Off to Spain.

[sshortcircuit]

Everybodies capabilities are different. What some consider excessive would be acceptable to others. Its about measuring your own capabilities which is your choice and as I aluded to not available to all.

[Guest Had Enough]

sshortcircuit - 2013-12-30 11:58 AM

 

Everybodies capabilities are different. What some consider excessive would be acceptable to others. Its about measuring your own capabilities which is your choice and as I eluded to not available to all.

 

Quite right, and it's also about the type of road that you're driving on as I outline above. Some roads are far more stressful and much more hard work than others.

[trickydicky]

Wow, can't believe some of these threads.it is far more stressful reading these than driving for 9 hours. Chill ! For anyone Interested,I'd like to point out that I have a full class 1 HGV license which I have used accident free for many many years on English roads ( you can't get more stressful driving) . I find driving in France/ spain a doddle compared to this especially through the night with no traffic. I am vigilant at all times ( otherwise I wouldn't drive for so long). In fact I am so vigilant that I even have time to observe all the motorhome/caravan drivers that shouldn't be on the road at all !!! As for calling me " macho man" well, all I can say is you don't know me at all, so keep your childish comments to yourself.

[bolero boy]

I commented on the fact that 9 hours driving with one short (30min) break seemed excessive.

The 'macho' reference was not that you do it but that you broadcast that it was no big deal. Holding an HGV class 1 license should surely make you more aware of the importance of plenty of staggered breaks during what is, in effect, a days work at the wheel.

I repeat, I could easily drive all day on a deserted motorway, or dual carriage way, but levels of concentration must fade after many hours at the wheel, which is why I don't do it.

I take your point about dashing through the northern part of France in wintertime where swift progress is required to meet your requirements.

I'm not criticising as such, just raising the issue that its very easy for anyone to just 'do another hour' when they may already be tired.

I hope you have a good trip and don't meet too many vans being driven by people who clearly shouldn't be driving at all ;-)

[Guest Peter James]

trickydicky - 2013-12-31 2:48 PM

I have a full class 1 HGV license which I have used accident free for many many years on English roads ( you can't get more stressful driving) . I find driving in France/ spain a doddle compared to this especially through the night with no traffic. I am vigilant at all times ( otherwise I wouldn't drive for so long). In fact I am so vigilant that I even have time to observe all the motorhome/caravan drivers that shouldn't be on the road at all !!! As for calling me " macho man" well, all I can say is you don't know me at all, so keep your childish comments to yourself.

 

That sums me up too. But I wouldn't chose to do stints like that for pleasure. Too much like a busman's holiday. If I was going down to Benidorm for a month I would take about a fortnight to get there and the same to get back. Thats the beauty of having everything with you. Make the journey part of the holiday, instead of an ordeal like being at work :-)

[Guest Peter James]

Had Enough - 2013-12-30 11:56 AM

I have never felt stressed out with this schedule but I have felt stressed out by five hours on D roads stuck behind slow drivers, enduring diversions and going round villages that have ten roundabouts to negotiate.

 

 

That keeps me awake. I would probably be more likely to fall asleep or my attention to wander on a motorway. Although I have done well over a million miles of motorway driving for work. So I prefer to get off on the minor roads now for a change, with more interesting places to stop and see. When I drive down to cornwall I meander down through the cotswolds etc - all the places I never got to see when I drove HGVs, even though the motorways in Britain are 'free' I rarely use them. Its not about money, although you seem to think everything is.

[Minicamper]

We used to find campsites in France open all year for our winter trips to Spain from Buckinghamshire. Day one crossing via Dover, stop at Rambouillet near Paris by 4pm. Nice walk into town for coffee. Day 2 away by 9 or 9.30, drive to Lodeve, stop at 4pm again. Day 3, away by 9 or so, next campsite stop somewhere in Spain! We used motorways, shared the driving, stopped every 2hours for breaks, coffee, lunch etc. and were always pitched up by 4 with enough time for a walk in the daylight. Everyone does it their own way. We used motorways to maximise our time in the sun, but also enjoyed stopping at sites in France, though we knew with 2 drivers it was perfectly possible to do the drive safely in one very long day/night stint.

