ronnieb Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Hi We have just taken possession of our new motorhome. We have been looking for months for a 6 berth motorhome with a rear lounge which had to weigh 3500 mtplm due to my age 70 in 2 years. We eventually found an old 2002 model Couldn't find payload or miro information anywhere so I took it to a local weighbridge. The weight came in at 3060kgs (giving payload of 440kgs) That included 90% fuel and leisure battery. Nothing else. Not even me! Got home and started to load up weighing everything. Me, wifey, teenage daughter, dog (224 KGS) , bare essentials (and I mean bare) have gone in leaving us 61 KGS for food, water, clothes, spare battery, 3 bikes. Somehow I don't think we can do it. After searching high and low on the net I have come across the same model with a mtplm of 3850kgs. I'm guessing that as our payload 'seems' too small that our van has been down plated. I've checked to see if there are any other plates anywhere but there are none just the one showing 3500kgs It seems like our only option is going to have to have it plated up to 3850. We didn't want a van this heavy in the 1st place due to my age My questions are 1) are there records kept anywhere that can tell us if the motorhome has been downplated. 2) should we have paperwork showing this has happened. 3) do we have any recourse against the company who sold us the motor home. Should they have known / told us Is 440 KGS normal for an old van with 3 traveling seats. We were thrilled with our new van but this has put a real dampener on it. Any suggestions welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 1) don't worry about he 70+ test! it's pretty straightforward. 2) many motorhomes have 3500 and 3850K ratings, mine has both but has the former on the plate and the latter on my V5. It's the loading on the rear axle that is usually the limiting factor. You can have a total weight within limits, but too much behind the rear wheels. 3) it's more likely to have been 3500K from new, I wouldn't bother checking with the DVLA as they seem to be in meltdown, see DVLA thread. 4) a second battery isn't really necessary unless you rarely go on a hook up. 5) just rethink what you actually need rather than what you might need 6) 224Kg seems heavy for a dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 ronnieb - 2014-05-30 6:23 PM.....................My questions are 1) are there records kept anywhere that can tell us if the motorhome has been downplated. 2) should we have paperwork showing this has happened. 3) do we have any recourse against the company who sold us the motor home. Should they have known / told us Is 440 KGS normal for an old van with 3 traveling seats. We were thrilled with our new van but this has put a real dampener on it. Any suggestions welcome 1) If the vehicle had been down-plated you would find the original 3,850kg plate on the van, with (if it had been done properly) the 3,500 kg plate against it, so that the re-plating is clear. 2) Unlikely, but the previous owner should be able to confirm whether the MAM was changed. However, I'm with the Billggski: I suspect the van was available at 3,850 or 3,500kg MAM from new. 6 berth vans tend to be large (even if they only have three travel seats!), and large vans and a 3,500kg MAM are a very unhappy mix when it comes to payload. 3) You might, if you had told them at the point of sale (and could prove it), what payload you wanted the van to carry. It seems you cannot have done this, so the answer, I'm afraid, is that you are extremely unlikely to have any case against him. 440kg is a better payload than some 6 berth vans, but that doesn't help you. As things stand, you broadly have three unpalatable choices. A) Change the van for one with an adequate payload. This will almost certainly mean a MAM exceeding 3,500kg. B) Reduce what you take so that it fits within 3,500kg. C) Get the van re-plated to the best figure it can take. The best firm to approach for this is SV Tech, who can generally advise what is practical if you give them a chassis (VIN) number. However, do be aware that the cheapest form of re-plating (basically a "desk" exercise) involves adjusting the MAM only, to a figure close to the sum of the two permissible axle loads, and does nothing to improve axle capacity. Most vans, as mentioned above, tend to run out of rear axle load before they run out of MAM. You would, therefore, be wise to load the van as your calculations indicate should be within its MAM, and re-visit the weighbridge with it in that condition. If, as seems to me probable, you then find the rear axle is overloaded, the desk type re-plating exercise will be unlikely to work, and at minimum tyres with a higher load carrying capacity will be needed. More can be achieved on certain chassis, but at higher cost. SV Tech will be able to advise what can be achieved, but the first logical step has to be to re-weigh the van laden to see how the actual axle loads compare with their plated legal maxima. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieb Posted May 30, 2014 Author Share Posted May 30, 2014 Many thanks for your help. Payload was never discussed mtplm was. Back to the weight bridge fully laden and see what it comes to and then go from there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 ronnieb - 2014-05-30 11:07 PM Many thanks for your help. Payload was never discussed mtplm was. Back to the weight bridge fully laden and see what it comes to and then go from there This time get 3 measurements. drive on with just the front wheels over: front axle capacity. drive on to centre with all wheels on plate: all up weight drive off with just rear wheels on: rear wheel capacity. this is normally the important figure and where many find the rear axle overloaded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 On previous thread about this issue, the simple solution is to put higher rated tyres on the rear to carry any extra weight on the back axle, and if you are marginal on the 3500K leave it at that. If you are well over and anxious to comply with regulations, then get replated to 3850K by SVtech. Just a paper exercise, which won't change your actual carrying capacity, but keeps you legal, and incidentally brings your road tax down. Mine is a six berth, and won't really carry 6 with all our gear, but with two of us and two dogs, 25% water, fuel and bits and pieces we are bang on the limit at the rear. I moved a lot of stuff forward to balance the load, last year I was probably over weight on the back axle before I realised the issue and realised a lot of the stuff was not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Billggski - 2014-05-31 1:11 PM On previous thread about this issue, the simple solution is to put higher rated tyres on the rear to carry any extra weight on the back axle, and if you are marginal on the 3500K leave it at that. Hope I'm not splitting hairs, Bill, but whereas doing this may resolve the safety issue of overloaded tyres, it does nothing to legalise the excess axle load. Legally, the position on an overloaded axle is the same as for an overloaded vehicle. A VOSA inspector will look only at the vehicle VIN plate for MAM and axle loads. Any overload is an infringement. If you are well over and anxious