arjxh56 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Hi all, Anyone had a scenario whereby the check transmission light comes on, the gearbox doesn't respond as it should, limits to 1st, 2nd and reverse (max 2000rpm) and won't reset even with Fiats diagnostic machine? The fault code shows a particular sensor on the gearbox, but the sensor was changed and the codes still won't clear. The gearbox won't respond to the laptop request to re calibrate itself, just says "waiting" and it won't reset the dash warning either? I have left the van with Northern commercials in Brighouse, hope they are top notch and find/fix the fault quickly, I am worried this could be costly! They spent an hour with the diagnostic machine and changing sensors etc but they were left scratching heads and saying it needs further investigation. The main guy I spoke to, Phil, service manager was really helpful and excellent in trying to squeeze me in for a quick fix but they are extremely busy. Anyone used them? Anyone any ideas what this may be? Help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I'm pretty sure that the only forum-member able to give you informed advice about this would be Nick Fisher (euroserv). A GOOGLE-search on "Comfortmatic problems" retrieves some material. This long 2011 MotorHomeFacts thread for example: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-102455-intermittent-power-loss-3-ltr-fiat-comfortmatic-gearbox.html Your motorhome is currently in the hands of professionals who have the necessary equipment to interrogate the transmission's electronics and investigate the fault. As they are clearly having trouble diagnosing the cause, it could well be that the fault is peculiar to your vehicle. If you look at the final posting on Page 9 of the MHF thread you'll see how elusive a fault can sometimes be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hello, Sorry to hear about your problem. I have just read the article on MHF and it bothers me a lot that with no indication of a gearbox fault at all; Fiat decided to fit a complete new box! We have had absolutely no problems with ours and three of them have gone on to pastures new with over 100,000 miles on them. Mine is still only on about 6000 miles and won't do many miles each year while doing the work that it does, supporting charity events. I am quite convinced that the problems that have been mentioned are going to be wiring issues or a hydraulic actuator. If a sensor is at fault it will flag up a warning BEFORE any failure occurs. If it's hydraulic it will flag a fault DURING an operation that has failed to complete. If it's wiring; it will give false warnings and possibly go into safe mode but will not get far enough to prevent an operation from completing unless the wiring fault happens during the operation. Does that make sense? We were warned that the required change of hydraulic oil at 2 years causes more problems (difficult to fill and bleed) and is better not done at all; so we didn't. We applied the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' methodology and got away with it. Nick I am sure that the dealer will find your problem in the wiring somewhere. The ECU cannot over-ride a fault that is still present and if the sensors are all fine this must be a wiring issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Latest update is that northern commercials have ruled out wiring and sensors and now say that the controller that changes gears may be at fault. They say it's a gearbox out job (which they quote 9hrs labour) then the new part to try is £1800, plus the labour to fit.. Then gearbox back in and see what happens! I have asked them to try the ecu first as the above is HUGE cost, knocking on £3000 in total with the investigation and labour, and it may not even fix the problem? I asked if there are other components that could be at fault but they didn't really say.. I guess it has too be a gearbox out job and investigate further but with my current investigation bills and then this, it's knocking on a grand in labour so far and still no accurate diagnosis? Aaahhhhhhhh HELP... Tempted to knock on Fiats door for help, although I am now just out of warranty!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 There is something not right about this. The gearbox that you have is pretty much the same as the one fitted to manual's and there is nothing inside that operates any differently. The electro-hydraulic control stuff is on the outside of the box. I do not know why they think they have to remove the gearbox. You should contact Fiat customer assistance and ask them to find out why this is. They will almost certainly come back to you to tell you that you will have to pay for whatever is wrong with the vehicle but while you have a 'case' open with them you can exert more pressure on the dealer to talk sense. This is almost certainly an electrical wiring fault and this can be proved by checking if the fault code can be cleared with the ignition on but with the engine not running. If the fault clears but returns after switching on the engine; the fault is more than a simple electrical wire; if it will not clear at all; it is wiring. In this case; the vehicle ECU is not getting a satisfactory result from a sensor that is only powered up but not measuring very much, or there is an incomplete or short circuit. You should make sure that the additional earth strap that is often mentioned on this forum (mostly by me) has been fitted as this cures an awful lot of strange electronic faults. That last point should really be at the top of anyone's list! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hi Nick, I am not mechanically minded so do struggle to ask the right questions. They said the box had to be removed for access and investigation. They said they couldn't remove the controller with the gearbox installed. And they said that once the gearbox was off the could check he gearbox would select gears etc and prove the controller was at fault? I am not sure about the earth strap, how would I know if it has the extra one? I will take a drive down and look! I know the guy tried to reset the fault whilst I waited, and also tried a re calibration but the fault light didn't go out.. I think he did this with engine on but he may well have tried it with engine off too?? I asked them to check ecu as that's the only other bit I know of that didn't involve removing the gearbox from what they told me.. I could do with someone like you, that knows about these things, to talk to the northern commercials and ask the correct questions and make sure the investigation is going in the right direction! Do you fancy earning some beers :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 euroserv - 2014-03-17 3:53 PM There is something not right about this. The gearbox that you have is pretty much the same as the one fitted to manual's and there is nothing inside that operates any differently. The electro-hydraulic control stuff is on the outside of the box. I do not know why they think they have to remove the gearbox. You should contact Fiat customer assistance and ask them to find out why this is. They will almost certainly come back to you to tell you that you will have to pay for whatever is wrong with the vehicle but while you have a 'case' open with them you can exert more pressure on the dealer to talk sense. This is almost certainly an electrical wiring fault and this can be proved by checking if the fault code can be cleared with the ignition on but with the engine not running. If the fault clears but returns after switching on the engine; the fault is more than a simple electrical wire; if it will not clear at all; it is wiring. In this case; the vehicle ECU is not getting a satisfactory result from a sensor that is only powered up but not measuring very much, or there is an incomplete or short circuit. You should make sure that the additional earth strap that is often mentioned on this forum (mostly by me) has been fitted as this cures an awful lot of strange electronic faults. That last point should really be at the top of anyone's list! Nick Can I just say Nick that I appreciate everything you do on this forum for those of us with limited technical knowledge. I've never had to seek help on the chassis/engine/gearbox on here (or anywhere else - touch wood) and this post has nothing to do with the problem experienced by OP but I'd hate to think you'd desert this forum at any time Thank you Nick Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Frankly I don't feel like having an argument with the dealer either but I have looked at my van and the drawings on the parts disc and find that the controller and hydraulic equipment has to be removed before the gearbox can come off. If this does not seem arse about face to them then they are not going to be convinced by me from 200 miles away! I do recommend getting Fiat involved. It is amazing how quickly the BS dries up when they are being watched! It is possible that you may get some support from them, particularly if the procedure that they propose is unsuccessful. I absolutely despise the 'let's try this' mentality. For the money that main agents charge there should be guaranteed results or you don't pay. Best guesses are the preserve of garages that are trying to save you money and do not have the resources of technical departments at the manufacturer to call upon. PS. Nice of you to say that Arthur, I will be sticking around and aim to pop by every day but recently have had a lot of my own battles to fight and it takes up a lot of my time. (Not with Fiat; I hasten to add!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 My vehicle is a 3ltr Comfortmatic, from 2000 26000miles on the clock., I would be interested to know what age and mileage the OP's 'van is. Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 OOPS, typo error. Vehicle is from 2008, not 2000. No problems to date. Great drive. Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Below is an extract from a thread on MHF concerning a mal functioning Comfortmatic gearbox. The problem in this case was due to a wiring issue and reinforces the point made by Nick that wiring is the most likely cause when a fault occurs: "The gearbox problem is solved and it was nothing to do with the Comfortmatic gearbox after all. It seems that when the engine heats up, the wiring harness below and behind the dashboard, (above the bonnet hinge around the offside headlight) expands and shorts out against the wiper motor arm. It just happens that the affected wire is a link which disengages the gearbox. The garage only stumbled across it by pushing on the wiring harness and by doing so, selected neutral! Not something the computer can diagnose. This occurred in the presence of a Fiat technical guy who claimed to have never encountered such a problem before. Which is unfortunate because a friend has experienced something similar which showed up as an engine misfire when the wiper motor was in action. And there are other similar instances on the Internet of wiper motors abrading the wiring harness. One would like to think that all of this must surely have been logged by Fiat on to some sort of database and made available to their technicians". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 For the earlier poster.. My van has done 10k miles approx.. It's just run out of its warranty, although the 3rd year I am told is insurance based anyway and may not/would not have covered the costs? Just spent another couple of hours with the technical guys.. They're confused too but are confident it's mechanical and that the box has to come out, not electrical based on there testing. They have load tested the wiring circuit and say that's fine. They have changed the battery and a cable from gearbox earth to the battery to eliminate those. They have said my alternator is knackered as it's only charging at 13.8v and they say it occasionally drops. My engine also revs up and down when started up, but eventually settles. They say this is due to a dodgy alternator as well.. Although they say they don't think this has any bearing on the gearbox fault. They tried to swap the gearbox ecu as a test but this didn't work as the one they had in another van was a newer model (euro5) and didn't do anything when plugged in. Although they are confident it's not the ecu. They have swapped sensors around on gearbox and this didn't alter the situation. They still cannot reset the fault light, it doesn't go out, and the calibration of the box doesn't respond. Just says please wait! They are going to try bleed the clutch in the morning just in case it's an air lock. Fingers crossed!! If this fails they tell me they have no other way of progressing without taking the box out, checking it manually changes once the hydraulic controller is taken off. This will eliminate the gearbox and they say point to the controller that sits on top of the gearbox. Due to access, the only way to check these items is to get the box out and this is a 9+hrs job. I am worried to death about the situation and I have suggested all I can to the mechanics to try and help based on feedback here, from fiat technicians, and other forums.. (they're probably sick of me!) So far the approx prices quoted for items have been.. £1800+vat plus fitting for the controller £500 for the alternator from Italy, not sure how much labour or if this is inc vat £78+vat per hour labour for investigations ongoing.. So far they have had it 4days! £843 approx for removal of gearbox.. (Based on 9hrs at above rate) But there is on guarantee that the above will actually resolve the problem? HELP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pampam Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Arjx you have my every sympathy our autotrail cheyanne's comfortmatic konked out when van was three years old ,weeks and weeks we were waiting for dealers to try and discover what was wrong in the end I part exed it for a new van : but I did end up getting in touch with fiat who I might add were very helpfull ,I'm not mechanically minded but it turned out to be the clutch wouldn't engage or something (I didn't think they had a clutch when automatic but apparently they do) my friend also discovered on the Internet that if you don't have a strong enough vehicle battery it affects the performance of the comfortmatic(it's a couple of years ago now so I can't remember all details but I do remember that I wished I'd got in touch with fiat earlier than I did the dealers didnt have a clue if I'd had my time again I'd have taken it to stoneacre our local fiat commercial dealers anyhow good luck I thought it was heart attack time when it happened to us it was so stressfull: pp :)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawki Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 arjxh56 - 2014-03-17 8:49 PM For the earlier poster.. My van has done 10k miles approx.. It's just run out of its warranty, although the 3rd year I am told is insurance based anyway and may not/would not have covered the costs? Just spent another couple of hours with the technical guys.. They're confused too but are confident it's mechanical and that the box has to come out, not electrical based on there testing. They have load tested the wiring circuit and say that's fine. They have changed the battery and a cable from gearbox earth to the battery to eliminate those. They have said my alternator is knackered as it's only charging at 13.8v and they say it occasionally drops. My engine also revs up and down when started up, but eventually settles. They say this is due to a dodgy alternator as well.. Although they say they don't think this has any bearing on the gearbox fault. They tried to swap the gearbox ecu as a test but this didn't work as the one they had in another van was a newer model (euro5) and didn't do anything when plugged in. Although they are confident it's not the ecu. They have swapped sensors around on gearbox and this didn't alter the situation. They still cannot reset the fault light, it doesn't go out, and the calibration of the box doesn't respond. Just says please wait! They are going to try bleed the clutch in the morning just in case it's an air lock. Fingers crossed!! If this fails they tell me they have no other way of