my weekend home Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I don't know if we have just been unlucky but would be interested in any other problems experienced with the emissions sensor on the Fiat euro 5 engine. Our engine stalled near to home a week ago. It started ok but had a warning light on. We made plans to take it to the Fiat dealer but it would not then tick over. The RAC were called and diagnosed a blocked emissions filter. They took the motorhome out and revved it and it cleared and the light reset and all was ok. However it happened again and now the garage are saying its a faulty sendor. The engine is just over two years old and has not done short journeys. Anyone else had a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Hello, I have not heard of this one yet. Our vehicles also only do long journeys but are out on the road 5 days a week too. This could be an infrequent use rather than low mileage problem. Please make sure that you find out the part number of the item that is at fault when it is repaired. If you let me know what it is, I can look into possible cures or prevention for the wider community. The description alone is not enough and could point to one of several devices. Thanks. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my weekend home Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Thanks for the reply. I will do that. Its going back to the garage a on 8th Aug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgnbuk Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I have had a DPF sensor replaced recently under warranty - my van is a March 2013 registered (July 2011chassis build - it stood a long time !) Ducato 130 Roller Team T-Line 670. Heading out for the May Bank Holiday, about a mile from home, the Engine Management light came on. I live a couple of miles from Northern Commercials in Brighouse, so went straight round. They were able to put the van on the diagnostic computer within an hour & it came up as a DPF fault. Mileage at the time was around 6000 & the "Regeneration" light had not been on up to that point (I bought the van new & am the only driver). Northern Commercials had a service bulletin which said that when showing these symptoms a replacement sensor "Kit" had to be fitted comprising a different sensor and various pipes and hoses. Additionally, the Engine Mangement software was to be updated & a regeneration of the DPF forced. I don't know the part numbers, but the Service supervisor showed me the list of parts (about a dozen IIRC) and the instructions that came withe the "kit", which were several A4 pages.. I was told I was OK to use the van for the planned break & did around 300 miles - it felt a bit down on power & the EM light stayed on, but otherwise no further problems. The parts arrived later that week - the van felt back to normal power-wise afterwards & the "forced regen" of the DPF seemed to have used about 10 litres of diesel. We went abroad for the next trip - all OK for the first 1000 miles, then heading for Garmisch from Innsbruck I revved it a bit harder in 2nd coming out of a hairpin bend up a steel incline & at about 3500 rpm the EM light came on again. Power & driveability were not affected. After 3 or 4 starts, the EM light went off again. On our return, I took it in to Norther Commencials again & the logged fault was again DPF related. Last phone conversation with NC I was told that the technician had reset the ECU and had been unable to replicate the problem on an extended test drive (I don't pick the van up until Friday). I am a bit concerned about this, not least because the warranty expires next February & DPFs are expensive toys ! I tend to use branded fuels rather tha supermarket & cruise at 60-65 on motorways/ dual carriageways (2500 rpm +), so I would have expected to have regularly provided suitable conditions for the DPF to regenerate if it required it - to the best of my knowledge it has not regenerated of it's own accord at all. I will be heading across the Channel again later in the year and, with other planned trips, should have the mileage up around 12k when it gets to 2 years old - enough to really prove all is well with the DPF before I have to start paying for repairs ? Nigel B.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my weekend home Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Nigel thats interesting. Sounds exactly what they plan to do to ours except the van is just (one month) out of warrenty. Est cost £ 320. RAC said its not confined to just Fiat but other low emission diesels. My concern is that we do long distances to burn it off so goodness knows what happens to motors doing short hops. If they need to replace more than just a sensor then surely its a modification and perhaps should be a Fiat recall. I am speaking to them tomorrow. Will update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Hi, The same has happened to me over the last 10 days. EM light came on near Darlington on our 2013 2.3 Ducato. we stopped overnight in Corbridge and called the RAC the following morning. He said no fault found and the EM light went out, but he suspected the DPFilter. Next morning after 30 miles the EM light came back on so on the following day I took it to Border Cars in Dumfries who were really good and changed both sensors also doing a Regeneration. Four days later the EM light came on once more, I think Northern Commercials is my best bet as I am now quite close to them. I dread to think what the cost would be if not under warranty. Thanks Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 my weekend home - 2014-07-30 8:31 PM Nigel thats interesting. Sounds exactly what they plan to do to ours except the van is just (one month) out of warrenty. Est cost £ 320. RAC said its not confined to just Fiat but other low emission diesels. My concern is that we do long distances to burn it off so goodness knows what happens to motors doing short hops. If they need to replace more than just a sensor then surely its a modification and perhaps should be a Fiat recall. I am speaking to them tomorrow. Will update. You should ask the dealer whether they have asked Fiat for a contribution to this repair because it is so soon after the end of the warranty period, and with the mileage being so low. It is not uncommon for Fiat to pick up the entire cost but won't unless they are asked. If the answer is no; call Fiat customer relations (the number is in your handbook) and ask them to look into it stating that you are very unhappy about being charged this kind of money for equipment that should last the lifetime of the vehicle. You need to do this BEFORE parting with your money. It's more difficult afterwards because they pay a different labour rate to what you do at the dealer and refunding you costs them more money. