Fixings advice nedded

[Pete-B]

Hi,

I've got a 2012 Bessie E460 and plan to install a Fiamma sliding lock as a bit of extra security to the habitation door. I'm adviced not to compress the wall in any way and to avoid this use 10mm copper inserts in the holes cut 1mm over length as a prevention and put silicone around holes and under bolt heads to stop damp penetration, which all makes sense.

The only problem is, the bolts have a thread length of 35mm so if I pass them through the internal backing plate and through the external rubber gasket this leaves 32/32mm and Swift reckon the wall thickness is 32mm. So certainly not enough room for, perhaps, a spring washer or similar.

I guess it's no problem getting longer bolts but to buy an item which is specifically made for the job then having to bodge it up all seems odd.

I've had no experience doing this so am I missing the obvious.

.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Do some research..from memory they are prone to failure and unreliable. I'm talking about the external one to be honest. A link would help. Sorry but I think a waste of time, as if they want to get in, camper doors pretty flimsy anyway.

[Pete-B]

Sorry, it's a Thule lock and not Fiamma,

[Will86]

Like Eddie says if someone wants to break in nothing will stop them, the petty thief looks for easy unlocked doors. The answer is never let anything tempting be seen.

 

The fear of a break in is fear itself, and good for sales of anti theft equipment.

 

Buy a very heavy dog chain and collar and leave it exposed on a seat along with a tatty dog bowl with half eaten food, far better than all your locks!

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe Milenco-marketed locks are Thule-made and there are useful iinstallation video-clips here:

 

http://www.milenco.com/products/security-door-locks/door-locks/

 

If it transpires that that the standard bolts are too short to obtain a secure fixing, you should get longer ones. Don't try to get away with, say, omitting the interior backing plate.

 

Thule's own website

 

http://www.thule.com/en/gb/products/rv-accessories/security/locks/locks-for-motorhome-and-caravan-_-family_361665

 

has a .pdf file for the 'bolt-through' THULE DOOR LOCK product that shows the bolt length appropriate to minimum/maximum wall thicknesses.

 

Wall thickness 25mm-30mm - bolt length= 35mm

Wall thickness 30mm-35mm - bolt length= 40mm

Wall thickness 35mm-40mm - bolt length= 45mm

Wall thickness 40mm-45mm - bolt length= 50mm

 

I don't know if this means that the lock is marketed in versions with different bolt lengths; it's something it would be worth you checking.

 

(As mentioned in the Milenco videos, do make absolutely sure before buying this type of security product that there's sufficient room to install the parts that go inside the vehicle. You don't want to find out that you need to remove half the kitchen or the fridge to allow you to fit the interior backing plate or do up the bolts!)

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Hmm..but if they want to get in easier to knock pins out of hinges. or just jimy the whole door

[rudders]

Pete-B - 2013-11-28 9:47 AM

 

Hi,

I've got a 2012 Bessie E460 and plan to install a Fiamma sliding lock as a bit of extra security to the habitation door. I'm adviced not to compress the wall in any way and to avoid this use 10mm copper inserts in the holes cut 1mm over length as a prevention and put silicone around holes and under bolt heads to stop damp penetration, which all makes sense.

The only problem is, the bolts have a thread length of 35mm so if I pass them through the internal backing plate and through the external rubber gasket this leaves 32/32mm and Swift reckon the wall thickness is 32mm. So certainly not enough room for, perhaps, a spring washer or similar.

I guess it's no problem getting longer bolts but to buy an item which is specifically made for the job then having to bodge it up all seems odd.

I've had no experience doing this so am I missing the obvious.

 

Had one fitted on our E460 at the dealer,it was the shorter one that covered the lock,they charged about £20 labour and it was a worthwhile investment, so if you are unsure perhaps get a dealer to fit it.

.

[Brian Kirby]

Pete-B - 2013-11-28 9:47 AM.....................I'm adviced not to compress the wall in any way and to avoid this use 10mm copper inserts in the holes cut 1mm over length as a prevention ...............

