Reputations

[Brian Kirby]

This topic is endlessly argued, usually with more blind faith than with fact, so let's for once see if we can tease out some facts?

 

Which European motorhome manufacturers have, in the opinion of members, the best reputations for the quality of their products?

 

I suppose I have to clarify that, for the purpose of the question, the UK is part of Europe even though some seem not to know that, and others wish it otherwise! :-)

For comparability, we should probably exclude those manufacturers whose entire range costs in excess of £100,000, plus any makers' ranges where the cheapest van costs more than £100,000!

 

Over! :-)

[George Collings]

Brian, I always had you down as a man of peace.

Where can I hire a tin helmet.

[Hawcara]

In order to get this post rolling, I will say Hymer and many of the German brands. Brave thing though to start this one off. :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

I guess the answer is pretty easy to find out............how many of their conversions are still on the road 20 years later ?;-)........

 

There does seem to be plenty of elderly A class Hymer's around...........and GRP Autosleepers :D.......

[bolero boy]

Well, Brian. A few that come to mind that fit your criteria in that their 'entire' reange doesnt cost over £100k..........Cathargo, Concorde(? Just?), N&B, , Hymer as mentioned, how about Knaus?

No doubt we'll get Adria, Dethleffs, Burstner and Rapido from the mid-range, but what about at the cheaper end.....well, we now have Carado and Sunlight showing good reviews as extra ranges from bigger players.

I wont comment on my own van......as my good experiences may not match the reputation, which was what this thread is about.

[rupert123]

Brian, opinion, reputation and fact are very different. Opinion is often based on a persons, usually, narrow experience, reputation on what a person observes or reads, fact on how they choose to use this information. A good example of this is the constantly stated opinion that UK vans must be bad because they get more bad reports. This, of course, is total rubbish, some 80% of vans sold in the UK are UK built therefore it follows most complaints will be about these. It would be interesting to sort out a percentage of complaints verses sales in the UK and I suspect a totally different picture would emerge. My last four vans have all been UK built and all have behaved well, even my little loved pvc. None have ever let me down or had issues with damp, all had good payloads, all were well equipped. Would I buy a van made on mainland Europe, yes certainly if it suited me, was properly equipped, and at the right price, it would also have to be rhd and bought in the UK, not privately imported. I have had in the last five years, two Swifts, one Autocruise and one Autosleeper and all have been first class so until someone can give me a very good reason to change, not the usual emotional rubbish, I with stick with UK vans up to the prices I can afford.

 

[Hawcara]

Brian,

In a previous thread concerning comformatic gearbox, you state you had a few minor problems with your Hymer. Out of curiosity, what were they. I ask this, as I stated Hymer in a previous post. :-D

[lennyhb]

For mid range vans can't go wrong in stating Hymer, build quality good with their Pual system.

Not only is the build quality good, the dealer and factory backup is excellent they even undertake repairs outside of warranty without quibbling.

 

Edit:

Carthago are now gaining a good reputation in the mid range market with their cheaper vans and like Hymer offer a timber free wall construction.

 

Edit:

Unlike you Brian to start a thread that could get controversial and very heated. :D

[Rayjsj]

I think without Doubt Hymer have 'Stood the test of time' lots of elderly Hymers still trundling about, although this 'Umwelt sticker' thing, must be seeing the end of some of them ? We have never fancied one, because of the 'Rigid' layouts/tables , poor kitchens and equipment, and Dark wood finishes.

I also think (like pelmetman) that Autosleeper are 'Up there' with the best, The monocoque GRP bodied ones, Made Autosleeper's reputation, that still stands, whether another 20 years will see any of the 'Styrofoam' ones still around is another matter. The Pre-Swift Autocruises were good, and well thought of, and popular. Shame they are not still around.

have no experience of other Brands (except my present one) and I hav'nt had it long enough to comment yet (but so far, not very good).

I like the quality on the Dethleffs vans I have seen, but again, we hav'nt seen a layout that we like(we dislike 'Pullman Lounges'), and they don't put habitation doors on the UK side, which we find a disadvantage.(my Wife is disabled and cannot use the cab door, so has to use the Hab door to get in and out, Dangerous when in the UK with the door on the Traffic side). Ray

 

[gwyn]

La strada for me

[Brock]

Quality can be defined in numerous ways but broadly along the lines of, 'consistently delivered solutions within budget, on time and with the minimum loss to society that demonstrate an understanding of customer needs' or 'how the recipient of the product or service views the product or service: before buying, upon delivery, and after the delivery-and use'.

