant service, so now have two 90a/h Varta batteries fitted, all's working well I'm pleased to say. I'll be sticking with "Leisure Batteries ".

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Corky all batteries will die over a period of time as I'm sure you know, leaving them discharged will kill them even quicker ,and although it's not always made plain, many leisure batteries on the market are only good for around 150 charge cycles, there may be benefits to a leisure battery ( I use them myself ) but in four years I've had to buy two sets of two, and we don't hammer them either with inverters and the like ;-) but we rarely use mains hookup.

[Corky 8]

1footinthegrave - 2013-11-27 2:26 PMCorky all batteries will die over a period of time as I'm sure you know, leaving them discharged will kill them even quicker ,and although it's not always made plain, many leisure batteries on the market are only good for around 150 charge cycles, there may be benefits to a leisure battery ( I use them myself ) but in four years I've had to buy two sets of two, and we don't hammer them either with inverters and the like ;-) but we rarely use mains hookup.

Thank you yes I do realise batteries do have a expendable life span, my last set of Lucas Leisure Batteries are over 4 years old and still going strong, maybe down to the solar panel continuous input,  I did find with the Car batteries even a small wattage of a bulb in use would only last an evening or two before requiring a recharge, I never leave a battery discharged, before the Solar Panels , I have three trickle chargers, 2 used when I take the Leisure Batteries out for the winter, as you know frosty weather make batteries drop charge more quickly , I just leave the batteries on Trickle charge in the shed , and never had any Battery trouble since. I would like to see the official definition of Battery cycles, do they mean a full charge battery @13.5v to a discharge of what voltage, and if a charge is introduced before the given discharge voltage is the cycles extended /shortened, ?

[colin weston]

Thanks for your comments.

The second (leisure) battery sits next to the starter battery in the engine compartment. Looking at the wiring diagram, the feed to the split charge relay comes from the fusebox ignition connection on the VW T4, not from the alternator as on some other chassis used by Autosleeper. When plugged into the mains only the leisure battery is charged.

When I talked to the Service Dept at Autosleeper I was informed that a normal starter battery was always fitted to the VW T4 as a second battery.

In the manual it states: " The 12V DC electrical system is fed through the vehicle battery: a second battery may be fitted as an optional extra. In the case of a diesel engine this is 66amp/hr, for the petrol engine 45amp/hr. " It is interesting that this battery is always referred to as a second battery, never a leisure battery. Elsewhere the manual states: " When a second battery is fitted, a 30 amp fuse is fitted between the vehicle battery and the second battery in order to protect against overloading of the second battery charging system." When I mentioned to Autosleeper that I had found this fuse had blown he gave the opinion that it was because the second battery was probably in such a poor condition that the current was surging in an attempt to charge the battery.

Bearing in mind that the 12V appliances on the Trident are very limited, i.e. water pump (3 amp) and fluorescent lights (1.3 amp and 0.6 amp) the drain on the second battery is very small compared with a more modern van. My conclusion is that I should fit a second battery of the same or similar capacity as the starter battery as originally specified. The van is mainly used on a site with an EHU as my daughter wants a TV, laptop, etc. running off 240 V so the second battery should be kept in a fully charged state.

As a matter of interest I leave my Autocruise Starburst permanently connected to the mains at home and the system is designed to charge both the vehicle battery and the two leisure batteries. Now over 6 years old and keeping my fingers crossed. My car battery is some 7 years old and still going strong but I make a point of connecting it to a charger in the garage every few weeks during the winter. An automotive industry colleague of mine always said that the life of a battery depended on keeping it fully charged.

[Retread24800]

  Over here many on line retailers quote a discharge cycle based upon the German DIN series of standards, Experts will probably provide a B.S or EN but here is the life expectancy of a Mid range Slow discharge battery;-

300 cycles conformément à la norme DIN 43 539 partie 3 ( décharge à 80%)

600 cycles conformément à la norme DIN 40 757 (décharge à 50%)

1200 cycles conformément à la norme DIN 40 767 ( décharge à 20%)

 

So 1200 cycles  if the battery is used well within its capacity and only 300 if subject to heavy usage. seems reasonable to me............

 

[Brambles]

It is actually fairly easy to identify what type the leisure battery is you are buying.

 

If the specifications states a CCA over 600amps for an 80Ah ( CCA over about 800 for 100 Ah) then it is a starter battery. I'll give this a cycle life of 100 for comparison purposes using my criteria.

 

If the Specifications state a CCA of around 500amps for an 80AH ( CCA around 700 for 100Ah) then it is a dual Starter and cycle battery. Cycle life of around 150 to 200 for comparison using my criteria.

 

If the specifications show any CCA it is not a deep cycle semi traction as these will NOT have a CCA rating. A good Semi traction will give around 400 cycles for comparison.

 

If you see a battery called a liesure battery with a high CCA over 800 Amps then you might as well buy a starter battery if it is cheaper. Also do not believe the Ah rating figures given.

 

We have very limited choice now in the UK since Varta revamped their offerings a few years ago and the flooded leisure battery range is now dual purpose and a cycle life of around 150 to 200. They are basically starter batteries.

 

This leaves Banner Energy Bull range and Exide's new Multicraft batteries. The exide multicraft range covers starter, dual purpose and what they call equipment batteries. For Motorhomes the equipment batteries are best option for deep cycling. e.g ET650.

