tonyclaire Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Am willing to drive anywhere for advice thanks. Hamble not far from us (if same Hamble). Maybe we could meet after Christmas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Yes that Hamble! - lots to choose from boatbuilder-wise. As Grandad says, Autovan are another option and seem to have a good reputation....I believe they morphed years back out of the old Autohomes set up, so they will be expert on leaks! If you're heading west prior to your trip to Spain and still not sorted, give me a nudge- I'm on the Devon/Cornwall border and I'll take a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sikaflex 512, as for the bloke using silicone sealant, words fail me. (!) I'd be digging out whatever has been put in the roof pod join, a good clean with methalated spirits, followed by a soapy sponge / rag, dry it all with kitchen towel and possibly a hair dryer, and get busy with the Sikaflex, warm the tube up first, and masking tape either side for a neater job, I'll bet you that will sort it. ;-) I had a leaky Heki roof light on one van, it never leaked again though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskers Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I have used Sikaflex in the past but now use Marineflex. www.marinemastics.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 1footinthegrave - 2013-12-23 12:35 AM I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sikaflex 512, as for the bloke using silicone sealant, words fail me. (!) I'd be digging out whatever has been put in the roof pod join, a good clean with methalated spirits, followed by a soapy sponge / rag, dry it all with kitchen towel and possibly a hair dryer, and get busy with the Sikaflex, warm the tube up first, and masking tape either side for a neater job, I'll bet you that will sort it. ;-) I had a leaky Heki roof light on one van, it never leaked again though. Morning all, If I was on a limited I would do the above and every joint on the roof, perhaps £80 for the materials ? good luck anyway. norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 In addition to the joint betwen overcab fairing and aly roof, there is presumably a cover strip between the side wall of the van and the roof. The area where the overcab, the roof, and the side wall meet, is always a dodgy looking joint to me. It is made worse because the actual joint tends to be made between the joint cover strips, and frequently seems to rely almost exclusively on sealant for weatherproofing. As has been said, tracing where water is getting in, as opposed to where it is coming out, is extremely difficult, and usually requires one of two things. First, if you can make up dams on the roof so that you can create controlled puddles, fill these with water, and wait to see whether any comes through. If not, move systematically along the joint making new dams, puddles etc , until you hit paydirt. It is not a quick method, and needs the interior to be dry before you start so that you can tell which is the new water. As you say this area has more or less been wet for a year, I doubt it would yield much information. The second approach is to remove the joint cover strips, clean them of all existing sealant, and re-bed them on new sealant having carefully examined the actual joint and remedied any defects in these, much as 1foot says. This, too, will be slow, and above all will require the van to be in a dry place where any duff joints can be opened up and allowed to dry out. If the sealant used is a modified polyeurethane type, which is quite likely, you will have considerable difficulty getting things apart and cleaning off the old sealant as these are basically a synthetic rubber that sticks better than the proverbial, and stretches to about 5 times its original length before it merely snaps. As you have said this leak has persisted for about a year, you will, IMO, in any case need to get the van under cover for repairs, so that the structure can dry out and any further water damage/rot be treated. Re-sealing with wet materials still present will not be a good idea. If you intend to DIY, you will probably need to find a barn or similar in which you can park while you work. You will also need to allocate considerable time for this. If at all possible, I'd be inclined to get it done professionally, whether by a boat builder/repairer or a caravan repair specialist. I doubt either route will be cheap. Trying to slap more sealant on top of what is already there may work in the short term, but if intending to spend extended periods living in the van I don't think will be reliable in the longer term. What I am saying, I'm afread, is I don't think there is a quick, cheap, fix for this problem unless you get lucky early on - and you seem to have pretty well exhausted the "get lucky early on" route already. Bad news, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Hi, Sorry to hear of your leaking roof problems. We have lived with an identical problem for years, and we have heard of many instances, as we have met other Burstner owners. Initially it is bad design, and a problem that repairers don't seem to be able to "bottom". We have had several repairs, (re- sealed) , which have turned out to be short lived. In desperation, I have resorted to DIY. The latest solution is using a "flashing band" (available at Toolstation) product to cover the entire strip on the top of the van. This has worked for over 18 months and although not elegant, being black in colour and made up of a black bitumen "goo", but it works.There is a product, mentioned in the CC. mag. called "Rooflock" which can be obtained on line and is available in White, although this is a lot more expensive. I