DO NOT DO THIS!! I believe the side walls of your van are aluminium? If you use a copper spacer you will get a strong galvanic reaction that will result in the copper very quickly "eating" the surrounding aluminium. Don't be fooled by the thought that the inside of the wall is dry, it will gain atmospheric humidity as you use the van, and that will be sufficient.

 

But, whatever the side wall sheeting material, you should not need to use a spacer, as the lock fixing should go through the (presumed wooden) frame that surrounds the door opening. This, and other, frames are concealed within the wall sandwich. If you can't get the fixings through a framing member, don't fix the locks.

 

Away from these frames, motorhome walls basically have no strength, and are highly compressible, so attaching anti-theft devices (or pretty much anything else) to them is asking for trouble. Whether or not you insert a spacer, the result will be gaps between the lock and the outer wall sheet. Whether or not silicone is added, water ingress will eventually result.

 

If you can locate the frame and drill the lock fixings through that, then use stainless steel bolts only (whatever may have been supplied with the lock) and tighten the lock to a backing plate through the framing member. Otherwise, either use a lock that allows fixing through the frame, or leave well alone.

[globebuster]

Don't use silicone on exposed, bare aluminium either - it will eat it.

Anywhere where you expose the bare surface, and introduce another dissimilar metal - ie S/S, you will create a potential problem - avoid silicone, use PU products.

[Brian Kirby]

Stainless steel should be absolutely fine with aluminium. It is extensively used for rigging attachments on sailing boat masts etc, which are commonly aluminium. Brass definitely bad, bronze not much better, sheradized steel is just about OK internally, but the coating is short lived, leading to the underlying mild steel rusting, so definitely not for external use.

[lennyhb]

Not true Brian S/S in contact with aluminium the aluminium will corrode quite quickly.

Boat masts are anodised where a S/S fitting is fixed they use monal rivets as they cause less reaction than S/S however you still get some corrosion. When using S/S fixing with aluminium you should always use an insulating compound old yachtmans trick is a dab of Evostick on the nut & bolt where contact with the aluminium occurs.

[Derek Uzzell]

While it would certainly be preferable to have the fixing-bolts pass through a solid frame, as long as there's firmish insulation between inner and outer skins, and 'spacer tubes' made of a suitable material (eg. stainless steel or strong plastic) are used to prevent compression, the installation should be reasonably robust and present a realistic discouragement to opportunist thieves. The area of the lock's exterior and interior 'bases' is about 85mm x 75mm, which should be enough to resist a fair degree of leverage.

 

There's no doubt that a determined person will be able to gain entry to a motorhome whatever security devices are used (a rescue chainsaw would be my weapon of choice ;-) ), but that's not what these locks are about.

 

I note that Thule offers a version of this lock that is screwed to the door-frame

 

http://www.thule.com/en/gb/products/rv-accessories/security/locks/thule-door-frame-lock-_-308889

 

If Pete's Bessacarr has no strong structure in the position in the body-panel where a through-bolt Thule lock would be installed, a door-frame-attached version might be a viable alternative.

[Brian Kirby]

Well thanks Lenny, and apologies to Mike, I had always understood the opposite.

 

There seem to be two riders:

a) that corrosion of the aluminium in a marine environmemt is sharply increased compared to more benign environments, and

b) that where the surface area of the aluminium is large relative to the area of the stainless steel (as is the case with S/S fastenings onto aly), the aly should remain corrosion free.

OTOH, using aluminium fastenings to stainless steel is a no-no.

 

Still, I'm glad I know that now!

[Pete-B]

Thanks for all the good advice and tips, all noted and will be acted on, much appreciated.

Just out of interest there's talk of parts being aluminium and parts plastic or GRP can someone tell me what's where?

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2013-11-28 6:32 PM................I note that Thule offers a version of this lock that is screwed to the door-frame

 

http://www.thule.com/en/gb/products/rv-accessories/security/locks/thule-door-frame-lock-_-308889

 

If Pete's Bessacarr has no strong structure in the position in the body-panel where a through-bolt Thule lock would be installed, a door-frame-attached version might be a viable alternative.

Agreed! That looks a much better version, and leaves the fixings concealed in a reasonably sheltered position. Also, even if the (assumed) frame around the door opening is fairly light, it should still be possible to screw into it through the aluminium frame, so gaining a bit more strength.

