colin Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Well i've lost one of my data cables so not having a photo editor capable of reducing photo's on the phone I've had to learn how to bluetooth photo's to my laptop, so it's taken some time to get this sorted. Here's both headlights, you can see the top arrow indicates the side of van they are fitted and the bottom arrow indicates the dipping pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxautotrail Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 colin - 2014-02-21 7:08 PM Well i've lost one of my data cables so not having a photo editor capable of reducing photo's on the phone I've had to learn how to bluetooth photo's to my laptop, so it's taken some time to get this sorted. Here's both headlights, you can see the top arrow indicates the side of van they are fitted and the bottom arrow indicates the dipping pattern. Many thanks. That is identical to mine. So it was a UK headlight after all! >:-( >:-( >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Just a thought. By refusing to buy another FIAT because they were a bit suspicious about a second hand light unit, and were right all along, you will be limiting your choices to about 5% of available MH's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Billggski - 2014-02-22 9:34 AM Just a thought. By refusing to buy another FIAT because they were a bit suspicious about a second hand light unit, and were right all along, you will be limiting your choices to about 5% of available MH's. From my reading of posts MOT was done at a Fiat dealership, I've had dealings with 4 Fiat garages, only one of which I would willingly return to, and that ones 70 miles away. There is possibly another explanation, the headlamp may be wrongly manufactured, a RHD lens on a LHD reflector? if this is possible, but it would still be Fiats shout, although as Eddie points out technicaly it's whoever the van was purchased from that the contract is with, assuming it was a dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 As Brian Kirby said earlier, there have been other reports of Ducatos with 'unmatched' headlamps that show up when the motorhome is MOT tested. There's an example here http://tinyurl.com/o32ryul It's impossible to tell easily whether the lights of my Transit-based Hobby and Skoda car dip left or right. Both carry some manufacturing information moulded into the light-unit, but the significant marking that shows which way the light dips is on a stick-on label. Now, while it seems to be conclusive from the marking in the clear plastic of Keith's light (which matches the marking on Colin's light) that Keith's headlamp-unit should dip left (ie. the headlamp is intended for 'left-hand traffic' as in the UK), the marking does not PROVE that the headlamp dips left. The X250 Ducato headlamp uses a single-filament H7 bulb for its dipped beam and the direction and shape of the dipped beam pattern depends on the reflector. This raises the possibility that Keith's headlamp has the reflector that produces a right-dipping pattern, rather than the reflector that produces the left-dipping pattern that the marking in the plastic indicates it should have. As Brian also said, it should be obvious when headlamps are aimed at a wall after dark, whether their dipped-beam pattern is UK-specification (with a 'kick-up' on the left) or 'Continental'-specification (with a kick-up on the right). So it's hard to see how a 'right-dipping' light could have been missed when Keith's motorhome was MOT-tested on the first two occasions. On the other hand, it's odd that, at the 3rd MOT, the tester should have stated that Keith's motorhome had a 'wrong' headlamp if it did not. If my vehicle had failed its MOT test because one of its headlights was 'wrong', but had passed its MOT-test twice before without this being noticed, I would have demanded that the headlight's 'incorrect' beam pattern be demonstrated to me. Given the background, the only way to be certain which way Keith's light-unit dips would be to put a bulb in it and check the resultant pattern. (This largely repeats what Colin has suggested - it just took me a lot longer to type!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 A further possibility is that a bulb was changed, but the replacement was incorrectly seated. This plays havoc with the beam. I suppose the lamp may also have merely been misaligned. I'm also a bit puzzled by the "won't buy another Fiat" comment. It seems, on the face of it, that the lamp was correctly coded, so is probably to the correct UK spec. That being the case, the fault would lie with the garage that carried out the MoT, identified the lamp as being to European spec, and falsely charged for replacing it. I'd get that lamp verified, as suggested above, by connecting it to power, to see which way it dips. All lamps should be present, these units come out of the box fully lamped. I'd next check the seating of the main/dip beam lamp. I'd then take the headlamp, and the work receipt, back to the garage and demand a full refund. I'd do this even if the headlamp proves to have been badly seated, as that should have been checked before assuming the lamp is to Euro spec. It is not that uncommon