intend to replace my seal with this product in the (SUMMER ??? ) when it's hot and dry ( remember that ??) I am more confident in this repair than just paying for new sealant to be pumped in, only for it to leak, 6 months down the line. The worry is the damage caused by repeated leaks, as well as the frustration. Rather have it dry, never mind what it looks like on the top of the van. Best of luck, what ever you decide to do. A shame really as the Burstner vans are excellent in most departments. Regards, Thomas. And Happy Christmas to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyclaire Posted December 24, 2013 Author Share Posted December 24, 2013 Thanks all. Am going to speak to Autovan after the holidays. Hopefully there is no major damage. Have had it parked front end raised and roof lining has dried out in less than two days.. Not sure how much construction material there is in 57 plate Burstner that could rot over time, at mo the only evidence of the leak are the brown tide marks on the lining. Thanks again for your help. Have a great Christmas and Happy New Year! Feliz Navidad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughmer Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Have you spoken to Burstner in Germany? My previous van was a T610 and in 2001, when there were no English agents, I found B's tech assistance very forthcoming. I daresay they know about this problem and might suggest a likely point of ingress. My current van is a Hymer and it also developed a leak at 11 years old. I was similarly tearing out hair trying to pinpoint the spot, including damming areas of the roof like Brian K suggested, but to no avail. My solution was to divert our return from Italy, leave the van at Hymer in Bad Waldsee and get them to fix it. Hymer knew exactly what was wrong and how to deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyclaire Posted December 25, 2013 Author Share Posted December 25, 2013 Hi Hughmer I did contact Burstner UK and got a short email suggesting it was simply a reseal job. I am wondering if the construction of the interior fittings is playing a part. The leak occurs directly above an upright section of cupboard side wedged very tightly between floor and roof. Knowing how all wood (even chipboard) can swell added to the general stresses when driving could this be repeatedly forcing the join between cab and flat roof open by a fraction. This could explain why others having had the join resealed suffered the same prob at a later stage. Would be interested to know if others with leaks at the join between roofs had an upright section of interior fitting nearby. Just a theory but not many hair strands left to pull out! Hope all had a good day with no flooding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughmer Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Regarding this tight fitting upright.. you shouldn't be surprised to find this.. It's the way vans are made. The internals are built first, wiring water gas services installed etc. The external skin is put on afterwards, so it's going to fit tightly to all the internal parts. .. I mean , it should! Just thinking about the substance of the ply/particle board used in constructing internals, do you think it's really strong enough to push the roof up/off? My own experience has been that If this stuff gets wet it does swell but I think it's more likely to deform itself rather than the roof. Re Burstner UK. .. They will be a franchise and my money would be on the parent firm in Germany possessing a greater depth of knowledge regarding the design flaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Not an expert view but based on experience of working with wood on boats and motorhomes over many years, I take the view that given how flimsy any coachbuilt body shell is by itself rigid sections of built in furniture that reduce body flexing are absolutely necessary and that any weakening of those vertical panels where they meet either floor or ceiling is more likely to allow excess body movement - which would seem to me to be the most reasonable cause of the sealant between panel joints failing? Chipboard does swell when it gets wet but it also disintegrates under load and possibly the same thing happens to the lightweight softwood plywood which is widely used ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Hughmer - 2013-12-27 9:20 AM...............Re Burstner UK. .. They will be a franchise and my money would be on the parent firm in Germany possessing a greater depth of knowledge regarding the design flaws. Burstner UK is a small office owned and staffed by Burstner: not a franchise. At least they were a couple of years back, when I last contacted them. Best person to contact, because he is very familiar with the factory, is Ian Knowles. Phone: 01388 537960. Address: PO Box 164, Bishop Auckland, Co Durham, DL13 1WZ. I fuound that E-mails sent direct to Kehl tended to be referred back to the UK office to answer. However, their main function is dealer co-ordination, not technical. Nevertheless, Ian Knowles is a helpful chap. My suggestion would be to phone and explain your problem, rather than trying to put it into an e-mail. He may then be able to suggest who to contact at Kehl, and /or how best to proceed. The Burstner factory at Kehl in only just across the Rhine from Strasbourg, and has an extremely well regarded customer service centre. I don't know if there is an age at which they cease dealing with buyers' problems, but it certainly extends for the duration of the water ingress warranty, within which they will definitely take on repair jobs. So, in principle, I can't see why they should not take on repairs outside the warranty. It may be they they won't, due to limitations