to comply with regulations, then get replated to 3850K by SVtech. Just a paper exercise, which won't change your actual carrying capacity, but keeps you legal, and incidentally brings your road tax down. Again hoping I'm not splitting hairs, but if the vehicle were "well overloaded" and the OP was aware of this but continued driving, he would still be in dangerous territory, both actually and legally. It seems likely that the rear axle of the van would become overloaded if the van were loaded beyond its MAM. Indeed, it seems reasonably likely that the rear axle would become overloaded even before the van attains its MAM. The "paper exercise" to re-plate the van to increase its MAM does nothing to increase the permissible axle loads. So, raising the MAM while leaving the rear axle overloaded would not keep the OP legal. Any overload is illegal. As the OP has said he will now get a check weighing of both axles with what he considers his maximum legal load on board, it seems preferable to await the results. Then we shall all know whether the rear axle is actually overloaded or not. If the OP then speaks to SV Tech with his vehicle details, they should be able to advise him what options he has, and at what approximate cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 This thread, and similar, seems to have made a lot of us look at the way manufacturers have tempted us to buy MHs with large garages, and then fit tow bars, bike racks etc and wobble off oblivious to the rear loading on the tyres. I weighed ours recently and was well within overall weight, but had only 60k spare at the back for all the stuff for a continental trip. A roof box has moved a lot forward, but of course it is higher up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieb Posted June 1, 2014 Author Share Posted June 1, 2014 We are looking at always to reduce the payload - we need about an extra 70 kgs So far we have though about removing the fiamma awning estimate 25kgs maybe removing the chest of drawers at the rear - not sure of the weight but guessing about 30+ kgs would leave us about 55 kgs for food, water, and clothes - not great :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 But, weigh it first, and then talk to SV Tech about the shortfall, before you attack anything. When you take it for weighing, make sure you have all passengers, dog, etc. on board and in their respective places. Also, fill the fuel tank before weighing, and also try to get full gas cylinders on board. I would also suggest you fill the fresh water tank, because it is very difficult to estimate how much is left in it because of the almost universal inaccuracy of the tank gauges. The alternative would be to weigh with the water tank empty, providing you are prepared to travel with the tank empty and only fill on arrival, emptying when you leave - which is rather a faff. If the toilet has a separate water tank, also fill that. The cassette can always be emptied before travelling. What you will then get is the amount of payload available for food, drinks, clothes, bedding, tables chairs etc. etc. But more importantly, you will get the distribution of the van's weight between the two axles in something near a true mass in running order trim. When weighing, either do as Judgemental suggests, or first get the weight of the whole van (A), then drive the front wheels just off the platform to get the weight on the rear axle (B). The front axle load will then be the former minus the latter (A - B). You already have some idea of the weight of the food etc you want to carry, so can then explain the scale of your problem to SV tech. On reputation, they will be able to tell you what can be done, and give a preliminary estimate of the cost. You never know, if the balance is good, you may get away with just the "desk" re-plating exercise. However, there are physical limits to what can be done to enhance the load carrying capacity of any given axle or chassis so, at the other end of the scale, you may have to consider more radical solutions, even changing the van. Better that, IMO, even though it will involve considerable expense, than trying to travel with a van that is, in effect, a stressful albatross round your necks! Good luck at the weighbridge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 If you have 3060K to start with, you could manage as you are by travelling with minimum water and basics for UK trips. If you replate to 3850K that will give you 790K payload, which is more than most, just check your rear weight and change the rear tyres for a higher rated pair if you are worried. I think you are actually better placed than many MHs I see with rear garages and motor bikes on the back. I bet they haven't weighed their rear axles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 ronnieb - 2014-06-01 10:23 AM We are looking at always to reduce the payload - we need about an extra 70 kgs So far we have though about removing the fiamma awning estimate 25kgs maybe removing the chest of drawers at the rear - not sure of the weight but guessing about 30+ kgs would leave us about 55 kgs for food, water, and clothes - not great :( Personally,unless you have a known condition that will fail a medical, I would get the van Uprated to 3850kg (you mention similar vans with higher weight limit) and in 2 years take the medical, Our van is over the 3500kg, and I am also 2 years off of 70. Have no intention of changing my Van. If you are reasonably fit ? what is the problem ? especially as the Government now tells us we will be working 'well into our 70's' !!!! Do they intend to 'put something into the water' ?? a 'Tory' elixir of long (working) life ?? ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 When you get the van re-weighed, try and get all three of you sat in the van when weighing, have at least 20l of water in the fresh water tank, and if possible two full gas cylinders. You might also find this helpful: http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/how-to-calculate-your-motorhome’s-safe-weight-limits-4104/ SV Tech is a helpful firm so will be able to guide you through the process of upgrading. If its not a paper exercise, SV Tech will tell you what additional work is required. I am surprised that your van came in at 3060kg without the driver and some fresh water aboard. Your MIRO would be c 3,155kg based on your figures. Most manufacturers keep records of their vans and so if you don't have a manual [which should show your MIRO], you might find help on the manufacturers website or helpline. It may also be worth looking at whether there is an owners forum for the model. Have any extras been fitted apart from presumably a bike rack and the awning you've mentioned. Wives can drive heavy motorhomes, especially if they are younger! I doubt you have any recourse against the seller unless you have documentary evidence making it clear how you would use the van and incorrectly answering questions from you about weight etc. I think the seller could have been more helpful though and not pursued an inappropriate sale. When posting asking for help, it's a good idea to state your motorhome model. Let us know how you get on at the weighbridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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