 

At the very least it should deter, and will offer some resistance to attack even if the standard door lock is "done". Unfortunately, the windows on most vans are at least as vulnerable to being forced as the doors, and there seem to be relatively few products to improve their security.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

If I'm going to nick anything out your vans I'll come prepared with a sharp ended hammer, and go for some fixed glass, or a jemmy to break your plastic window catches. ;-) I've got an alarm, but in my experience everyone ignores one that's going off, except perhaps the thief, on more than one occasion I've thought leaving the doors open would save any damage, but I expect the insurers would be less than pleased. ;-)

[bigal55]

JudgeMental - 2013-11-28 11:23 AM

 

Hmm..but if they want to get in easier to knock pins out of hinges. or just jimy the whole door

or rip the windows out .

 

[globebuster]

Sorry, can't agree with your 'riders' Brian.

 

Ironically, a more saline environment can be less harmful than that caused by unexposed/protected areas, where thermal indifference would be more destructive to dissimilar metals. Which I suppose you kind of eluded to in your original reply to the post.

 

The relative area of aluminium will have no bearing on the corrosive effect of S/S...generally, but then that depends on the grading of both materials - another story all together.

As Lenny says marine related products tend to be anodised.

 

In the context of the original post something like Tef- Gel would suppress potential corrosion problems.

 

Any exposed/raw aluminium will suffer at the hands of silicone and create far more of an issue, hence the recommendation of using PU based products.

 

In my line of work I often see ridiculous use of dissimilar materials - but silicone really can be the biggest threat.

 

Blimey! - I've gone all anal - you lot are getting to be a bad influence :-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

bigal55 - 2013-11-28 10:04 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2013-11-28 11:23 AM

 

Hmm..but if they want to get in easier to knock pins out of hinges. or just jimy the whole door

or rip the windows out .

 

The thing with these exterior locks is you are advertising the fact that van unoccupied! We had proper dead locks fitted to our CB. If your doing a job do it properly.....and like you say considering any idiot can pry a window with bare hands, again what's the point,

[Derek Uzzell]

There are supplementary locks suitable for motorhomes that can be operated from inside the vehicle as well as from the outside. An example is shown here:

 

http://www.milenco.com/products/security-door-locks/security-door-lock/

 

This lock is dearer than the simpler sliding devices (£47 versus £32-£34)

 

http://www.justmilenco.co.uk/epages/es134997.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es134997/Categories/Door_Locks

 

but - if there were room to fit it on Pete-B's Bessacarr - might be worth considering.

 

The "The thing with these exterior locks is you are advertising the fact that van unoccupied" argument is intriguing. On that basis, an effective way of deterring an opportunist thief would be to fit external locks but always leave them in the 'open' position. That way a thief would be led to believe the motorhome was occupied. ;-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

When we first switched to CB,I toyed with fitting one of the "swing-out" (fiamma?) locks..but as others have said, they advertise the fact that the van is unoccupied and they just lend themselves to having a hefty crowbar jammed behind 'em anyway....:-S

 

If you're going to do it at all, to my mind, this type of thing looks a better option....

 

http://www.motorhomelocks.co.uk/Heosafe.php

[Guest JudgeMental]

Yes Derek, and leave a light on and a transistor radio playing a speech station as well.......I have a Marilyn Monroe sex doll ( fully clothed most of the time *-) ) in passenger seat as well.....

 

Yes Pepe we had the heosafe locks on doors/garage

[Will86]

So that your pastime for camping is it, hope you let her down at night.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

We leave the van open with tea and biscuits and a fiver on the table, in the hope that they will think we are nice folk and go elsewhere. ;-) just seems to be some common sense needed, yes some folk have been unlucky doing what many suggest like park where there are others, and even then if you have bad vibes go elsewhere. But I do think all of these security devices are just buying into peoples fears, largely without any justification whatsoever, that's just my opinion, people will no doubt think differently ;-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

Will85 - 2013-11-29 10:10 AM

 

So that your pastime for camping is it, hope you let her down at night.

 

Will............moi never lets the girls down :D