Brian Kirby Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 badger56 - 2013-11-29 1:35 PM I have a Auto-trail tracker FB 2013 model which was in for the first habitation service yesterday and has a major damp problem in both side walls just behind the cab.I know that Auto-trail have a 10 year body warranty and the repairs will be carrie out under this warranty ,but should I be concerned over any future problem as the van is less than a year old and you would not expect this level of damp so soon.I am worried that this may become a long term problem and wonder if anyone has any comments, i.e. should I let my dealer arrange for the repairs or should I look at other options. The dealer is confident that they can do the repair and I have always had a good relationship with them and they think they would need the van for about a month. Any comments please. This is really bad news. The obvious statement is that there should be no damp, major or otherwise. First, I would say be a little cautious how you proceed, and don't let that trip to Spain pressure you into hasty action. Look at your travel insurance to see if a defective vehicle would be a ground to claim any costs you have incurred to date, and be prepared to do so. It is at this time of year in UK, with its frequent rain, drizzle, and mist, that leaks will be most readily revealed. Consider that this leak was not spotted by you during the past year. It will presumably take another year before any repair would be conclusively declared successful or otherwise, by which time it will be far too late to reject. Taking the van to Spain, where it is generally warmer and dryer, will be liable to delay any proper testing of the repairs until autumn/winter 2014. If a full and proper repair can be completed before your planned trip, by all means go, but only if you are fully satisfied that such a repair has been carried out. Second, under the circumstances, I would speak to Citizen's Advice, and/or Trading Standards, to see what they advise, and what grounds you might have for late rejection. You must not delay this, as it is essential to reject as soon as you know of a major defect. As others have said/implied, it will not be easy, and may no longer be possible. Your use of the van is likely to be interpreted as de-facto acceptance, after which legal rejection is not normally possible. However, definitely worth getting legal advice before rejecting this approach. Please let us know how this goes. As things stand, the van is your property. If you proceed under the warranty, I believe the manufacturer will determine what kind of repair is appropriate, and has no obligation to satisfy you over how he does this. If you were to insist on the dealer carrying out the repairs himself, you would be entitled to be satisfied both as to his investigation of the cause of the leak, and as to how he proposes to make it good. However, I think the latter a bit theoretical under your circumstances, as I somewhat doubt the dealer would act on this basis, and I also doubt his staff will really have the necessary skills and materials to return the van to "as new" condition - which is what should be done. Ultimately, only you can make an assessment of the dealer's capabilities. Notwithstanding the above - but not before taking legal advice - I think I would try to set up a meeting with the dealer and an AutoTrail technical representative (both parties to have the authority to make decisions, not merely to report back), to agree with them what needs to be done, how, by whom, and when. I would then minute that meeting, and circulate copies to both AT and the dealer as the basis for proceeding. The most important thing to know is exactly where, how, and why, the water is entering. All you seem to have been told to date is where it is emerging. To be satisfied with the repair methodology, you must be certain that the source/s of the ingress have been correctly identified, and then see/hear a detailed description of the way the repair will be carried out. I believe AutoTrail have a test chamber in which they can water test their body-shells. If so, your van probably needs to go into this for the source to be determined, unless AT say they are familiar with the problem and already know its cause. I agree that the most obvious source of the leak appears to be the joint between the coachbuilt body and the cab. However, this joint runs from the base of the van on one side, up the wall, across the roof (assuming there is a roof joint: possibly not with AutoTrails), and back down the oposite wall to its base. But, the leak may not be from that seam at all, possibly coming from a cable penetration of the roof, or from a rooflight. So, the investigation may not be straightforward: hopefully it it will be. To make to proper repair, a certain amount of dismantling may be necessary, as the various panels/components are likely to have been bedded on sealant, so would need to come off for the existing sealant to be cleaned off, and new applied. Modern adhesive sealants are extremely difficult to remove, so this will not be quick, or easy. What you do not want, IMO, is application of a sealant pointing to the joint externally as this would be no more than a palliative measure, and not a proper repair. I also agree that the best remedy is likely to be for the van to go back to AutoTrail, who put it together, so are best placed to know how, and to what extent, it needs to be taken apart to effect a proper repair. However, it is only the dealer who has the LEGAL obligation to put you back into the position you should be in, with a van that does not leak. This is where I think you may need further legal advice. Can you legally require the dealer to have the van returned to the factory for investigation and repair to YOUR satisfaction, irrespective of what the warranty may say? If the dealer and/or AT resist this, and you are not satisfied that the dealer has the adequate skills, you may need an independent surveyor to assess the problem, and suggest what he thinks the most appropriate repair method. You then need AT to agree to do this, or an alternative repair the surveyor thinks reasonable. You will need to make and keep accurate, dated, records of all your contacts (including 'phone calls) with the dealer and AutoTrail, just in case! Apologies that this is rather a rag-bag of thoughts, I haven't had time to order it properly. Hope it helps somewhat. Good luck. 