[Guest Had Enough]

Peter James - 2014-01-01 12:43 PM

 

Had Enough - 2013-12-30 11:56 AM

I have never felt stressed out with this schedule but I have felt stressed out by five hours on D roads stuck behind slow drivers, enduring diversions and going round villages that have ten roundabouts to negotiate.

 

 

That keeps me awake. I would probably be more likely to fall asleep or my attention to wander on a motorway. Although I have done well over a million miles of motorway driving for work. So I prefer to get off on the minor roads now for a change, with more interesting places to stop and see. When I drive down to cornwall I meander down through the cotswolds etc - all the places I never got to see when I drove HGVs, even though the motorways in Britain are 'free' I rarely use them. Its not about money, although you seem to think everything is.

 

Do you post in this manner just to antagonise? You specialise in this tactic in Chatterbox. You really should refrain from bringing your argumentative stirring into Motorhome Matters.

 

I don't think that it's all about money for everyone, but it clearly is for some, which they freely admit, and good luck to them. I've no problem with that.

 

But once more, you're another who seems incapable of discerning the difference between transiting a country and touring it.

 

Have you ever driven to Spain in January? If you have you'll know that there are few campsites open, the aires, whilst plentiful, have no water or toilet disposal facilities as they're turned off to prevent freezing.

 

And if motorways are so boring and minor roads aid concentration, perhaps you can explain why motorway have by far the lowest accident rates?

 

This is just one paragraph from the link below, and this is from the AA:

 

"There is much evidence that motorways are our most feared and avoided roads, yet statistically they are safer than other roads. By steering clear of them drivers not only face a longer, slower journey, but are potentially putting themselves at greater risk on A-roads**.

 

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/news/motorway-phobia-aa-route-planner.html

 

If you don't like motorways and wish to have a riskier and slower journey I'm very happy for you. It's a free country.

 

If people don't want to pay tolls I'm happy for them as well. I really don't care. I just wish that you and others would also respect my style of getting through freezing, boring northern France in the middle of winter. Now if I were touring a region of France as opposed to transiting it, I wouldn't use motorways either.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Broke the habit of a lifetime and paid the toll for the new section of toll from Bordeaux to Biarritz (needed to get there early for the leccy for the fridge).......which starts at Pissos........ :D

 

For info its 4 class 2 tolls 2 x 5.30 1 x 5.20 and 1 x 1.80................we used our credit card as its easier than faffing around with cash.........don't even need to enter your pin :-S.........

 

 

 

 

[sshortcircuit]

pelmetman - 2014-01-01 2:33 PM

 

Broke the habit of a lifetime and paid the toll for the new section of toll from Bordeaux to Biarritz (needed to get there early for the leccy for the fridge).......which starts at Pissos........ :D

 

For info its 4 class 2 tolls 2 x 5.30 1 x 5.20 and 1 x 1.80................we used our credit card as its easier than faffing around with cash.........don't even need to enter your pin :-S.........

 

Thanks for the info David. It looks like €17.30 for 85 miles?

[Guest pelmetman]

sshortcircuit - 2014-01-01 3:51 PM

 

pelmetman - 2014-01-01 2:33 PM

 

Broke the habit of a lifetime and paid the toll for the new section of toll from Bordeaux to Biarritz (needed to get there early for the leccy for the fridge).......which starts at Pissos........ :D

 

For info its 4 class 2 tolls 2 x 5.30 1 x 5.20 and 1 x 1.80................we used our credit card as its easier than faffing around with cash.........don't even need to enter your pin :-S.........

 

Thanks for the info David. It looks like €17.30 for 85 miles?

 

Or about 15 quid 8-).............nice new road and all that.......but we can't go fast enough to benefit from it :D........once our fridge is sorted we'll try and find a different route ;-).........

[Brian Kirby]

Clearly travel by motorway is faster overall than travel by other road classes. Statistically, in UK, as Frank's AA quote demonstrates they are also safer per mile travelled. I have not seen, nor tried to seek out, corresponding data for France, but would be surprised if the answers were significantly different. However, traffic densities on French roads are generally far lower than is the case in UK. There are miles of near empty French motorway that make me wonder why they bothered, and there are also thousands of miles of D roads across France that carry so little traffic I wonder if the risk, taking account of the lower speed limits can, actually, be that much higher than for a motorway.