a fault. If they refused, I think I'd then consider the small claims procedure. Replacement lamps aren't cheap, plus there will have been a labour charge, plus probably a re-test charge, so quite a high bill for what, on the face of it, was completely unnecessary work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It might be best for Keith to take the headlamp to the Fiat dealership that arranged for the MOT, explain that his now-sold motorhome was failed at its last MOT-test on the basis that this headlamp was 'Continental' specification, point out that the headlamp's marking indicates otherwise and ask if they will check the dipped-beam pattern as he needs to be certain which type of headlamp it is before offering it for sale. (He could mention that there's speculation that the light might have the correct outer markings for a UK-specification headlamp, but have the 'wrong' internal reflector. This might interest a Fiat dealership.) If it turned out that the light was a 'rogue', then the MOT-testing station was right to fail the vehicle. If it turned out that the light was to correct UK-specification, I'm not sure how realistic it would be for Keith to proceed against the MOT-testing station and/or Fiat dealership. There's no way of linking a particular headlamp-unit to a particular vehicle, so no way for Keith to prove that the headlamp he has came off his Auto-Trail motorhome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 On the first para that is probably the best idea, since the headlamp connector is a complex milti-pin socket that would otherwise make it difficult to pick up the correct connections. Based on what has been revealed so far, I'm assuming that the headlamp Keith presently has is to UK spec. This, of course, yet to be established, but the evidence seems to point that way, and such explanations as mis-matched markings and reflector type, while possible, seem diminishingly probable to me. As Keith has the headlamp, I assume the dealer who (presumably) fitted the replacement lamp must have handed it to him. He should also have the invoice for the work to fit the replacement, so can presumably prove what work was done, and by whom. He should also have the receipt and notice of failure for the MoT, and I assume for the eventual re-test. So, in effect, he should also be able to prove why it was replaced. I am interpreting Keith as implying that the MoT was carried out by the same dealership as replaced the headlamp. (If not, one might reasonably have expected the Fiat dealership to have checked before proceeding. They all have to have headlamp alignment testing equipment.) He cannot, of course, prove that the lamp he now has was the one actually removed, but it would surely be a very odd person indeed who, having been handed the original headlamp, went out and bought a UK spec lamp for the sole purpose of getting back the cost of the one fitted? Not watertight, I accept, but I'd have thought sufficiently persuasive for the garage to take seriously his claim for a refund and, if they refused, sufficient to take the garage through the small claims procedure with reasonable chance of success. It is not that expensive to do this for either party, so if the case were to fail, no-one would be badly out of pocket. This is of course a matter for Keith as to of how cheated he feels (assuming that further testing shows that he was), and how far he is prepared to pursue redress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxautotrail Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Many thanks everyone for your efforts and advice. The reason I made the comment about "not buying another FIAT" was caused by the seemingly constant problems we experienced with our FIAT/AUTOTRAIL vehicle. They ranged from front wheel bearing failure after 3 years, through engine management problems and clutch failure in 2012 after 20,000 miles plus other problems. This headlight issue was the last straw. We have now sold the vehicle and I hope that the new owner has better luck with it than we did. We live some miles away from the nearest FIAT Professional dealership and I am going to be contacting by letter them to see what they have to say about what I have now found. I take the point that there could be certain problems with the unit and will see what the dealer who carried out the MOT and repair is prepared to do. Again thanks to everyone who helped. Kind regards Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Another item that could have caused the MOT fail is if the bulbs had been replaced with high brightness bulbs these are know to to give poor beam patterns, I have even know Osram Nightbreakers which are the best quality high brightness bulbs give a poor beam pattern in some reflectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 maxautotrail - 2014-02-22 4:33 PM ...We live some miles away from the nearest FIAT Professional dealership and I am going to be contacting by letter them to see what they have to say about what I have now found. Forgive me, but I don't believe you've "found" anything so far. Your motorhome failed its MOT-test because the tester said that it had a headlamp that produced a 'right-hand traffic' dipped-beam pattern. This