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 On a more general note..... If the exhaust temperature is high enough, and if the actual particulate matter being emitted from the engine is not significant (as it is not with Fiat 2.3 engines), the need to 'regenerate' is reduced considerably. An efficient, clean engine that is generating enough heat in the exhaust down-pipe may never have to regenerate at all! Faulty sensors will either provide no indication of the back pressure in the exhaust and DPF or an erroneous value that suggests too much or too little back pressure and either the ECU will instigate multiple regenerations or none at all. The fact that the ECU is recognising an inconsistent signal is a good thing because at least it is not taking incorrect measures to deal with the readings that it is receiving. In spite of the couple of sensor issues that have been reported here, there is no suggestion that there are any faults with the DPF's themselves. That is good news. Our 2013 vehicles have done about 40,000 miles and the early 2014's are up to about 25,000 miles. So far with no problems at all. The case above with a 2011 build with a DPF must be a very early Euro5 and this is the one to watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my weekend home Posted August 1, 2014 Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 Thank you for both your posts. In discussion with Fiat now. I appreciate the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydney1 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Similar(ish) issue http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/OBD2-Fault-codes/35611/ reference to reader of more interest to assist in identifying cause Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Just to add to this thread. We have a 2.3 Fiat Ducato Euro V which is just a year old and on holiday in France after filling up with diesel ( maybe just co-incidence) we got the engine management light up. The motorhome goes superb, no black smoke, fuel consumption very good. We stopped at a Fiat garage in Perigueux who had a look and tried the MH and said all was OK to drive but he couldn't put it onto a computer as he had 3 MH's in the bays being worked on already,so told us to have it looked at when we got home. Tried to regen the DPF by 'working it hard' to no avail. Just had the habitation check done on the MH yesterday and got my dealer to check the codes and he has come up with the following but could not reset them :- P2454 DPF Pressure sensor 'A' circuit too low P2002 DPF Efficiency below threshold (Bank 1) We don't do short journeys, always long runs travelling about 55 - 60 MPH. On our round trip to Bristol of about 240 miles we were getting 31 MPG which is not bad for a 4 tonne motorhome and in France we averaged just under 30 MPG. We have just done over 4000 miles so this is baffling. My local Fiat dealers who are supposed to be MH service centres won't look at because they say they don't have the facilities or space for a MH, so I am taking it into HTC (Fiat commercial specialist) to have a look at. Any comments Nick ? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 My guess is that you either had a momentary fluctuation in the flow of something or other and this put the light on but the vehicle cannot erase the fault itself and needs to be done on the Fiat examiner (and will be fine afterwards) OR this is how the traditional earth fault (requiring an upgraded earth lead between the gearbox and the chassis) manifests itself on the Euro 5 vehicles. At this point, I don't know because I have not seen this yet but whatever it is it will be covered by warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Nick Many thanks for your reply. I will update you when HTC at Theale has a look next Monday. Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 AFAIK long journeys have little to do with it, it's how hard you work the vehicle and how hot the exhaust gets, if your getting 31mpg and doing 55-60mph I'm guessing you are driving it too lightly and it just doesn't get hot enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Getting good fuel economy is down to driving carefully, no sudden acceleration / braking, correct gear changing etc. It doesn't mean that the MH isn't being worked hard. I think that with a MH that is approaching 4 tonne and driving at 55 - 60 MPH is working it hard especially with a 2,3 litre engine. Most commercial vans never carry the weight that a MH consists of and I would think work less hard except for the rapid acceleration and braking that some of their operatives seem to subject them to. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I'm not saying that these problems were down to driving style but I do think a bit of driving with some high revs is what engines need from time to time. The fuel economy is a bit of a trap. Let's say 5000 miles a year which gives a fuel cost of around £1000. A 10% increase in fuel consumption is £100, which is not a great deal compared with workshop costs. Incidentally, when a friend was buying a new car recently the garage, which he has used for years, advised him against getting a diesel because his usage would cause problems with the DPF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 This is exactly why I believe the decision to go all out to reduce Co2 emissions was a fallacy. I always said so and take no pleasure in being proven correct. If you improve combustion to reduce fuel consumption as a priority you will reduce the emission of all gasses and particulates. Pretty obvious really. What we have now is a combination of Turbos and EGR. Turbo's make gasses hot and therefore the engine gets hotter. The air that goes back into the engine needs to be cooled so that it is more efficient (it expands during combustion and cooler air expands more giving more power). EGR also accumulates unwanted heat that has to be dealt with and for that reason, the engine cooling systems of the vehicle have to be ultra efficient. Do you see where this is going? Modern Diesels run much cooler than older ones did and as a result; the exhaust gasses are not hot enough most of the time to passively burn off the soot and other things in the Cat or DPF. DPF's have a 'burn cycle' but even that requires engine heat as well to work effectively. The design is stupid but it is not the fault of the manufacturers. Left to their own devices they would have made engines more economical. That is sensible. The European suits that made these decisions without listening to the engineers should be lined up and shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my weekend home Posted August 8, 2014 Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 Nick thank you so much for your advice. We asked the dealer to seek a contribution but the response was no. We then went to Fiat customer relations and the good news is the motorhome goes in today and the work is being done FOC :-D I would never have though of that so thanks so much for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Which is great news, but hardly a commendation for the dealer whose reluctance to try could easily have cost you a lot of avoidable expense. A few stern words due there, I think, and possibly a change of workshop! It may be that Fiat pays a lower hourly rate than they would have charged you, but most of these firms are rated "Fiat Professional", and the guiding principle of a true "professional" is to place customer interest above their own. Something along the lines of the "oldest profession" comes to mind in this case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 That is excellent news. Please be persistent though and find out what part numbers they had to use! They will not give you a copy of the worksheet because they are not allowed to if Fiat are paying but should, albeit reluctantly explain to you what has been done. Have a pen and paper handy! This could be of great benefit to other members of this forum. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my weekend home Posted August 8, 2014 Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-08-08 11:07 AM Which is great news, but hardly a commendation for the dealer whose reluctance to try could easily have cost you a lot of avoidable expense. A few stern words due there, I think, and possibly a change of workshop! It may be that Fiat pays a lower hourly rate than they would have charged you, but most of these firms are rated "Fiat Professional", and the guiding principle of a true "professional" is to place customer interest above their own. Something along the lines of the "oldest profession" comes to mind in this case! I don't think my post was clear that they did submit a request to Fiat and copied me the response which was no. However as you say it is not necessarily in their interest to push it as we had to have the work done anyway. I am so grateful for the advice given as I would not have thought of contacting customers relations who were very good and communicated well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my weekend home Posted August 8, 2014 Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 euroserv - 2014-08-08 12:26 PM That is excellent news. Please be persistent though and find out what part numbers they had to use! They will not give you a copy of the worksheet because they are not allowed to if Fiat are paying but should, albeit reluctantly explain to you what has been done. Have a pen and paper handy! This could be of great benefit to other members of this forum. N I will do as it may help others as your advice did me. Thanks Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 euroserv - 2014-08-05 12:12 PM This is exactly why I believe the decision to go all out to reduce Co2 emissions was a fallacy. I always said so and take no pleasure in being proven correct. If you improve combustion to reduce fuel consumption as a priority you will reduce the emission of all gasses and particulates. Pretty obvious really. What we have now is a combination of Turbos and EGR. Turbo's make gasses hot and therefore the engine gets hotter. The air that goes back into the engine needs to be cooled so that it is more efficient (it expands during combustion and cooler air expands more giving more power). EGR also accumulates unwanted heat that has to be dealt with and for that reason, the engine cooling systems of the vehicle have to be ultra efficient. Do you see where this is going? Modern Diesels run much cooler than older ones did and as a result; the exhaust gasses are not hot enough most of the time to passively burn off the soot and other things in the Cat or DPF. DPF's have a 'burn cycle' but even that requires engine heat as well to work effectively. The design is stupid but it is not the fault of the manufacturers. Left to their own devices they would have made engines more economical. That is sensible. The European suits that made these decisions without listening to the engineers should be lined up and shot. Had my motorhome checked at HTC Theale (nr Reading) today. Apparently one of the sensors was faulty which they replaced and the other one was recalibrated and no other problems. Everything fine now. I must say how pleased I was with the service of HTC - they are a Fiat Commercial and DAF dealer and have numerous operating bays with equipment to lift any size of motorhome. As commercial service agents they are used to dealing with often much larger vehicles plus the usual run of commercial vans so know their work inside out. They were friendly, courteous and helpful - very quick service and booked a slot for me and did the work while I waited. It took about and hour and a half in all with nothing to pay as still under warranty (just 1 year old). I asked about servicing our motorhome and they said no problem and as we were considered as 'low mileage' they would only replace the oil and oil filter and check everything else and if other filters, etc. were found to be OK they would not change them, possibly give them a quick clean if necessary. They suggested that when we need the service carried out that we book it in just before lunch and said that there was a nice pub in the village where we could have a lunch while they service the MH and then by the time we had finished we could pick it up. Now I call this good service. From sitting in reception and listening to the 'truckers' either dropping off or picking up their vehicles, they were all treated with the same courtesy and from the conversations none seemed to be 'ripped off'. So no more trying to get one of the general Fiat dealers more local to me to do anything (not that they would accept our motorhome anyway despite showing as a Fiat Professional MH service centre) I would rather drive the extra miles to get a decent level of service. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my weekend home Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 euroserv - 2014-08-08 12:26 PM That is excellent news. Please be persistent though and find out what part numbers they had to use! They will not give you a copy of the worksheet because they are not allowed to if Fiat are paying but should, albeit reluctantly explain to you what has been done. Have a pen and paper handy! This could be of great benefit to other members of this forum. N The work done was a replacement DPF snsor and hoses. When questioned about the hoses they said these are a modification to the bracket which suggests perhaps a design fault. Please bear in mind I am not at all technical so did not know what else to ask!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Part numbers would be helpful.... If they get funny about it, just say that it's your vehicle and it now differs from the original equipment that you bought it with. You are entitled to know in what way it has been modified for your future records. Sounds obnoxious but it is sometimes the only way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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