 

Therefore, much of the manufacturers reputation is down to the dealers. Hymer benefited from having Madisons and Hymer UK as its dealer although Brownhills at Newark may not have enhanced the reputation. Generally, German manufacturers publish brochures highlighting the quality of build and engineering whereas UK based producers focus on equipment. For the Germans, this is about positioning the brand as s standard for quality which is easier to do thanks to the people at BMW and the Volkswagen group. It's lifestyle marketing that pitches the product at an aspirational level. When you join this aspirational group, you are unlikely to admit that you have bought the Emperor's new clothes .

 

Auto Sleeper's reputation is high possibly because of longevity - like Hymer, the positive attitude of its Members Club and also the attitude of the service staff down at Willersey.

 

Using the definitions above, I would go for Elldis; decent dealers, cheap and innovative products that regularly score well as value for money, and seem to have happy motorhomers as owners. Probably the Primark of motorhoming [except for the 'made where labour is cheap label]. Wouldn't buy one though.

[bigal55]

rupert123 - 2013-12-15 5:15 PM

 

Brian, opinion, reputation and fact are very different. Opinion is often based on a persons, usually, narrow experience, reputation on what a person observes or reads, fact on how they choose to use this information. A good example of this is the constantly stated opinion that UK vans must be bad because they get more bad reports. This, of course, is total rubbish, some 80% of vans sold in the UK are UK built therefore it follows most complaints will be about these. It would be interesting to sort out a percentage of complaints verses sales in the UK and I suspect a totally different picture would emerge. My last four vans have all been UK built and all have behaved well, even my little loved pvc. None have ever let me down or had issues with damp, all had good payloads, all were well equipped. Would I buy a van made on mainland Europe, yes certainly if it suited me, was properly equipped, and at the right price, it would also have to be rhd and bought in the UK, not privately imported. I have had in the last five years, two Swifts, one Autocruise and one Autosleeper and all have been first class so until someone can give me a very good reason to change, not the usual emotional rubbish, I with stick with UK vans up to the prices I can afford.

Agree 100%, no problems at all with the swift part of our m/home, far better equipped than continental vans at a similar price.I met a german on an aire last year with his 4th Hymer a class, said he would never buy another one as he thought the bought in parts were now sub-standard. Did it put me of a Hymer, no, as Henry states if your van has no problems then that make is good. PLEASE don,t knock a make unless you have personal experiece of that make.

[Guest peter]

Any really.....................as long as they are not made in the u/k. Who can't seem to get away from producing layouts that resemble caravans. With all the faffing about with cushions to make up a bed. With twin opposing settees that resemble a subway carriage, Ugghh.

[Tracker]

peter - 2013-12-15 6:57 PM

Any really.....................as long as they are not made in the u/k. Who can't seem to get away from producing layouts that resemble caravans. With all the faffing about with cushions to make up a bed. With twin opposing settees that resemble a subway carriage

 

As long as we are looking at personal dislikes and not allowing factual experience of individual makes to cloud our judgement -

 

Any van really......................... as long as they don't have that ridiculous continental half dinette which is so uncomfortable for evening lounging especially when the TV is at roof level or at a very awkward height / angle / distance from the seating and the kitchen is useless for food preparation with ridiculous cooking facilities and no usable work surface for preparation without having the table blocking the floor space.

 

As for makes - we have had good service from Autosleepers, Autocruise (pre Swift era only), and Autotrail, with vans from the likes of IH and Timberland being well regarded by those who have one.

 

Never have seen the need to by a foreign made van, particularly when the layouts do not suit our tastes - as evidenced by the sheer volume of them up for sale on any dealer's forecourt as a % of their total volume sold when compared to the number of UK made vans available used!

[globebuster]

Elddis!

 

Cheap - Yes [and a bit nasty]

 

Innovative - Tell me that was a joke (lol)

 

Design - 8-)

 

Sorry I just couldn't help it............

[Steve928]

peter - 2013-12-15 6:57 PM

 

Any really.....................as long as they are not made in the u/k. Who can't seem to get away from producing layouts that resemble caravans. With all the faffing about with cushions to make up a bed. With twin opposing settees that resemble a subway carriage, Ugghh.

 

Any really.................. as long as they have a proper lounge in the coachbuilt part of the van: sitting bolt-upright on a seat with a too-short squab, or worst of all, sitting in the cab seats in the steel, single-glazed, uninsulated part of the van and being plunged into darkness once the silver screens are fitted isn't for me.

 

 

 

[Tracker]

Which all goes to show the totally pointless nature of this particular topic which is nearly always going to be subjectively based on opposing individual perceptions rather than objectively based on enough individual experiences to draw any meaningful conclusions?

 

One man's meat is another man's poison would be a better title!

[malc d]

Brian Kirby - 2013-12-15 3:43 PM

 

 

 

Which European motorhome manufacturers have, in the opinion of members, the best reputations for the quality of their products?

