Tim Knight Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I live in the UK, and have a UK-based question which I would like to 'post' to this forum for advice. There is at least one thread(?) on this forum which discusses the legality of having a monitor system viewable by the driver of a vehicle. They focus on the difference between a monitor fitted/used as part of a driving/navigating/manoeuvring aid (legal) as opposed to a monitor fitted/used to display 'diversions' from driving/navigating/manoeuvring (illegal). I would like to raise a different question. If I have 3 external rear-view cameras (2 fitted to the outside of the front bumper, and 1 fitted to the centre of the rear bumper), each connected to a dedicated monitor installed in a row across the base of the windscreen (but not interfering with forward vision), would it be legal to remove the three normal rear-view mirrors? If so, I would be able to save 18 inches from the overall width of a VW T5 campervan, and to block the line of mirror-sight through the centre of the vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 If you look at the the construction & use regulations it looks like external mirrors are required, regulation 33 covers mirrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh999 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Yep. You must have one mirror on the offside and one either internal OR near side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-03-03 5:36 PM If you look at the the construction & use regulations it looks like external mirrors are required, regulation 33 covers mirrors. would have thought that obvious..and as for relying on a camera hardly reliable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Brown Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Not sure why that should be obvious, ;nevertheless, whilst the con and use regs require mirrors as described above lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The idea of three cameras placed to provide the same or better cover than two mirrors should not be dismissed out of hand. I use my reversing camera as rear view mirror and it works very well. If memory serves it is necessary to have the required mirrors but do they have to be available to see with. I think the regs state they must be fitted. What if they were turned in . Now someone is going to come on and mention the fact that the driver cannot watch TV but there are exceptions, one of which is in the interests of safety. In other words if the camera provides a view which assists the driver in safer driving then it is acceptable to have a monitor capable of being viewed by the driver. At the present moment in time you cannot replace the mirrors with cameras but you should study the Construction and Use Regs (con and use) to see if mirrors have to be always positioned to provide a rear view. If not then you can use your idea with the mirrors folded. Apols for not being definitive but my knowledge of regulations ceased a few years ago and I have no wish to revisit Law and Order. I am retired. Hope this helps. Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Arthur Brown - 2014-03-03 9:22 PM At the present moment in time you cannot replace the mirrors with cameras but you should study the Construction and Use Regs (con and use) to see if mirrors have to be always positioned to provide a rear view. If not then you can use your idea with the mirrors folded. Art Construction and Use Regulation 33 ( 7 ii ) says the mirror should be in a position to enable the driver to see traffic that is rearwards of his own vehicle. That would seem to rule out folded mirrors. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliB Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Be aware that there is always a slight delay in displaying a camera image. Never a problem at manoeuvering speeds but more an issue at motorway speeds. I would say it would be positively dangerous not to have wing mirrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 AliB - 2014-03-04 9:25 AM Be aware that there is always a slight delay in displaying a camera image. Never a problem at maneuvering speeds but more an issue at motorway speeds. I would say it would be positively dangerous not to have wing mirrors. Agree... I have the Waeco reversing/rear view camera set up on my new van (picked up last week) and you wonder how you have managed without one.... but still use the mirrors! not only that would rather slap or loose a mirror then side swipe the van! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Tim Knight - 2014-03-03 5:19 PM and to block the line of mirror-sight through the centre of the vehicle. If you have two outside mirrors you can block the view from internal mirror, many vans (mine included) have no internal mirror, but I keep thinking that a parking camera would make life easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-03-04 10:01 AM not only that would rather slap or loose a mirror then side swipe the van! *-) Those were my first thoughts. Added to that you are very unlikely to drive down a road that is narrower than the width of the with mirrors, says he who drove down a lane in Ireland with both mirrors rubbing in the hedgerows. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Apart from what the regs say if you don't have side mirrors you will have a dangerous blind spot on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Regulations will often lag behind technical advances and (although illegal in the UK at present) replacing the traditional exterior mirrors with cameras may become permissible in the not too distant future. In the USA the TESLA car maker has been pushing for a camera-based system to be legalised and (as it says in this article) http://www.carscoops.com/2013/08/tesla-wants-to-discard-side-mirrors.html VW's XL1 model dispenses with exterior mirrors to reduce drag. http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/about-us/futures/xl1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-03-04 11:15 AM..................says he who drove down a lane in Ireland with both mirrors rubbing in the hedgerows. (lol) I know the feeling, Lenny! :$ However, the other point of the OP's post is the proposed mounting height. Cameras in front or rear bumpers will be at maximum crud level, so quickly plastered and hardly useful after a few wet yards, will be down among the spray, so uesless for overtaking on wet days, and will mainly be of use for ANPR purposes when it is dry! The cameras would need to be mounted high, not low, when they might prove very good indeed, and would be above dazzle level at night. But reliablility is still, IMO, the potential drawback of the idea. If a manufacturer commissions an installation he can control the specification of the CCD in the cameras and the image quality of the monitors, and can incorporate both into the bodywork and cab neatly and unobtrusively. Trying to get the mix of lens angle, camera quality and waterproofing, and monitor compatibility and image quality, plus tolerance of operating temperatures and humidities by "shopping around" seems to me very unlikely to yield satisfactory results. If anyone does this, I'd reccommend they don't saw off the existing mirrors for a while, just in case! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Most MH, RV's and PVC are between 16' and 35' If your camera is on the rear how would you know what is at the side of you if you had no mirror? None goer I think Tim. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-03-04 1:49 PM Regulations will often lag behind technical advances and (although illegal in the UK at present) replacing the traditional exterior mirrors with cameras may become permissible in the not too distant future. In the USA the TESLA car maker has been pushing for a camera-based system to be legalised and (as it says in this article) http://www.carscoops.com/2013/08/tesla-wants-to-discard-side-mirrors.html VW's XL1 model dispenses with exterior mirrors to reduce drag. http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/about-us/futures/xl1 And I see from the press pack that it still has door mirrors, albeit camera based. I hope they learned from the mistake of the 1982 Audi 100 which had the lowest drag coefficient at the time but one thing they did to achieve that was to move the ventilation air intakes to the location which gave minimum drag. The result was that the ventilation was hopeless and you needed to drive with the window open, which did wonders for the drag coefficient. Vorsprung durch Technik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Depends how much of your life you want to spend arguing the toss when it comes to MOT time discussing that the rules don't apply in this case! Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Brown Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Hi I see Nissan have announced that they are currently trialling a rear view camera for one of their cars. Mounted high on the back with the monitor in the internal rear view mirror. They hope to have it in production cars by 2016. Interesting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildi Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 To me this seems like a sledge hammer to crack a nut, but each to their own. We have a large CB with no rear view so I fitted a twin camera, one to reverse and the other is rear view and on during driving with a 7" monitor. I don't think I would want three if these in the van. Interesting point was that my car just went for it's first MOT, I just had a operation and was not allowed to drive, Toyota collected it, did the service and failed the MOT as I had not removed the cradle for the satnav or the tyre pressure monitor. Not sure why the jobsworth didn't just unclip them if they new it would be in the way before they did the MOT , they then unclipped them and then passed it. The satnav cradle I could understand (I keep this as much out of my line of sight as I can) but the tyre pressure monitor was actually behind the dealers service sticker? Would the poster have to remove all the monitors before it went for it's MOT? If it is an MOT fail to have satnav / monitor on the windscreen does that mean it is illegal to drive like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildi Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Arthur Brown - 2014-03-18 9:04 PM Hi I see Nissan have announced that they are currently trialling a rear view camera for one of their cars. Mounted high on the back with the monitor in the internal rear view mirror. They hope to have it in production cars by 2016. Interesting!! These have been around for years as aftermarket fit :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Don't do cameras of any type. I have two good eyes and fair imagination. If someone accidentally damages one of your low down cameras I presume you loose vision on all of them, then what ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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