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It doesn't surprise me...EU Corruption


nowtelse2do

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Guest pelmetman

Wake me up gently :-S............and I thought Fwanky le Ego was a windup merchant.........yet the when it comes to pompous pilots.................... 8-) 8-) 8-)

 

There's far better merchants of the filthy mammon than our Frankie *-)............

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Combine those figures with the fact that the EU 'books' have 'never' been signed off and it beggars belief that the EU is still in existence.  I suspect that in the 'modern history' of mankind there has never been such a massive, widespread case of mismanagement, profligacy and corruption...........oh I nearly forgot....and outright theft!

 

Still they are our lords and masters so they must know what is best for us I suppose because they are highly edjumicated and experienced business/legal/financially capable people aren't they?.........tongue firmly in cheek :-D

 

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Guest pelmetman
RogerC - 2014-02-03 10:32 PMCombine those figures with the fact that the EU 'books' have 'never' been signed off and it beggars belief that the EU is still in existence.  I suspect that in the 'modern history' of mankind there has never been such a massive, widespread case of mismanagement, profligacy and corruption...........oh I nearly forgot....and outright theft!

 

Still they are our lords and masters so they must know what is best for us I suppose because they are highly edjumicated and experienced business/legal/financially capable people aren't they?.........tongue firmly in cheek :-D

Just as well you don't work for you know who Roger ;-)...............or it would have to be between his cheeks 8-)......
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nowtelse2do - 2014-02-03 8:02 PM

 

Clive, the analysis by Chris Morris sums it up nicely.

 

Dave

Yes it does but, IMO, the map provides an even more telling summary.

 

Without commenting on the scale of what is revealed, just look at where the main problems lie. The worst affected countries are those with weak, or fledgling, democracies. They are also those in which, before they adopted democratic governments, fiddling the system was the way to survive. Their governments and police forces were broadly reviled and distrusted, were themselves frequently corrupt, and "getting one over" on authority was a national passtime.

 

Doing the same when the authority is elected by your fellow countrymen is a somewhat different ball game, and intellectually grasping that little difference still evades quite a few inhabitants of even this scepter'd isle. And that, after how many centuries of our continually evolving democracy?

 

So, is it really so surprising that the inhabitants of these widely divergant countries have yet to get there? Most are in a poor financial state nationally, and many of their inhabitants are cripplingly poor. Many are unemployed. Several have a historic legacy of dubious practice in public affairs, and a staggering lack of government transparency. At least one got by for years by making wildly unrealistic promises to its electorate, who collectively joined the conspiracy to benefit personally, careless of the consequences, and who complain bitterly now that the reckoning has been handed to them while the beneficiaries have left, or salted their money out of reach. Are they all supposed to convert overnight to "play up, play up, and play the game" while the rot continues?

 

I'm not excusing the corruption and the fiddling, just suggesting that demands for some kind of Damascene conversion over so short a timescale are unrealistic. Besides all of which, what is corrupt here is not necessarily seen as corrupt elsewhere. There is not even a "one size fits all" definition of corruption within this country. The concepts of the "white" lie, or the "expedient" decision, are widely disputed here, and we have been a supposedly honest, law abiding, country for very much longer than these countries have had anything resembling political stability. I don't condone it, I just think it will take another half century at least before a generation emerges that has a democratic gene to guide its conduct - and even then that gene will vary across what is half a continent.

 

Neither am I arguing that we should just put up with it and wait. We should criticise constructively, cajole, reason, demand better, explain, and lead by example. Since it is the nordic countries that generally set the higher standards, we should work with them to exert pressure on the laggards to catch up. One country alone merely becomes a hostile voice, it needs to come from multiple sources to convince widely.

 

Final point. Among all the doom and gloom, do note that it is one of that most reviled of species, the European Commissioner, who has produced the report, at the request of individual governments and the EU Parliament. So, this is something the EU initiated from within, not something that was foisted on it, and it has been published, not skewered. Small comfort, maybe, but better than a continuing application of "Nelson's eye", I think.

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I'm not excusing the corruption and the fiddling, just suggesting that demands for some kind of Damascene conversion over so short a timescale are unrealistic. Besides all of which, what is corrupt here is not necessarily seen as corrupt elsewhere. There is not even a "one size fits all" definition of corruption within this country. The concepts of the "white" lie, or the "expedient" decision, are widely disputed here, and we have been a supposedly honest, law abiding, country for very much longer than these countries have had anything resembling political stability. I don't condone it, I just think it will take another half century at least before a generation emerges that has a democratic gene to guide its conduct - and even then that gene will vary across what is half a continent.

 

 

Brian to me you have presented a great case for leaving tje eu, the politicos want expand intto east europe &the balkens plus turkey hardly the most democractic countrys, imo will be like the eurovision song contest, controlled by ex soviet countries

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Guest pelmetman

Completely agree ;-)..............The EU was doomed to fail from day one *-)..............

 

Cooperation not Corporation is the way forward B-)........

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The EU as a trading block would be an excellent concept - and this is what it was always supposed to be.

 

Unfortunately that simple and effective concept has been overly politicised in the drive for a United States of Europe. A political folly that was certainly doomed to failure.