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Guest JudgeMental Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Don't let a trip to Spain sway any resolve I hope you have gathered from this thread! Personally would rather spend a few thousand on legal advice (if it came to it) then loose a bundle on a PX as that is what will happen.....this could be simply beginning of a very expensive nightmare.... contact CAB and reject it anyway, all info available online. Also look for other evidence of poor quality autotrails to Support your case,,there is enough of it online and on other forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 It is unfortunate that you have damp problems like this. We too had damp, found on the last two habitation checks 2012/2013 (2010 MH bought new). The first instance was the rear wall because of a badly sealed window and the second a small area around the garage door. Rectification, had we had to pay would have cost £2000/£900 respectively however the warranty covered this. We were fortunate that the dealership is an accredited/approved repair centre with a good reputation and are now confident that the rectification has indeed sorted the problem. There is nothing visible to say that there was ever any major work done on the MH which was one of our major concerns. It looks exactly as it always has done and we now have peace of mind that the sources of ingress are no more. As the first damp problem was found on the second and third hab services we were getting more than a little concerned and enquired as to what our options were. In an nutshell, as I understand it before goods can be rejected (we were considering this) the supplier/dealership/manufacturer or whomever it is provides the warranty (in our case the manufacturer) have to be given the opportunity to rectify the problem. Then, and only then, if the repair is not of a standard that is acceptable can the goods be rejected. However that is a last resort and is not something that is easily achieved. In essence as damp has been found the opportunity to rectify the problem has to be allowed. From there it is down to accepting the repair with confidence or otherwise having a good (legal) reason to reject the goods. You would probably require legal advice to confirm the reality of the problem and the likelihood/possibility of successful rejection. As you have been informed that AT have agreed under the terms of the warranty, then in my opinion you have to give them the opportunity of carrying out rectification. In our 1st case the dealership took around 6-7 weeks to gain approval/obtain the parts/materials required from Italy and had the MH in approximately 3 weeks after that. It was with them for 3 weeks. The second occasion was of a similar time scale but only with them for a week. So regarding your sojourn it should be possible to delay the rectification until your return if our experience is anything to judge by. Once the problem has been found,reported and rectification agreed there is really no 'immediate' rush to get it done and a timescale acceptable to both parties should be easy to arrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 If you contact Autotrail the person to contact is Stewert Turpin. Are you a member of Autotrail Owners Club? if so talk to them as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Peter James - 2013-11-29 4:47 PM LOL don't spoil their story with the facts. They like to knock British manufacturers Engage your brain for heavens sake! There is no old fashioned heavy wood and screw constriction in either van above *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Despite the very good advice given by Brian, IMHO the ultimate cause & extent of the damp can NOT be determined until the Van is in the workshop (preferably AutoTrail's - IMO) & has been stripped down. So ensure provision in the "list of works" for any additional work required, upon internal wall investigation has been carried out, should also be included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakota Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Get intouch with stuart turpin at autotrail hell sort you out , its best all round if a/t do the work anyway , again dont listen to the anti british brigade , ive had 10 british vans , all from new and had very few problems with them , infact eight of the vans were autotrail , my latest one ive been running for 4 years without problems and done over 40 000 miles . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Glad to see that there has been some other useful - if somewhat long-winded input to this post - Brian K and Roger for example. LOOK - there's some poor fellow with a serious problem, so I make a few suggestions and opinions in my original reply, the primary one being get a second unbiased opinion - to which I'll add, others have also suggested. Suddenly we're getting comments on relative humidity! and the BBDL [british builders defence league] are getting all tetchy and protective 8-) How is this helping the guy? Judge and others are right - send it back, camp outside the factory if you have to - BUT use due diligence first, get that independent assessment. You might have to fork out a couple of hundred quid to confirm the initial findings, but you will be in a much stronger position going forward. This is a potentially serious problem, don't rely on the dealer or Autotrail to be the sole basis for you resolving the matter. As to whether one builder is superior to another is irrelevant to Badger at the moment, we all have differing opinions - as I said earlier, I wouldn't buy a British CB, which is a genuine shame and I honestly wish I could say otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Having just read through this thread, and for fear of upsetting the apple cart I can only agree with Eddie ( Judgemental ) I mean sorry but what planet are some of you on rambling on about relative humidity, pro's and cons of British vans, methods of construction,blah blah blah, and take it back to the dealer / factory for repair, REPAIR, REPAIR ...it's a new van, for Gods sake get your money back, whatever that takes. ;-) and the pontification and as usual long winded reply from the usual suspect adds nothing but confusion IMO, here's my condensed BK version, "get your money back" :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Tracker - 2013-11-29 3:54 PM As for all those knockers of UK made vans - well they just love to justify buying foreign don't they! Take no notice for they know not what they doeth to destroy the confidence of others!! Says the front bencher on here that has learnt nothing and consistently defends the indefensible, even when handed evidence like this..... Who bought an Autotrail that was so heavy and impractical it was impossible to use legally, threw more money at it..eventually gave up and bought a panel van....and simply passed the autotrail on to another poor unsuspecting mug..... just google autotrail damp and see that you are far from alone.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-11-30 8:59 AM just google autotrail damp and see that you are far from alone.. Just did that 8-)................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-11-30 8:59 AM Tracker - 2013-11-29 3:54 PM As for all those knockers of UK made vans - well they just love to justify buying foreign don't they! Take no notice for they know not what they doeth to destroy the confidence of others!! Says the front bencher on here that has learnt nothing and consistently defends the indefensible, even when handed evidence like this..... Who bought an Autotrail that was so heavy and impractical it was impossible to use legally, threw more money at it..eventually gave up and bought a panel van....and simply passed the autotrail on to another poor unsuspecting mug..... just google autotrail damp and see that you are far from alone.. Once again the mouth of the Thames opens up wide and is still unable to make a point with creating an insult. You would never let the truth get in the way of a good fabrication would you - most of the upgrades to make the van payload legal were paid for by the supplying dealer and when sold on by me it had a very good payload, rode and handled better and was free from any known fault - and neither did it leak anywhere - and neither have any of all the UK made vans that I have ever owned - pre 1980 excepted - and there have been a few. Kindly get your facts straight. I do seem to remember the angst caused to you by a certain Eura Mobil, and please correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that the finest van ever made - until you sold it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 globebuster - 2013-11-29 11:37 PM we're getting comments on relative humidity! and the BBDL [british builders defence league] are getting all tetchy and protective 8-) How is this helping the guy? Things were being said about foreign vans that are quite simply wrong. But anyone with a modicum of common sense will have seen that. As for relative humidity I thought it might help the guy to point out you can't simply it to the point of saying either there is damp or there isn't. Damp is all around us. Its a question of how much damp is acceptable. Some people don't appear to realize that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 And you are ALL still at it! Totally pointless and futile comments as far as Badger is concerned. One thing is certain, some people clearly don't read posts or replies thoroughly. Good Luck Badger, I hope you resolve the issue - if you do decide to pitch up [pun intended] at the factory I might well join the protest :-D But do get that unbiased option from elsewhere first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badger56 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 Thanks for the advice Globebuster. Have you any suggestions as to where I could get a second opinion? My dealer is Marquis in Newbury who I have always had good service from. All the dealers in my area (Surrey) seem to be on the Auto trail dealer list, would they then give an unbiased report? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 badger56 - 2013-11-30 11:08 AM Thanks for the advice Globebuster. Have you any suggestions as to where I could get a second opinion? My dealer is Marquis in Newbury who I have always had good service from. All the dealers in my area (Surrey) seem to be on the Auto trail dealer list, would they then give an unbiased report? Well when cows fly they might, why don't you do as advised and have a word with trading standards, or even the CAB............................and again as some have said, would you REALLY be comfortable keeping the van after it has been bodged , sorry repaired, or to put it another way repaired as good as it ( wasn't ) made. (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 badger56 - 2013-11-30 11:08 AM Thanks for the advice Globebuster. Have you any suggestions as to where I could get a second opinion? My dealer is Marquis in Newbury who I have always had good service from. All the dealers in my area (Surrey) seem to be on the Auto trail dealer list, would they then give an unbiased report? I'd of thought you'd need to get an independent engineers report............for a completely unbiased view :-| ..... Just Google motorhome independent engineers ;-)..................Here's one from the top of the list... http://www.scotiavehicleinspection.