progressing without taking the box out, checking it manually changes once the hydraulic controller is taken off. This will eliminate the gearbox and they say point to the controller that sits on top of the gearbox. Due to access, the only way to check these items is to get the box out and this is a 9+hrs job. I am worried to death about the situation and I have suggested all I can to the mechanics to try and help based on feedback here, from fiat technicians, and other forums.. (they're probably sick of me!) So far the approx prices quoted for items have been.. £1800+vat plus fitting for the controller £500 for the alternator from Italy, not sure how much labour or if this is inc vat £78+vat per hour labour for investigations ongoing.. So far they have had it 4days! £843 approx for removal of gearbox.. (Based on 9hrs at above rate) But there is on guarantee that the above will actually resolve the problem? HELP! What a Bl***y nightmare for you,just three years old and 10k miles on the van. I hope it turns out not to be as bad as you fear it might be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 The more i think and the more i google... i would really like to try and rule out the gearbox ECU with a test that would prove it for certain. Is there a way i can do this without buying a new one and having to have it re programmed to my vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 arjxh56 - 2014-03-17 8:49 PM £500 for the alternator I don't know what the difference is with Alternators, but Unipart quote between £165.51 and £751.55 for the same vehicle: http://www.unipartautomotive.co.uk/electrical/alternators-dynamos/Fiat/Ducato/all/3.0/2011/Parts.aspx (this is not a recommendation for Unipart by the way, they charge £265.61 for a valve apparently available from ntlparts for £96.95 http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/X2-50-black-smoke-and-loss-of-torque-at-lower-revs/34292/31/#M414945 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 euroserv - 2014-03-17 3:53 PM There is something not right about this. The gearbox that you have is pretty much the same as the one fitted to manual's and there is nothing inside that operates any differently. The electro-hydraulic control stuff is on the outside of the box. I do not know why they think they have to remove the gearbox. You should contact Fiat customer assistance and ask them to find out why this is. They will almost certainly come back to you to tell you that you will have to pay for whatever is wrong with the vehicle but while you have a 'case' open with them you can exert more pressure on the dealer to talk sense. This is almost certainly an electrical wiring fault and this can be proved by checking if the fault code can be cleared with the ignition on but with the engine not running. If the fault clears but returns after switching on the engine; the fault is more than a simple electrical wire; if it will not clear at all; it is wiring. In this case; the vehicle ECU is not getting a satisfactory result from a sensor that is only powered up but not measuring very much, or there is an incomplete or short circuit. You should make sure that the additional earth strap that is often mentioned on this forum (mostly by me) has been fitted as this cures an awful lot of strange electronic faults. That last point should really be at the top of anyone's list! Nick Hi Nick, could you please give any info on where and how you fitted the extra earth straps please cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Hi arjxh56, We are now on our second 3ltr comfotrmatic which up to now is fine--but the first one recorded transmission faults after just a couple of weeks and less than 1500 mls. I n fact the vehicle would show ' check transmission' and following this another message would show along the lines of 'no transmission' or disengaging transmission', whichever it was the vehicle just went in to neutral even happening on the inside lane of traffic in France. After a moment or so I could select drive and we would be ok til the next time. Luckily we were on our way home and when contacted the Fiat agent they advised to nurse the vehicle home and take it to them. This I did and the problem was cured very quickly, they informed me it something to do with wiring or connections that ran behind the heater vents in the cab. We never had any more issues with the transmission after this episode. cheers and good luck derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bounty hunter Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 use the search function puuting in "earth strap" and "euroserv" as author and you will get this https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/That-X2-50-engine-gearbox-earth-strap-again-/33081/ John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Battery issues are mentioned above. I have read somewhere that when a battery loses voltage as it gets older or for some other reason then problems with the Comfortmatic electrics have occurred. In that case I recall the incorrect battery was fitted by Fiat during manufacture as apparently the Comfortmatic and non Comfortmatic batteries are different. I have raised this on a previous thread but euroserve had not heard of this being an issue. It is interesting to note that in this latest case which is the subject of this thread, the original poster is having problems with his alternator. Could this be the reason why the