is a valid reason for rejection as explained here http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_180.htm Although it's possible for a headlamp's dipped-beam pattern to be affected by the bulb not being properly seated, the light-unit being maladjusted or non-standard bulbs having been fitted, it should be straightforward (for a layman, let alone a professiona MOT-tester) to diagnose whether a headlamp's dipped-beam pattern is UK- or Continental-specification. The MOT-tester claimed that one of your motorhome's headlamps was Continental-specification. There have been reports of other RHD Ducato-based motorhomes being factory-fitted with a right-dipping Continental-specification headlamp and that this has been noticed only at the MOT-testing stage. When this has happened the motorhome's owner appears to have always accepted the tester's diagnosis and the 'wrong' headlamp was replaced. I've not seen any mention of the motorhome owner challenging that diagnosis and it being demonstrated to him/her that the headlamp was 'wrong'. This seems to be the first instance when it's been suggested that a headlamp that ostensibly (from the markings on it) is UK-specification may have an internal reflector that produces a Continental-specification dipped-beam pattern. If the headlamp removed from your motorhome produces a Continental-specification dipped-beam pattern, then you've no grounds to complain to the Fiat dealership. If it produces a UK-specification dipped-beam pattern, even if any of the other possibilities (bulb improperly-seated, etc.) were true, the MOT-tester's diagnosis was still incorrect and there was no need to replace the headlamp. Assuming that you want to try to get the Fiat dealership to cough up some money, you'll need to take a very judicious approach. If you can establish that your headlamp is exactly as its markings suggest - a left-dipping UK-spec unit - it would be reasonable to interrogate the dealership about the MOT-test failure. But, until you can be certain what your headlamp's dipped-beam pattern looks like, your position is weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elamessa Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 colin - 2014-02-21 8:08 PM Well i've lost one of my data cables so not having a photo editor capable of reducing photo's on the phone I've had to learn how to bluetooth photo's to my laptop, so it's taken some time to get this sorted. Here's both headlights, you can see the top arrow indicates the side of van they are fitted and the bottom arrow indicates the dipping pattern. Exactly the same as on my LHD French registered motorhome, so it appears that the bottom arrow does not indicate beam pattern as mine definately has right kick up. The plot thickens. Dont know what happened to the pictures that were attached to Colin's post that I quoted.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I haven't forgot about you. Was looking at lamps today wondering what other part numbers might indicate left or right hand dipping, when the blindingly obvious came to mind, the reflectors. Sorry about quality of pics they have a very strong reflection of sky, but I think it's easy to see that on both headlights the righthand side has vertical 'bands', whilst the lefthand side is mainly just two sections with a horizontal line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristol170kj Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 colin - 2014-02-26 8:30 PM I haven't forgot about you. Was looking at lamps today wondering what other part numbers might indicate left or right hand dipping, when the blindingly obvious came to mind, the reflectors. Sorry about quality of pics they have a very strong reflection of sky, but I think it's easy to see that on both headlights the righthand side has vertical 'bands', whilst the lefthand side is mainly just two sections with a horizontal line. Thank you - that was very useful. Comparing your photos to my headlight shows my vertical lines on the lens as being on the opposite side. Mine looks to be a mirror image to yours. So I'm 99% sure mine is a foreign headlight. Thanks again. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristol170kj Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 bristol170kj - 2014-03-03 9:10 AM colin - 2014-02-26 8:30 PM I haven't forgot about you. Was looking at lamps today wondering what other part numbers might indicate left or right hand dipping, when the blindingly obvious came to mind, the reflectors. Sorry about quality of pics they have a very strong reflection of sky, but I think it's easy to see that on both headlights the righthand side has vertical 'bands', whilst the lefthand side is mainly just two sections with a horizontal line. Thank you - that was very useful. Comparing your photos to my headlight shows my vertical lines on the lens as being on the opposite side. Mine looks to be a mirror image to yours. So I'm 99% sure mine is a foreign headlight. Thanks again. Regards PS - changed my login name as I don't have an Autotrail any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Self explanatory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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