 

Co-operation is certainly the key.

 

Monetary Union was a very bad idea indeed. Its effect on some countries has been devastating - the social cost is such that a whole new generation is now very anti EU and anti Euro.

 

Youth unemployment in places like Italy means the knock on effect of the disaster that is the Euro will be with us for some time - breeding yet more anger and discontent with the interference of the EU in a countries overall wellbeing.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-27/euro-jobless-record-seen-in-legacy-of-italians-giving-up.html

 

 

 

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bigal55 - 2014-02-07 8:58 PM..............

Brian to me you have presented a great case for leaving tje eu, the politicos want expand intto east europe &the balkens plus turkey hardly the most democractic countrys, imo will be like the eurovision song contest, controlled by ex soviet countries

IMO we made a wrong turn when it was decided to widen, and not deepen, the EEC. It was a policy much driven by the UK Conservative party with, it seemed to me at the time, strong support from the US who should have kept their noses out. Their motivatuon seemed to be a fear of the consequences of all those newly liberated ex-eastern bloc countries not being "tied" into western attitudes, so potentially beginning to quarrel among themselves a la Balkan states after the collapse of Yugoslavia. In the end, the "wideners" won the debate, with the results we now see.

 

Even then the Euro was a project waiting to be realised, and that desire drove the pressure for a number of unsuitable states to join that once launched.

 

I felt then, and still feel, that the better solution would have been an Eastern European Union, formed of the ex Warsaw Pact countries, with assistance from the EEC, to develop their economies and political systems to the point at which, in due course, if that was what was then wanted, the two could amalgamate. The Core EEC could than have introduced a sound Euro and got on with whatever deepening was wanted.

 

But, we are where we are, and I remain of the view that for a number of reasons, not all economic, we should not leave the EU, but should remain members and work to sort it out so that it does things better. It will take time, and it will require more application that most UK governments give it, but overall, IMO, that represents the greatset good for the greatest number. Backing out of things because the going gets a bit rough seldom yields good long-term results. The timescale for payback is over decades, not one UK parliament.

 

Most of our collective problems stem from the 2007/8 financial crash, and the decisions made by politicians surrounding that, particularly beforehand. If we left the EU we should still have the same political players running the UK (whatever that is destined to be), and I see no prospect of them suddenly being imbued with great wisdom as a consequence of us leaving.

 

One thing that seems to me always to be forgotten is that the UK Government has been involved in every Directive and Treaty that has emanated from Brussels since we joined. We are not that different to the rest of Europe, so special pleadings about our unique qualities hold no water with me. If we had made the right cases, in the right way, instead of hectoring, lecturing, and at times shrieking about how we were right and the rest wrong, we should have played a far more constructive role and carried far more influence.

 

Nothing, other than ourselves, prevents us gaining as much economic benefit from membership of the EU as does Germany. We just need to stop posturing, have the modesty to learn from others, and get on with it, instead of endlessly standing on the sidelines and carping. If we just did that we should gain hands down. If we leave with our present attitudes to the rest of the world, we shall fare no better outside the EU that we do in it. Our problem is not the EU, it is us.

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CliveH - 2014-02-08 10:23 AM...............Youth unemployment in places like Italy means the knock on effect of the disaster that is the Euro will be with us for some time - breeding yet more anger and discontent with the interference of the EU in a countries overall wellbeing..............

I appreciate that you are illustrating a point, Clive, but you are surely not claiming Italy's economic misfortunes are solely due to the Euro? Does Italy's political system and the politicians it spawns really have nothing to answer for? Was Berlusconi really such a force for good? :-)

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Have to disagree Brian - Germany is the power house in Europe and its products are valued because of the quality.

 

For various reason the UK produced product that was often shoddy and badly made.

 

The reason for this are many and varied - BUT one thing we are good at is Financial Services (in its broadest sense - not really what I do) - as a Finance centre London is huge.

 

And just as I am sure germany would - and does - fight EU legislation that would effect its industries - so we here in the UK must protect key sections of our economy.

 

I am amazed that you feel we should "stop posturing" when surely protecting UK interests is what any Government should do?

 

As for "modestly learning from others" - sorry Brian but that was a Tea Splutter Over the Keyboard moment! - with the Eurozone in the mess it is in I hardly think we need to learn anything about their situation other than not to be so ruddy stupid!

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/dec/26/britain-europe-top-economy-by-2030

 

For all our faults - we are getting out of the mess and leaving others behind

 

Growth prediction has been increased to 2.4% from 1.8% for 2014

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/dec/05/uk-economic-growth-upgraded-autumn-statement-2013

 

I think you are being far too negative about our prospects and our stance within Europe.

 

 

 

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Brian Kirby - 2014-02-08 3:27 PM

 

CliveH - 2014-02-08 10:23 AM...............Youth unemployment in places like Italy means the knock on effect of the disaster that is the Euro will be with us for some time - breeding yet more anger and discontent with the interference of the EU in a countries overall wellbeing..............