on space versus demand. However, if at all possible that would be my preferred destination for your repair, even if it might not be the cheapest. If they will take on the work, I'd do as suggested above in the short term, and put a waterproof tape over that joint lapping it slightly over onto the side walls as well. Strasbourg is an easy run from Calais, and you would undoubtedly get the best available repair at the factory. If there have been other instances of this problem, as seems the case, they may by now know exactly where the problem lies. Others, on the whole, will not. AFAIK, the roof is a timber framed sandwich panel with ply under the aluminium skin. Water ingress to the interior will inevitably have tracked through this construction, and the timber framing, probably also the ply (depending a bit on what grade was used), and the interior boarding behind the foam backed lining material, will all have got wet to some extent. It is likely that the discolouration you are seeing at the site of the leak is due to tannin or similar being leached from the wood. Moisture in enclosed spaces, such as within sandwich panels, leads to very high humidity levels in which, if present (highly likely), fungal spores will germinate to generate rot. I can only urge you to treat this as now being in urgent need of resolution. As hughmer has said, vans are built from the floor up, with furniture and fittings going in first, then side/rear walls as pre-fabricated panels, then roof as another pre-fabricated panel, and finally the overcab fairing which is almost invariably a GRP moulding. They are basically screwed together, with vertical joints between the elements formed onto cover-strips that are pulled tight onto sealant beds as they are tightened into place from inside. Walls are screwed to the roof panel. The joints then concealed beneath an aluminium extrusion, screwed down from outside onto sealant bedding. Burstners of your generation generally seem to have had a very simple roof to rear wall joint that is formed on the rear wall by curving an extended roof sheet over and onto the rear wall, so that the joint is on the vertical plane in the rear wall, rather than in the roof. That leaves the more complex joint where the side walls meet the overcab fairing, and the fairing meets the flat aluminium roof. This joint would appear to be at the seat of your problem, but there should be two lines of defence. First the fairing should be brought down onto the aluminium roof sheet, sealant bedded, and then screwed down onto it, and the resulting crude lap joint then covered with a cover strip that itself is sealant bedded and screwed down to conceal that lap. As these screws are driven through the fresh sealant, they should themselves be sealed against water ingress as the sealant cures. However, screwing things through flat roofs, inevitably involving penetrations of the waterproofing layer is, IMO, plain perverse! Yes, I know they almost all do it, but it is not necessary, and good design could eliminate the need to do so. However, you are where you are, and you need to act quickly to stop this ingress before the problem grows out of control. Good luck, and do try to contact Ian Knowles as soon as Burstner UK comes out of Christmas "hiberhation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-12-27 4:58 PM AFAIK, the roof is a timber framed sandwich panel with ply under the aluminium skin. Water ingress to the interior will inevitably have tracked through this construction, and the timber framing, probably also the ply (depending a bit on what grade was used), and the interior boarding behind the foam backed lining material, will all have got wet to some extent. It is likely that the discolouration you are seeing at the site of the leak is due to tannin or similar being leached from the wood. Moisture in enclosed spaces, such as within sandwich panels, leads to very high humidity levels in which, if present (highly likely), fungal spores will germinate to generate rot. I can only urge you to treat this as now being in urgent need of resolution. The roof may well have a wood framework, but it would be unusual for there to be a layer of ply beneath the outer skin. It would be much more normal to have the outer skin bonded directly to the insulation material (for a Burstner I'd expect this to be "Styrofoam"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-27 6:47 PM..................The roof may well have a wood framework, but it would be unusual for there to be a layer of ply beneath the outer skin. It would be much more normal to have the outer skin bonded directly to the insulation material (for a Burstner I'd expect this to be "Styrofoam"). Working from memory of our first van, Derek, which was a Burstner of smilar (2005) vintage/construction. I'm pretty sure there was ply beneath the aly on ours, as the roof was stated to be suitable for traffic to max 75kg, which would be liable to compress most of the likely insulants, and I'm pretty sure I could see the edge of the ply around the rooflights when I dropped the inner frames to de-bug the insect screens. However, even if the ply is incorrect, there was definitely a softwood frame within the roof panel, and it will be that which is the main concern, as it will almost invariably have been kiln dried to a fairly low moisture content, leaving it prone to absorb moisture quickly, and to swell, probably exacerbating the initial leakage. I hate these roof joints with a vengeance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Well the OP did say "Many thanks for your thoughts" :-S Not sure how they are helping though,Jesus 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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