Guest pelmetman Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-07-18 4:12 PM malc d - 2014-07-18 4:04 PM My mistake Dave. I thought that the fact that you cut and paste so much stuff from these sources indicated that you took them seriously. ( Otherwise - why do it ? ) ;-) .....somebody had to take on CliveH's mantle......... (Who he? ......or more to the point, where he?) ;-) I suspect he's lying down in a darkened room after suffering a bile overload from you know who *-)............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-07-18 5:08 PM I suspect he's lying down in a darkened room after suffering a bile overload from you know who *-)............ ....if so, rather a case of l'arroseur arrosé . (IMHO ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I reckon you're an expert Dave......or are you just gassing. 8-) :D Blimey!!!....Brian thinks antony is an expert...doesn't he know he's from Yorkshire? >:-) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 malc d - 2014-07-18 4:04 PM pelmetman - 2014-07-18 3:43 PM I doubt there's a paper on the high st that isn't trying to push its own agenda...... whether its the true blue Tory Telegraph...... the Liberal & Luvies Guardian or........... Labours T*t's & B*m Sun...........the Daily Wail is no different ;-).................. My mistake Dave. I thought that the fact that you cut and paste so much stuff from these sources indicated that you took them seriously. ( Otherwise - why do it ? ) ;-) Possibly as some sort of relief from the alternating tedium of RAIN and/or MIDGIES in Scotland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-07-18 5:05 PM I do cut and paste from other papers Malc.................even the Guardian..........I'm not fussy :D.............. Why do it?................well why not?...............this is Chatterbox after all :-S.............. So when you go for a chat in a pub, you take newspapers with you and try to persuade people to read them ? If that is the case, can you let us all know which pubs you go to. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Many moons ago a new lecturer in college introduced himself as an expert with the quote that this meant he knew a great deal about very little. John (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 malc d - 2014-07-18 7:09 PM pelmetman - 2014-07-18 5:05 PM I do cut and paste from other papers Malc.................even the Guardian..........I'm not fussy :D.............. Why do it?................well why not?...............this is Chatterbox after all :-S.............. So when you go for a chat in a pub, you take newspapers with you and try to persuade people to read them ? If that is the case, can you let us all know which pubs you go to. :-| Go to pubs 8-)...............and talk to people :-S.....................I did that once ;-)............ended up having to buy a round of drinks :'(.................... But I'm quite happy to buy you a virtual drink Malc.............cheers :D............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-07-18 5:50 PM pelmetman - 2014-07-18 5:08 PM I suspect he's lying down in a darkened room after suffering a bile overload from you know who *-)............ ....if so, rather a case of l'arroseur arrosé . (IMHO ;-) ) HE also likes to water me to ;-)................but he's dealing with an "expert" in the art of urine extraction :D............ It's all part of ones nautical training :->......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I gave up listening to so called experts years ago because they tend to be publicity seeking pillocks who don't express their expertise in the wider context of what already exists. Having managed 'experts' for many years, I don't think the Wiki definition goes far enough. I would include an expert keeps up to date with current thinking and trends etc but most importantly, is able to pass on knowledge to others in a way that it is understood. It is the ability to share relevant knowledge in a meaningful way. Having technical knowledge is not enough. Harvard Business Review once contained an article on Competent Jerks [knowledgeable people with limited social skills] and Loveable fools [people who had great social skills but talked rubbish]. From memory, there were two other categories. At a higher level to experts are those with wisdom. To me wisdom is everything an expert is plus the ability to foster understanding by explaining principles, sharing experience, asking the awkward or unusual questions, and by clarifying the problem, helping people come up with innovative solutions. I put Dave in that category once and he blushed. He is not the only one on this site who has wisdom though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 But John, surely, that has more to do with the misclassification of experts in popular usage, than with actual expertise. Too many seem to think that someone who merely articulates a case convincingly (especially if it agrees with their opinion!) must be an expert! I agree about the desirability of wisdom, but not that wisdom is a pre-requisite for expertise. I agree that a wise expert is of greater value than one who lacks wisdom, but not that the unwise expert