 

All I am arguing here is that the actual additional risk, on a well chosen route, is not IMO so much greater that it need concern us. However, we each have our risk thresholds.

 

That apart, I have to say I'm generally more of the Peter persuasion, than the Frank persuasion, when it comes to choosing routes. I find motorway driving tedious, and much prefer D roads for their driving experience, roundabouts, villages, tractors, trucks and all! There is just so much more peripheral interest, and even the odd serendipitous find, as you go along.

 

If the motorway is a toll motorway, the tolls for motorhomes are significant, plus the fuel in motorway service stations is among the most expensive in France. So, speed, as ever, has its compensations and its costs.

 

As to facts, from Calais to Le Perthus, via Rouen and Chartres, avoiding toll autoroutes, is about 755.5 miles. Coming back up the same route, but allowing tolls, is about 728 miles. Both routes are non-motorway between Rouen and Janville (N of Orleans), via Evreux, Dreux and Chartres (though most is dual carriageway).

 

Using MS Autoroute, adjusted for motorhome driving speeds, starting at 10:30, ending at 16:00, with a one hour lunch break, the motorway route from Le Perthus would take 2 days and 4 hours driving (arriving 14:30), so two overnight stops: one near Clermont Ferrand, the other near Chartres. On the same basis, the non-toll route to Le Perthus would take two days and 7.5 hours (arriving later, at 18:00).

 

For the toll-free route, the overnight stops are also near Chartres and Clermont-Ferrand.

 

There are two campsites with heated sanitary facilities, open year round, near Chartres, and three, also with heated sanitary facilities, near Clermont-Ferrand (plus two more with unheated facilities). Needless to say, this in not the only feasible route, it is just the nearest straight line route, avoiding Paris.

 

Because I have spent some time adjusting the "driving speeds" on the different road categories over the years, the Autoroute timings will be reasonably reliable for planning purposes. Clearly, those wishing to start driving earlier, or end later, would be able to get the motorway route down to two days, but they would be longish days, and they'd only get you from Calias to the Spanish border.

 

So, you'd pay some tolls, and pay more for your Fuel, but save about 3.5 hours driving time in the process, by using motorway to the maximum. You'd also travel that bit safer. Weather would be a further consideration, and I think I'd possibly be inclined to avoid the Auvergne in other than mild winters, even though it would mean a longer journey and, if snowy or icy, I think I'd probably be inclined to favour the motorways as less likely to be slippery or blocked. However, that aside, I don't think the route differences are sufficiant to justify some of the very assertive claims being made as to the advantages of one over the other. They are different, and one is a bit slower, though cheaper. Yer pays yer money................:-)

[Guest Peter James]

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 2:01 PM

 

Have you ever driven to Spain in January? If you have you'll know that there are few campsites open, the aires, whilst plentiful, have no water or toilet disposal facilities as they're turned off to prevent freezing.

 

 

Yep, done that several times. But I think outside the box.

I carry up to 160 litres of water and park in any quiet convenient street to sleep overnight, saving all the bother of looking for a site just to sleep in my own bed.Number 2 toilet is a plastic bag in a bucket, the tied plastic bag then put in the nearest dog waste bin - because I cannot think of a cleaner portable toilet - can you?. Number ones are in a wide necked (fabric conditioner) plastic bottle, recycled by pouring over a suitable area like a grass verge. What could be cleaner than that? But I guess you will think thats only about saving money too. :-(

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2014-01-01 4:38 PM

 

Clearly travel by motorway is faster overall than travel by other road classes. Statistically, in UK, as Frank's AA quote demonstrates they are also safer per mile travelled. I have not seen, nor tried to seek out, corresponding data for France, but would be surprised if the answers were significantly different. However, traffic densities on French roads are generally far lower than is the case in UK. There are miles of near empty French motorway that make me wonder why they bothered, and there are also thousands of miles of D roads across France that carry so little traffic I wonder if the risk, taking account of the lower speed limits can, actually, be that much higher than for a motorway.

