frenchman Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Hi guys an girls ! Look I know this is going to open up a can of worms but, In about twelve to eighteen months time should be going fulltiming yeah! I want to take a small car, maybe a smart car behind our Delaware. Can somebody clarify if I can use a fully braked a frame? Some say I can and others say no, I'm confused and frustrated. Would like to travel through France and Spain,maybe even Portugal. Looked on dti website and even that's not clear, Doh! :'( Red wine is the meaning of life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Have you used the search facility re A frames?...................I have heard A frames are illegal in Spain ;-)........... At least you can expect a lively debate on the subject if previous threads are any kind of guide :D.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 If you want trouble free travel in France, Spain, and Portugal you will have to put up with a trailer. Flat towing a vehicle on public roads is illegal in all three countries, unless by an authorised recovery vehicle. There are exceptions for emergencies (vehicles broken down in dangerous places etc) but the rules under which a vehicle can then be towed are highly restrictive. It is irrelevant whether the means of towing is an A frame or other, or whether the towed vehicle can be braked, it is the act of towing itself that is illegal. The French police now seem to turn a "blind eye" to A frames used by foreign registered vehicles, and a few French motorhomers have also bought them. Time will tell if the "blind eye" extends also to them. The Spanish situation is complicated because Spain is not a unified state but, in effect, a federation. The law is a federal law, but enforcement of the ban is left to the local administration. Some local police forces seem to stop infringers, others seem not to, so it is a bit of a lottery. The argument that a towed car becomes a trailer, which is loosely accepted in the UK as being a "grey area", will not wash abroad. First, as with the duck principle, if it looks like a car, moves like a car, and hoots like a car, it is a car. :-) Secondly, you are obliged to carry the V5C while abroad, and that states that it is a petrol, or diesel, car. Little room for doubt, therefore. The argument that it is legal under the Vienna Convention on International Traffic won't wash either. To be valid, a vehicle (or combination of vehicles) has to be legal in its country of registration. A frames are not formally legalised in the UK, they merely have not been made illegal. Therefore, no proof that can be produced to prove their legality: hence the grey area. Roughly, in continental Europe if something is not formally legalised, it is deemed illegal. In UK, if something is not legally banned, it is deemed legal. The only universally legal solution is to carry the car on a trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Putting aside the issue of legality of an A Frame system, I have found the use of a trailer better anyway, because it is more flexible and manoeuvrable, for example you can reverse it. Once you get the hang of it loading the car on to the trailer is not burdensome and takes only a few minutes to do the tying down. The economics work well too. No modifications necessary to the car and the trailer sells easily, as does the car, when your requirement ends. The only downside, fortunately not a problem for me at home, is that you need somewhere to store the trailer. And it does need some maintenance, so I get mine serviced once per year fpr peace of mind, costing about £65. Trailers are not difficult to maintain yourslef if you prefer. Not had a problem parking the trailer somewhere on caravan sites etc so far, usually next to the pitch but if necessary somewhere else. I bought a single axle trailer which is easy to manoeuvre - it can even be pushed around to some extent when loaded, so hitching up is easy. I had an A Frame once. I allowed me to use a larger towed vehicle (within the towing capacity of the MH) but it was awkward to hitch up (because it needed exact positioning before dropping the hitch on to the ball) and felt like more trouble than worth. That was years ago and I doubt the braking system on that A frame would stand scrutiny these days - just a cable pulling on the brake pedal with no servo assistance but it worked OK. I couln't reverse with the car attached and had to unhitch and move the two vehicles separately once when I got stuck. Overall I find putting the unadapted car on a standard trailer much better than using an A frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 We have been towing our Toyota iQ on a B J Micro Max trailer for the last 3 years with our Autotrail Delaware. We had the mhome first and then after towing a motorscooter on a Easylifter rack we moved to the car and trailer as my wife wasn't keen on "two wheels! The trailer was modified by fitting:- movers and 110 Ah leisure battery; Alko stabiliser; Alko jockey wheel with removeable wheel to allow for