battery is losing power and affecting the gearbox electrics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Mike88 I think the following forum-thread is where you asked about 'incorrect' Comfortmatic batteries (based on a MotorHomeFacts comment) http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/X-250-Vehicle-battery-Under-the-passengerrs-feet-/33651/ I doubt that there is any difference between the batteries fitted as standard to Ducatos with manual transmission or Comfortmatic transmission. However, it can be expected that there will be a capacity difference between the batteries fitted to Ducatos with the 2.3litre motor or the 3.0litre motor, as more capacity will be required for starting the larger powerplant. This webpage lists battery Amp/hour details for Euro 5 Ducatos http://vanleasingmadesimple.com/van-leasing/fiat/ducato/battery-amps and I believe the same data apply to Euro 4 Ducatos - vehicles with the 3.0litre motor all get 110Ah batteries, whereas those with the 2.3motor get 95Ah batteries. This may be the MHF thread you had in mind (I used GOOGLE-Advanced to retrieve it) http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-122006-days0-orderasc-0.html It's stated at the bottom of the thread's 1st page that replacing a 'wrong' 100Ah battery with the 'right' 110Ah battery (apparently) cured a Comfortmatic warning-light/error-message problem. It may be the case that the Comfortmatic transmission needs an adequate voltage to operate properly, so an under-par alternator and/or a discharged battery might cause problems, but I can't see why a slightly under-capacity battery (and I'd guess the 100Ah battery was actually 95Ah) would cause trouble once the vehicle's engine was running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-03-18 1:59 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It may be the case that the Comfortmatic transmission needs an adequate voltage to operate properly, so an under-par alternator and/or a discharged battery might cause problems, but I can't see why a slightly under-capacity battery (and I'd guess the 100Ah battery was actually 95Ah) would cause trouble once the vehicle's engine was running. Thanks Derek. The original poster on this thread stated: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "They have said my alternator is knackered as it's only charging at 13.8v and they say it occasionally drops." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leaving aside the question of the incorrect battery, if there is a link between an under performing battery and the gearbox electrics, then couldn't the fact that the original poster's alternator is "knackered" be a contributory cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 The battery is a red herring. My vehicles have exactly the same 95Ah battery as the manual transmission models. The alternator is potentially more significant. If the engine is 'hunting' around at idle the voltage regulator is not working properly and the engine ecu is trying to compensate. An irregular power supply can cause all kind of problems. New alternators are available from Andrew Page for about £150+ VAT for brand new Bosch unit. They are a bugger to fit, but I would get this done before ripping out a gearbox! In light of the fact that there are several problems with this vehicle at such low mileage I would definitely be in touch with Fiat customer relations by now! If Fiat advise the dealer to proceed as they believe they should and it turns out to not cure the problem; Fiat will have a responsibility to help with the costs. As it is, if you agree to pay for the suggested repairs (and they won't proceed unless you do), and they get it wrong you will be out of pocket and still not be able to use the vehicle. It is a reasonable claim that if a major item like a control unit is going to fail this early in it's life; it was clearly not fit for the purpose that it was intended. You MUST explore the Fiat route before you enter into a contract with the repairer to foot the bill yourself. The warranty period may have expired but there must be some goodwill available under the circumstances. The dealer will not be able to get this for you and should have told you to get in touch with Fiat already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 bounty hunter - 2014-03-18 10:01 AM use the search function puuting in "earth strap" and "euroserv" as author and you will get this https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/That-X2-50-engine-gearbox-earth-strap-again-/33081/ John thanks John, derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Raddats Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I had this problem on my IH Tio (2008) with same engine & gearbox in early 2012. At first Northern Commercials couldn't find a fault, either by driving or diagnostics, as it was intermittent. Apparently the vehicle goes into 'limp mode' when it happens. By July 2012 it got worse, and they were able to find a fault in a sensor. They replaced that and it's been fine since (fingers crossed of course). The invoice says 'intermittent clutch disc speed signal fault at 76k in 4th gear'. Just under £400 including VAT, which was a hell of a lot better than the new gearbox I'd feared. It was NC at Brighouse, and my invoice was Doc. No. 716253, if that helps. Good Luck Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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