 

All I am arguing here is that the actual additional risk, on a well chosen route, is not IMO so much greater that it need concern us. However, we each have our risk thresholds.

 

That apart, I have to say I'm generally more of the Peter persuasion, than the Frank persuasion, when it comes to choosing routes. I find motorway driving tedious, and much prefer D roads for their driving experience, roundabouts, villages, tractors, trucks and all! There is just so much more peripheral interest, and even the odd serendipitous find, as you go along.

 

If the motorway is a toll motorway, the tolls for motorhomes are significant, plus the fuel in motorway service stations is among the most expensive in France. So, speed, as ever, has its compensations and its costs.

 

As to facts, from Calais to Le Perthus, via Rouen and Chartres, avoiding toll autoroutes, is about 755.5 miles. Coming back up the same route, but allowing tolls, is about 728 miles. Both routes are non-motorway between Rouen and Janville (N of Orleans), via Evreux, Dreux and Chartres (though most is dual carriageway).

 

Using MS Autoroute, adjusted for motorhome driving speeds, starting at 10:30, ending at 16:00, with a one hour lunch break, the motorway route from Le Perthus would take 2 days and 4 hours driving (arriving 14:30), so two overnight stops: one near Clermont Ferrand, the other near Chartres. On the same basis, the non-toll route to Le Perthus would take two days and 7.5 hours (arriving later, at 18:00).

 

For the toll-free route, the overnight stops are also near Chartres and Clermont-Ferrand.

 

There are two campsites with heated sanitary facilities, open year round, near Chartres, and three, also with heated sanitary facilities, near Clermont-Ferrand (plus two more with unheated facilities). Needless to say, this in not the only feasible route, it is just the nearest straight line route, avoiding Paris.

 

Because I have spent some time adjusting the "driving speeds" on the different road categories over the years, the Autoroute timings will be reasonably reliable for planning purposes. Clearly, those wishing to start driving earlier, or end later, would be able to get the motorway route down to two days, but they would be longish days, and they'd only get you from Calias to the Spanish border.

 

So, you'd pay some tolls, and pay more for your Fuel, but save about 3.5 hours driving time in the process, by using motorway to the maximum. You'd also travel that bit safer. Weather would be a further consideration, and I think I'd possibly be inclined to avoid the Auvergne in other than mild winters, even though it would mean a longer journey and, if snowy or icy, I think I'd probably be inclined to favour the motorways as less likely to be slippery or blocked. However, that aside, I don't think the route differences are sufficiant to justify some of the very assertive claims being made as to the advantages of one over the other. They are different, and one is a bit slower, though cheaper. Yer pays yer money................:-)

 

Good post as always.

My holiday starts when I leave the house, and ends when I return, the time spent driving is irrelevant to me.:)

[Guest pelmetman]

Peter James - 2014-01-01 5:20 PM

 

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 2:01 PM

 

Have you ever driven to Spain in January? If you have you'll know that there are few campsites open, the aires, whilst plentiful, have no water or toilet disposal facilities as they're turned off to prevent freezing.

 

 

Yep, done that several times. But I think outside the box.

I carry up to 160 litres of water and park in any quiet convenient street to sleep overnight, saving all the bother of looking for a site just to sleep in my own bed.Number 2 toilet is a plastic bag in a bucket, the tied plastic bag then put in the nearest dog waste bin - because I cannot think of a cleaner portable toilet - can you?. Number ones are in a wide necked (fabric conditioner) plastic bottle, recycled by pouring over a suitable area like a grass verge. What could be cleaner than that? But I guess you will think thats only about saving money too. :-(

 

Cor......You is a proper hardcore camper Peter B-)................Although :-S...............

 

 

I can imagine the look on my Mrs face when I tell her to sh*t in a bin bag 8-)........

[Guest Had Enough]

Peter James - 2014-01-01 5:20 PM

 

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 2:01 PM

 

Have you ever driven to Spain in January? If you have you'll know that there are few campsites open, the aires, whilst plentiful, have no water or toilet disposal facilities as they're turned off to prevent freezing.

 

 

............................ But I guess you will think thats only about saving money too. :-(

 

Your rather strange toilet habits are of no interest to me. I don't really care how you travel or what you do. I just wish that you'd stop worrying about what I do.