is of no value. If we employ, or quote, experts, we should do so recognizing their personal limitations, and in the knowledge that none are infallible. I don't agree that the ability to teach others should be a pre-requisite for being acknowledged as an expert. Certainly, in a teacher, one requires expertise - both in teaching and in the subject taught - but in other fields what one needs is the expertise, not lessons in how to become the expert. I have met some singularly inarticulate experts, who could no more explain in readily accessible terms what they were doing than fly, but whose expertise lay in their ability to do it to a standard others could not achieve. What other term should be applied to craftsmen of the highest calible? IMO, the Wiki definition gets it about right. It implies both wisdom and up-to-date knowledge, and that the title is bestowed by others upon the expert - not that it is a person's view of him/her self. Rather than not listening to experts, I think one should listen to them, but then consider the value of their advice in the round. Why consult an expert, if one will then reject their advice out of hand? I assume an expert's opinion would be sought where others lack relevant knowledge. In the absence of relevant knowledge, whose advice should then be sought? This seems to me a rather perverse attitude, liable to lead to wasted time and resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Brian at the risk of being banned from this forum for being too agreeable ... Agree with your first paragraph. Those who can articulate but know little fit into my pillock class or possibly Harvard's loveable fools. Agree with your second paragraph. An expert does not need wisdom and we should take the views of any expert in the context of any limitations. For many things, an expert is sufficient. Agree with your third paragraph although we may disagree on what is a teacher. There is a hierarchy of learning which puts teaching at the base. Without it, the taught cannot build their own expertise. Teaching is a skill and often something done en-masse such as to classes of 30. 'Sitting with nelly' is next where the taught get shown how to do things. I would expect experts to be at the next level and able to coach whilst wisdom is useful for facilitating experts and mentoring. True wisdom perhaps is when you can facilitate and mentor without people knowing. I disagree with your fourth paragraph to the degree that I expect an expert to be able to develop others to reach this 'unachievable standard'. Failure to do so is an abrogation of their expert responsibilities. I'd allow that such people are qualified to do a task and I will always recognise relevant professional qualifications. To me someone who is professionally qualified is only an expert when they can pass on their up to date expertise. Consequently, you cannot have met any inarticulate experts! Agree with your final paragraph on the basis that the experts can pass on their knowledge. Experts who give me advice that I don't understand are neither use nor ornament although in some cases I'd persevere to gain that understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Brock - 2014-07-20 1:03 AM At a higher level to experts are those with wisdom. To me wisdom is everything an expert is plus the ability to foster understanding by explaining principles, sharing experience, asking the awkward or unusual questions, and by clarifying the problem, helping people come up with innovative solutions. I put Dave in that category once and he blushed. He is not the only one on this site who has wisdom though. Writing stuff like that John..... will do little for my village idiot persona :-S..................besides I think the label expert is to easily applied now days by the media :-|...................and often they'll haul out an anorak with letters after his name, and steeped in knowledge of a single subject and estrapolate his input to bolster their own agenda............. Hence my reason for this thread.................I believe the term has been devalued to be almost meaningless..... As for wisdom.................. If I had any of that do you think I'd keep sticking my head above the parapet on here? :D............................but I do love an awkward question :->........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-07-20 6:23 PM Writing stuff like that John..... will do little for my village idiot persona :- Have no fear Dave - you are in no danger of losing it. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 candapack - 2014-07-20 8:26 PM pelmetman - 2014-07-20 6:23 PM Writing stuff like that John..... will do little for my village idiot persona :- Have no fear Dave - you are in no danger of losing it. :-D Thanks Chris ;-)..................that's a relief :D............