I appreciate that you are illustrating a point, Clive, but you are surely not claiming Italy's economic misfortunes are solely due to the Euro? Does Italy's political system and the politicians it spawns really have nothing to answer for? Was Berlusconi really such a force for good? :-)

 

If it were just Italy that was having this problem of a lost generation to unemployment then i think you would have a point. As for Italian politicians - worse than ours !

 

But Italy should be a thriving economy - it isn't because of the mess that is the Euro. The same can be said for the entire group of nations that are the PIIGS.

 

The resentment brewing within these nations from they young who see no prospects against the EU is very high indeed.

 

 

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Brian Kirby - 8 February 2014 3:11 PM

 

One thing that seems to me always to be forgotten is that the UK Government has been involved in every Directive and Treaty that has emanated from Brussels since we joined. We are not that different to the rest of Europe, so special pleadings about our unique qualities hold no water with me. If we had made the right cases, in the right way, instead of hectoring, lecturing, and at times shrieking about how we were right and the rest wrong, we should have played a far more constructive role and carried far more influence.

 

Nothing, other than ourselves, prevents us gaining as much economic benefit from membership of the EU as does Germany. We just need to stop posturing, have the modesty to learn from others, and get on with it, instead of endlessly standing on the sidelines and carping. If we just did that we should gain hands down. If we leave with our present attitudes to the rest of the world, we shall fare no better outside the EU that we do in it. Our problem is not the EU, it is us.

 

..................................................................................................

 

 

I think we are different from the rest of Europe, history and the English Channel (should that be The UK Channel) has proved that, it does seems hard to believe seeing that most of our genes are made up of Western Europeans such as the Vikings, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Normans. That narrow strip of water gave these islands an unique independance that most other countries would yearn for and do.

 

As for making the right cases, in the right way, I think we did. A lot of what we were trying to get over and getting fobbed off for is now being recognised by more countries as being sensible language. Even Merkel agrees with a lot of our hectoring, lecturing and shrieking as you put it. We must have been watching different channels Brian because all I saw was calm, firm, diplomatic language ;-)

 

The problem is the EU, not us. It needs change..big change, there are too many different cultures to satisfy and that's the main reason why it will not work in its present form.

 

The one glove fit's all never works.

 

Dave

 

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nowtelse2do - 2014-02-08 6:05 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 8 February 2014 3:11 PM

 

One thing that seems to me always to be forgotten is that the UK Government has been involved in every Directive and Treaty that has emanated from Brussels since we joined. We are not that different to the rest of Europe, so special pleadings about our unique qualities hold no water with me. If we had made the right cases, in the right way, instead of hectoring, lecturing, and at times shrieking about how we were right and the rest wrong, we should have played a far more constructive role and carried far more influence.

 

Nothing, other than ourselves, prevents us gaining as much economic benefit from membership of the EU as does Germany. We just need to stop posturing, have the modesty to learn from others, and get on with it, instead of endlessly standing on the sidelines and carping. If we just did that we should gain hands down. If we leave with our present attitudes to the rest of the world, we shall fare no better outside the EU that we do in it. Our problem is not the EU, it is us.

 

..................................................................................................

 

 

I think we are different from the rest of Europe, history and the English Channel (should that be The UK Channel) has proved that, it does seems hard to believe seeing that most of our genes are made up of Western Europeans such as the Vikings, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Normans. That narrow strip of water gave these islands an unique independance that most other countries would yearn for and do.

 

As for making the right cases, in the right way, I think we did. A lot of what we were trying to get over and getting fobbed off for is now being recognised by more countries as being sensible language. Even Merkel agrees with a lot of our hectoring, lecturing and shrieking as you put it. We must have been watching different channels Brian because all I saw was calm, firm, diplomatic language ;-)

 

The problem is the EU, not us. It needs change..big change, there are too many different cultures to satisfy and that's the main reason why it will not work in its present form.

 

Dave

 

Too many different cultures to satisfy , sounds like the streets of Britain to me David and we know from experience that all those different cultures get on just nicely don't they ?

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Guest pelmetman
antony1969 - 2014-02-08 6:10 PM

 

The problem is the EU, not us. It needs change..big change, there are too many different cultures to satisfy and that's the main reason why it will not work in its present form.

 

Dave

 

Too many different cultures to satisfy , sounds like the streets of Britain to me David and we know from experience that all those different cultures get on just nicely don't they ?

 

Your not agreeing with that Lancastrian fellow are you Antony? 8-).............Although you have a point 8-)........................we need to get on with our neighbours..............but it takes time *-).........so being flooded by Johnny foreigner is clearly not the recipe for harmony :-|

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CliveH - 2014-02-08 3:37 PM

 

Have to disagree Brian - Germany is the power house in Europe and its products are valued because of the quality.

 

For various reason the UK produced product that was often shoddy and badly made.................

But that was my point, Clive. Whose fault is it that we took that approach? Not the EU!

 

We need to gain back the reputation for manufacturing quality that we once had, and still have in a few specialist pockets. No-one stops us doing this, but us. We'll never get the highly paid employment we need, on the scale we need, from financial services alone, important though they are. Different labour markets, with different aptitudes, need different types of employment.

 

I didn't think I was being negative, I thought I was being positive - about the EU! Can't win them all, can one? :-)

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