 

But why is it that you can't stop yourself from making these nasty little remarks? You've alienated almost everyone in Chatterbox, please don't start here.

[Guest Peter James]

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 6:09 PM

 

Peter James - 2014-01-01 5:20 PM

 

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 2:01 PM

 

Have you ever driven to Spain in January? If you have you'll know that there are few campsites open, the aires, whilst plentiful, have no water or toilet disposal facilities as they're turned off to prevent freezing.

 

 

............................ But I guess you will think thats only about saving money too. :-(

 

Your rather strange toilet habits are of no interest to me. I don't really care how you travel or what you do. .

 

You shouldn't ask the question if you don't want to know the answer

[Guest Had Enough]

Peter James - 2014-01-01 6:36 PM

 

You shouldn't ask the question if you don't want to know the answer

 

You're right of course, I shouldn't have asked, especially when you chose to embellish your answer with tales of your very odd sanitary arrangements. Just thinking about what you do has put me off my dinner. Defecating into plastic bags and then carrying it to a dog-poo disposal? Ye gods!

[Guest Peter James]

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 7:27 PM

 

Peter James - 2014-01-01 6:36 PM

 

You shouldn't ask the question if you don't want to know the answer

 

You're right of course, I shouldn't have asked, especially when you chose to embellish your answer with tales of your very odd sanitary arrangements. Just thinking about what you do has put me off my dinner. Defecating into plastic bags and then carrying it to a dog-poo disposal? Ye gods!

You prefer having it slopping around in your van, hoping it doesn't leak before you can find somewhere to empty it (what sort of a job is that), then re using the same container instead of a fresh plastic bin liner ....... Enjoy your dinner ;-)

[Guest Had Enough]

Peter James - 2014-01-01 7:37 PM

 

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 7:27 PM

 

Peter James - 2014-01-01 6:36 PM

 

You shouldn't ask the question if you don't want to know the answer

 

You're right of course, I shouldn't have asked, especially when you chose to embellish your answer with tales of your very odd sanitary arrangements. Just thinking about what you do has put me off my dinner. Defecating into plastic bags and then carrying it to a dog-poo disposal? Ye gods!

You prefer having it slopping around in your van, hoping it doesn't leak before you can find somewhere to empty it (what sort of a job is that), then re using the same container instead of a fresh plastic bin liner ....... Enjoy your dinner ;-)

 

Now let me think - I can go into my very nice shower room and use my very nice loo, with its sealed container and flushing facility. I can then empty it (it's never leaked once in decades of camping) into a public lavatory, or other disposal point (the loos on the motorway picnic aires are ideal).

 

Or then again, I could squat over a bucket and crap into a plastic bag. I can then keep a plastic bag of sh*t in the motorhome until I find a suitable dog-poo disposal point. I can further enhance this sophisticated motorhoming experience by peeing in a bottle and storing my pee bottle until I find another suitable place to pour it out.

 

Whilst I'm at it I suppose I could also save on water by looking out for a suitable stream to have a quick dip in (after I've broken the ice of course).

 

Yep, I've thought about it! I think I'll stick to the civilised method that I'm already using thanks!

 

But, heh ho! If you enjoy squatting over a bucket, who am I to argue! Having read what you do I'm sure that hundreds of members will be going out buying buckets and ripping out their Thetfords! ;-)

 

By the way, it doesn't slop around in the 'van, haven't you ever you seen a built-in Thetford? They're really good. It does slop around in a sealed holding container, but that's what breaks it up and makes for easy disposal. Add some nice toilet fluid and it there's no horrible smell when you empty it either. I dread to think what your plastic bag contents smell like until you manage to tie the end off! (lol) (lol) (lol) Still, it's all part of your holiday isn't it, so that's good? ;-)

[laimeduck]

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 10:26 PM

 

Peter James - 2014-01-01 7:37 PM

 

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 7:27 PM

 

Peter James - 2014-01-01 6:36 PM

 

You shouldn't ask the question if you don't want to know the answer

 

You're right of course, I shouldn't have asked, especially when you chose to embellish your answer with tales of your very odd sanitary arrangements. Just thinking about what you do has put me off my dinner. Defecating into plastic bags and then carrying it to a dog-poo disposal? Ye gods!