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 globebuster - 2013-11-30 10:38 AM One thing is certain, some people clearly don't read posts or replies thoroughly. Good Luck Badger, I hope you resolve the issue Well at least we can agree on that bit. Those who do read posts and replies thoroughly will be able to see through your bluster :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 No problem Badger, Please don't take it to another Autotrail dealer! - that will certainly not be unbiased. Seek a totally independent specialist - and when you do, don't mention the current situation, at least not in the first instance. I would not be happy with your current findings being the sole basis for action, or conclusive proof as to the degree of damage. You can PM me if you like - I'm quite happy to discuss things further. I stand by my first reply - send it back, don't accept a repair. Do seek legal advice, free or otherwise. One foot - give the man a break, if you're frustrated because he doesn't appear to listen - [give him time he has a lot to take in] - don't read the bloody thread! He can do without snide comments from you or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 globebuster - 2013-11-30 10:38 AM And you are ALL still at it! Totally pointless and futile comments as far as Badger is concerned. I think "ALL" is a tad over the top don't you, some very good advice if you pick through it all. ;-) But I do think the Judge with his very first short and succinct reply, and any one else SHOUTING get your money back is the best advice for the OP ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-11-30 11:46 AM get your money back is the best advice Not necessarily. If the van is otherwise ideal for his needs and the only issue is damp ingress far better, in my view, to get it factory repaired rather than face all the arguments, legal mumbo jumbo, excuses, hassle and delays that getting a refund would inevitably entail - only to find that prices have risen in the meanwhile and getting any replacement will cost even more. Meanwhile as time passes, I don't whether you can go on using a van that you want to reject while you await the outcome so possibly holidays might have to be put on hold for the duration? Far better methinks to ignore the anti UK rhetoric, take the practical as opposed to theoretical path of least resistance and get it fixed as even trading it in will cost whatever is needed to replace, or if trading down a significant loss from the price paid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Come on Rich, the bloke states " has a major damp problem in both side walls" would that give anyone the confidence to have it sorted by the very people that made the thing. It could be a Friday afternoon job, but what would bug me for ever more is how much more of the van is Friday afternoon that one has yet to find out, however you shake it the OP is going to be forever looking for further problems in the future, that is not a nice place to be..........well he would if he was me ! And I'm not anti British as you know singing the praises of IH as I have always done ;-) even though I've now gone over to the dark side. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Yeah sorry, I ought to have said most instead of ALL :-D It's Globebuster not bluster Peter - maybe you didn't read it thoroughly :-D :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Just because the dealer has identified and the owner, with great respect to him, has been advised of a 'major damp problem' does not mean a lot until the van is taken apart, preferably by someone familiar with the way it was assembled because water creeps from even a small point of entry to cover a wide area and a little bit can go a long way. However it is unlikely at this stage that any serious damage has occurred and if it can be dried out and resealed you would have as good as or maybe a better van than one where the problem is not discovered for years? Without belittling the scale of the problem in any way, damp meters can mislead especially if readings are taken on a cold damp day when the van has been out of use and condensation, even if it is unseen, can be present. I know this because I had a dealer tell me so when he checked a van of ours in similar circumstances and then, at his suggestion, gave it a clean bill of health a week later when it was warmer and drier and I had warmed it through then left the doors and windows open for air to circulate in the sunshine. Whilst it is good and right that as many view points as possible are gathered, the pessimists and prophets of doom and gloom are not really helping to find a practical solution which I believe is what the OP asked for? My first thought still stands - first point of call for me would be talk to the Auto Trail factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 That's your opinion Rich, of course no one knows the extent of the problem / damage on here, so I'm out of it, except to say I once bought a caravan with ( unknown to me at the time ) a major damp problem, ( ood how some people can appear entirely trust worthy ) I'm sure construction methods have changed, but what wetness you could see was like an iceberg tip compared to what I found, I soon bodged it up and got shot, ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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