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I would expect a Village Idiot to be expert in choosing the right straw to chew, health & safety, first aid, and the price of dead sparrows. Wisdom could be about how to choose the right wall to fall off with the minimum risk of injury. We could always put Dave's Idiot expertise to the test by getting him to explain to Lenny how to pay for an import using dead birds and twigs, ensuring that such dead birds comply with the relevant EU directive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Delighted to agree John, though the singularly inarticulate experts I met (I didn't say totally inarticulate :-)) were experts with their hands, and could handle tools and materials with rare skill. I'm sure they could have passed on their skills to others, but by demonstration and imitation, not by explaining them. In retrospect, I guess that is a kind of articulation - just not the kind that I was thinking of! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 candapack - 2014-07-18 3:45 PM This thread very relevant to the Scottish Independence Referendum. Both sides can call on any number of "experts" who will give diametrically opposing views on any number of topics - economics, currency, The EU, defence, etc. etc. Which of course gets us more and more confused. :-( I found this interesting ;-)............ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293 If you vote yes, my life expectancy will go up :D.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-07-22 3:59 PM candapack - 2014-07-18 3:45 PM This thread very relevant to the Scottish Independence Referendum. Both sides can call on any number of "experts" who will give diametrically opposing views on any number of topics - economics, currency, The EU, defence, etc. etc. Which of course gets us more and more confused. :-( I found this interesting ;-)............ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293 If you vote yes, my life expectancy will go up :D.................. Yes, if you believe the experts who wrote it. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-07-22 3:59 PM candapack - 2014-07-18 3:45 PM This thread very relevant to the Scottish Independence Referendum. Both sides can call on any number of "experts" who will give diametrically opposing views on any number of topics - economics, currency, The EU, defence, etc. etc. Which of course gets us more and more confused. :-( I found this interesting ;-)............ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293 If you vote yes, my life expectancy will go up :D.................. I think this item is a good example of the misleading cr*p that can be spread by fiddling about with statistics. It says: If Scotland left ---------------- "........an already busy country would suddenly become much more crowded " ( Why ? who's moving in ??? ) " ............. life expectancy would rise by 0.4 years " ( Why ? how will our health improve if Scotland leaves ? ) It's not just a case of beware experts - --- --- beware of statistics. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 malc d - 2014-07-22 8:14 PM pelmetman - 2014-07-22 3:59 PM candapack - 2014-07-18 3:45 PM This thread very relevant to the Scottish Independence Referendum. Both sides can call on any number of "experts" who will give diametrically opposing views on any number of topics - economics, currency, The EU, defence, etc. etc. Which of course gets us more and more confused. :-( I found this interesting ;-)............ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293 If you vote yes, my life expectancy will go up :D.................. I think this item is a good example of the misleading cr*p) Steady on Malc 8-)..................It's not like you to indulge in the language of the lower orders ;-)............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-07-23 7:40 PM malc d - 2014-07-22 8:14 PM pelmetman - 2014-07-22 3:59 PM candapack - 2014-07-18 3:45 PM This thread very relevant to the Scottish Independence Referendum. Both sides can call on any number of "experts" who will give diametrically opposing views on any number of topics - economics, currency, The EU, defence, etc. etc. Which of course gets us more and more confused. :-( I found this interesting ;-)............ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293 If you vote yes, my life expectancy will go up :D.................. I think this item is a good example of the misleading cr*p) Steady on Malc 8-)..................It's not like you to indulge in the language of the lower orders ;-)............ Well - there are times when I despair of our media. At the time of the banking crisis a daily newspaper added up all the governments debts - everybodys mortgage debts - everybodys credit card debts. They then divided the total by the total population and declared that EVERYONE in the country owed fifty five thousand pounds. Absolute nonsense of course - but a lot of people swallowed it. ;-) p.s. Who do you mean by the " lower orders " ? Bankers ? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 malc d - 2014-07-23 8:43 PM p.s. Who do you mean by the " lower orders " ? Bankers ? ;-) I put them in the shallow orders Malc ;-)................................having done work in quite a few of their houses........................we all need a sock draw................but who needs a draw for a pair of socks? *-)................................a CO of Barclays :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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