You prefer having it slopping around in your van, hoping it doesn't leak before you can find somewhere to empty it (what sort of a job is that), then re using the same container instead of a fresh plastic bin liner ....... Enjoy your dinner ;-)

 

Now let me think - I can go into my very nice shower room and use my very nice loo, with its sealed container and flushing facility. I can then empty it (it's never leaked once in decades of camping) into a public lavatory, or other disposal point (the loos on the motorway picnic aires are ideal).

 

Or then again, I could squat over a bucket and crap into a plastic bag. I can then keep a plastic bag of sh*t in the motorhome until I find a suitable dog-poo disposal point. I can further enhance this sophisticated motorhoming experience by peeing in a bottle and storing my pee bottle until I find another suitable place to pour it out.

 

Whilst I'm at it I suppose I could also save on water by looking out for a suitable stream to have a quick dip in (after I've broken the ice of course).

 

Yep, I've thought about it! I think I'll stick to the civilised method that I'm already using thanks!

 

But, heh ho! If you enjoy squatting over a bucket, who am I to argue! Having read what you do I'm sure that hundreds of members will be going out buying buckets and ripping out their Thetfords! ;-)

 

By the way, it doesn't slop around in the 'van, haven't you ever you seen a built-in Thetford? They're really good. It does slop around in a sealed holding container, but that's what breaks it up and makes for easy disposal. Add some nice toilet fluid and it there's no horrible smell when you empty it either. I dread to think what your plastic bag contents smell like until you manage to tie the end off! (lol) (lol) (lol) Still, it's all part of your holiday isn't it, so that's good? ;-)

[Guest Peter James]

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 10:26 PM

I can then empty it (it's never leaked once in decades of camping) into a public lavatory, or other disposal point (the loos on the motorway picnic aires are ideal).

........It does slop around in a sealed holding container, but that's what breaks it up and makes for easy disposal. .......

 

but that is not what you said earlier;

 

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 2:01 PM

there are few campsites open, the aires, whilst plentiful, have no water or toilet disposal facilities as they're turned off to prevent freezing.

 

 

So I tried to be helpful by suggesting a hygenic alternative. The dog bins are not turned off to prevent freezing.

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

Peter James - 2014-01-02 12:23 AM

 

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 10:26 PM

I can then empty it (it's never leaked once in decades of camping) into a public lavatory, or other disposal point (the loos on the motorway picnic aires are ideal).

........It does slop around in a sealed holding container, but that's what breaks it up and makes for easy disposal. .......

 

but that is not what you said earlier;

 

Had Enough - 2014-01-01 2:01 PM

there are few campsites open, the aires, whilst plentiful, have no water or toilet disposal facilities as they're turned off to prevent freezing.

 

 

So I tried to be helpful by suggesting a hygenic alternative. The dog bins are not turned off to prevent freezing.

 

 

Thank you, you've actually been very helpful! You've convinced me that my method of using motorways where there are dozens of aires with toilet facilities is the easiest and best method! ;-)

 

Anyway, I've had my fun with you and the image of you squatting over your bucket will give me many hours of pleasure for some time, so I'll leave you to it in this thread from now on, although I'm certain that you'll want to come back for the last word.

 

Apart from which we've once again attracted the attention of the Laime Brain who is very odd. I don't think he likes me as in every thread that I'm in he makes nasty and childish comments from the sidelines without making any positive contribution. Poor chap gets confused between Motorhome Matters and Chatterbox I think! Anyway, must get off, busy day today preparing the 'van for the long run through France and Spain for a trip to Morocco. Lovely and easy toll motorways all the way, with lots of aires to stop, fill up the water tank and empty the loo. That's the life eh? (lol) (lol) (lol)

[Minicamper]

Well, I have had a good chuckle reading these posts over breakfast this morning. Thanks, Guys, made my day!! And hopefully, the OP has had some helpful advice along the way too.

[Mike88]

Peter James's "thinking outside the box" post regarding his toiletry arrangements should be consigned to the Hints and Tips section of this site.