 

 

Over! :-)

 

 

Didn't take long for your question on QUALITY to wander off to personal preferences on layouts Brian.

 

 

:-D

[rolandrat]

Without hesitation, Hymer "A" class for coachbuilt and IH for van conversions. These are based on ownership experience. Not one of them has ever had to be returned to the supplying dealer for any fault rectification.

[Guest peter]

Tracker - 2013-12-15 7:33 PM

 

Which all goes to show the totally pointless nature of this particular topic which is nearly always going to be subjectively based on opposing individual perceptions rather than objectively based on enough individual experiences to draw any meaningful conclusions?

 

One man's meat is another man's poison would be a better title!

O/k Richard meaningful conclusions based on experience.

 

Rapido :-Well built with fibreglass body skins with no alloy to corrode or dent easily. Beautiful wood on the interior. Very nice lounging potential. No oven, which as far as we're concerned is a bonus, as we don't do slap up roast dinners in our van or our boat (which does have an oven).

 

Burstner:- interior a bit cramped with small food prep' area in non A classes. Lounging potential not good with cramped dinette area I no A classes. Still use alloy skins on non A classes with side skirts that corrode at base, (but not critical as not part of sidewalls). But great dealer service to sort any problems.

 

Hymer:- Great selection of layouts so easy to get one that suits you. Very good build quality and built to last.

 

LeVoyageur:- Custom built, so layout and finish is your choice. Built from the outside in, so furniture is fitted after the shell is finished, so shell does not rely on furniture for rigidity. Shell is made up from only four fibreglass mouldings, so few joints. No chance of damp ingress, unless skin is punctured. No wooden members at all are used to make up the shell, it is all aluminium alloy. Built to last as long as the Mercedes chassis. Sadly this construction method is no more, as they are now making them in the same manner as all others in the Pilote range as it is faster. A retrograde step in my opinion and makes the big price premium of doubtful benefit.

ALL THE ABOVE ARE WINTERISED, WITH FRESH WATER TANKS INBOARD. The LeVoyageur having an insulated and heated waste tank also.

[Corky 8]

IMO, 1st Hymer, quality build and Reputation with good dealer back up.

        2nd Rapido, Quality Build initiative design and Layout, good Reputation for being and staying dry.

        3rd Le Voyageur, choice of own layout Quality build,

         4th Burstner, good build quality, good range of models.

         5th Auto cruise improving quality, modern layouts .

this is based solely on the Habitation side of the Motorhome.  Engine choice is another thing. 

[gmacz]

McLouis - a big vote for this van.

Cheap or cheapest end of the market and just does what it is meant todo, be a motorhome.

[snowie]

Hi there;

as the question was..............." Which European motorhome manufacturers have, in the opinion of members, the best reputations for the quality of their products? "

 

My perception of this is toss-up, between Hymer and La Strada. I'm not saying that these reputations are deserved, just that they have them.

On the basis of my own inspections of their vans, I think they are deserved, but their products are not perfect.

 

The question was not; " name the manufacturer of the best van in Europe"

 

regards

alan b

 

[Brian Kirby]

Well spotted, Alan. The question is about reputations. Those things that take years to build, and can be destroyed in days. I accept one should not rely blindly on them, because changes in production can mean that what worked before no longer works as well. Nevertheless, they do convey a certain truth.

 

However, few vans get a reputation for being reliable and trouble-free when they are unreliable and troublesome, however many may be sold. Folk don't generally complain when the product does what it says on the tin.

 

Manufacturers choose their dealer networks so, if the dealer is an un-cooperative dud, it is the manufacturer's fault for trusting him with their reputation. The buck has to stop somewhere.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I would imagine most people have only owned a handful of vans to make comparisons about, my latest acquisition has been because of my perceived quality of build, and recommendation by someone else who has the same brand, he says he wouldn't buy anything else. ( Oh and by the way Peter many if not all UK Rapidos have an oven ) They all have one thing in common though, that is the dominance of certain manufacturers for all the appliances and fittings, some of which are dire, and are overly complicated ( cue my troublesome Truma boiler that appears to have more electronics than the Apollo 11, 2 PCBs ,seven relays and two fans for starters ) and are ridiculously expensive as a consequence, now we even have wet systems, I'm bound to ask why ? does anyone really need an additional complication especially in a space not much bigger than an average bedroom .

 

Some people border on the evangelical in their choice of brand or country of manufacture, despite ever having first hand knowledge of alternatives, and of course the other old chestnut is a lot of folk will defend their purchase decisions come what may. Others on the other hand realising their purchase was not exactly what they wanted will rubbish the brand or design for no other reason that it did not meet their particular expectations

 

In conclusion, perhaps the truth is out there, but somehow I doubt you'll find it ;-)