 

Now to really comfuse the issue some sellers will actually be selling a reasonable dual purpose but will quote the marine starting current or current at ambient temperatures rather than CCA ( cold cranking temperature. This pushes what was a 700 amp battery up to even a 1000Amps. Crazy, because now it looks like a starter and not a dual. Equally they will inflate the Capacity by using the C/100 discharge rate rather than the C/20 rate and some will down right lie and make it all up. ( well not them but the Asian exporter who does not care a jot as long as he gets an order for batteries)

Also teh cycle life will often be quoted as 300 or even 500 which is just misleading as is noty a 50% or 60% dod but more like 40% or less.

 

Comes back to what has been said already (Brian was it?!). If you want a battery as what I call a buffer or for coffee halts the you might as well buy budget and cheap. For the ocassional off hook up overnight then a dual purpose, and for the serious wild camper then you need a semi traction design so Banner or Exide Equipment batteries are better choice.

 

If you are a full timer or very heavy user then you may even want to go a stage further and look at AGM or Gel. AGM can work out better value than a Semi traction for a similar specification but if you are prepared to top up during its life or going to be holidaying in very hot climes then flooded with the ability to top up is best. ..again your semi traction models are best. Semi traction are never sealed and always have the ability to top up (screw caps normally).

 

Always vent a flooded battery through a tube to the outside world.

For those who cannot (don't want to) then Gel is the way to go, or indeed for those who want the ultimate battery.

 

However all battery types have their pros and cons. Also the more you invest in a battery the more you will lose should a fault murder the batteries, or is neglected and left discharged.

 

Sorry, I am now starting to say too much and will confuse so stopping here.

 

To Summarise, if a spec gives a CCA current then it is NOT a good deep cycle battery.

Go for Banner, or Exide's latest Multicraft equipment batteries such as ET350, or varta AGM or better if you want a decent battery, but also a lot of people don't really need anything more than a cheap battery. Some need even better that those mentioned. Everyone has different requirements and no such thing as this is the best battery or best value for all.

[Brambles]

Colin. I wil have a look at your inteesting issue tomorrow If I get a chance. Alternator spec, too high a charge current and so on.

[Brambles]

Re teh VW T4, the only reason I ca come up with for fitting a battery no bigger than the starter battery is the alternator is too small to charge a large liesure battery. I do not see any reason why a smaller leisure battrey could not be fitted such as a 50 Ah, but then most 50Ah are probably starter batteries anyway. Problem with a large starter type battery is when fairly flat is it can charge at a very high rate, certainly higher than its semi traction (leisure) counter part.

Your comments on plan to fit a small battery seem sensible. I am not really trying to address your issue, but just the general issue of someone wanted to fit higher capacity. Teh suggestion by someone to fitt longer cables to introduce resistance and reduce charge current is a good approach. Only down side is the time it takes to recharge but if a small alternator is used then their is a problem anyway. I believe a T4 alternator is about 65Amps, which is pretty small compared to a commercial van 150 or 180 Amp alternator.

[colin weston]

Jon,

Thanks for your comments. I think you are probably correct that the issue is related to the alternator output. I have not yet found alternator output data but will keep searching.

[JonMac46]

Personally, I think the only people qualified to comment on suitable batteries are those who successfully camp for days at a time without EHU.

[lennyhb]

JonMac46 - 2013-11-29 6:16 AM

 

Personally, I think the only people qualified to comment on suitable batteries are those who successfully camp for days at a time without EHU.

 

Not really unless you have used various batteries under different conditions. I do not use EHU's but I have only used one type and make of battery I haven't a clue how others perform and different vans have different power requirements. All I can say is I'm pleased with the performance of my Exide gel's but nothing to compare them with.

[paul_richardson]

Hi Guys,

 

Here is my two pennies worth.

 

I was told by an "old timer" that the best leisure battery HAS TO BE a deep cycle battery, such as the ones used in golf buggies.

 

Here is a Golf Buggy battery

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/T125/?ref=bmuk&gclid=CPzY9aKGjbsCFakKwwodrj0A4g

 

As you can see it weighs 30kg

 

Here is a Leisure Battery

 

http://www.batteries4leisure.co.uk/battery/Lucas-Sealed-Leisure-Battery-75Ah-LL22MF/46/?gclid=CPTmkLuGjbsCFfMctAodhDwAWQ

 

Which only weighs 17.5 kg.

 

I know what I'm to fit in my camper van when it is finished.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Paul

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Not sure how your electrics will perform with 6 volts though. :-S

[paul_richardson]

Whoops,

 

Well spotted, you could wire two together (in series).

 

Or buy a 12v version.

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/T1275/

 

Regards,

 

Paul

[Derek Uzzell]

paul_richardson - 2013-11-30 6:36 PM

 

Whoops,

 

Well spotted, you could wire two together (in series).

 

Or buy a 12v version.

 

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/T1275/

 

Regards,

 

Paul

 

I'm asking myself why one would choose to fit a Trojan battery intended for golf-buggies when the company markets a range of deep-cycle batteries designed for marine/RV applications.

 

Trojan has a good reputation but so does, say, Banner (whose "Energy Bull" batteries have performed well in independent tests and, on being dismantled, have proven to be well-built).

 

A comparison of 'genuine' deep-cycle leisure batteries, where the dimensions and claimed Ah outputs are similar, is unlikely to reveal a startling difference in their weights. However, if the comparison is made haphazardly, and the batteries are significantly dissimilar dimensionally or their rated capacities are expressed differently, a 'it's heavier so it's better' argument will carry little weight.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

'it's heavier so it's better' argument will carry little weight……mmmm, love it.

[Derek Uzzell]

1footinthegrave - 2013-12-01 9:32 AM

 

'it's heavier so it's better' argument will carry little weight……mmmm, love it.

 

Now you know who provides Sir Bruce Forsyth with his 'jokes'.