total retraction within the confines of the 'A' frame. THe motorhome already had air-assisted suspension with compressor and guages fitted in the cab which has been of significant assistance when towing a trailer plus car,viz: embarking/disembarking of ferries - variation of ramps is amazing; traversing some of the "road furniture" on continental roads; hitching/unhitching the trailer to negotiate smaller pitches or when reversing skills were exhausted because the topography didn't permit the lowering/raising of the steadies or the removal/fitting of the jockey wheel. In these situations the simple pressing of a button resulting in the raising of the towball height saved many a situation! Unfortunately the Delaware is not the ideal towing vehicle because of its fairly extensive 'overhang' but the Alko chassis and air suspension is mitigation but I imagine a smaller overhang would be much better. I am also confident the Alko stabiliser heped to dampen movement of the trailer due to the overhang. I think it is also important to choose a single axle trailer with a motorhome such as the Delaware as this also compensates for the overhang - a twin axle trailer would, in my opinion, result in an unpleasant towing experience. I hope this is of assistance to you but I would caution against using an 'A' Frame: I have just returned from Spain and France with my mhome and trailer where the combo was subject to fairly close scrutiny by the Police in both jurisdictions with no issues raised BUT I encountered others towing with 'A' Frames who were subject to the penalty of the law in Spain but not in France. If you are "going full-time" I imagine you will not be constantly on the move so a trailer - bearing in mind the 'draw backs' with the Delaware- would be the preferred choice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Frank McAuley - 2014-07-14 11:46 AM ....THe motorhome already had air-assisted suspension with compressor and guages fitted in the cab which has been of significant assistance when towing a trailer plus car,viz: embarking/disembarking of ferries - variation of ramps is amazing; traversing some of the "road furniture" on continental roads; hitching/unhitching the trailer to negotiate smaller pitches or when reversing skills were exhausted because the topography didn't permit the lowering/raising of the steadies or the removal/fitting of the jockey wheel. In these situations the simple pressing of a button resulting in the raising of the towball height saved many a situation!.... I think it is also important to choose a single axle trailer with a motorhome such as the Delaware as this also compensates for the overhang - a twin axle trailer would, in my opinion, result in an unpleasant towing experience...... Interesting to read about the use of air suspesion assist to "jack up" the back of the MH and raise the towball height when necessary. We have grounded the towball occassionally (due to a poor take off angle of the MH) and air suspension might well help in those circumstances, although scraping the underside of the towball mount on the ground briefly doesn't seem to do much harm. Our MH doesn't have a particularly long rear overhang so I suspect grounding the underside of the towball is quite a common problem. It might be worth ensuring that your towball mounting can stand grounding if necessary by attaching a suitable skid plate underneath it. I disaggree about twin axle trailers being somehow more difficult to tow by the way. We sometimes tow an Ifor Williams BV105 box van trailer which is twin axle and that tows beautifully. Our single axle car transporter is relatively long (it's designed to carry longish lightweight cars like the Caterham Seven) and the spare wheel (mounted on the LH side behind the axle) grounded once as we pulled into an unusually steep approach to a petrol station, so we now carry the spare in the MH garage. The rear steadies on the car trailer probably serve as skids if we ever ground at the rear but I'm not aware of actually having done that. Both trailers are easy to reverse with; you get a good view via the MH mirrors and the width/length of the trailers makes it easy to avoid jack-knifing them. I imagine that the very short Smart car-type trailers could be a bit more difficult to reverse. I don't find towing either trailer problematic at all, indeed I quite enjoy it. There is of course a fuel consumption penalty from towing, although nothing like as much as when towing a caravn behind a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 THe 2 -v- 4 wheel trailer refers to a mhome with a substantial overhang and the geometery indicates that the single axle is preferable in that it allows for movement which is not transmitted to the motorhome chassis via the towball. A skid is a good idea but only for extreme emergencies not as a design feature. If you ever drove off with the trailer steadies down you would quickly realise the potential for extreme damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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