To A Class or not to A Class?

[Guest Had Enough]

Having decided that a PVC isn't for us I'm back to a new larger 'van to be bought next year.

 

I was originally fancying the Hymer Kirby, or Exsis-i 578 as some know it, but I'm now leaning towards the 588, which still comes in a fraction under seven metres. This appears to have a slightly larger bathroom and a proper hanging wardrobe opposite.

 

However, after watching this I'm still not sure that an A Class is necessary.

 

 

We all know the horror stories regarding A Class windscreens and, as I once had to have my windscreen replaced, which only took four hours to have it done on my drive, I do worry about the inconvenience and cost if it happens on an A Class. I also prefer to use silver screens despite having Remis blinds. It takes minutes to fit the screens and I never get condensation.

 

How easy it to fit silver screens on an A Class?

 

Anyway, I have two choices, the Exsis-t 588 (coach built) or the Exsis-i A Class. Both the same length and both identical from the end of the cab to the rear of the motorhome.

 

So the only advantage of this particular A Class is the wider cab. I don't want the drop down bed and would order it without the bed and have the extra lockers, so one of the main advantages of an A Class is of no interest to me.

 

So I'm interested to know how those who've moved from a CB to an A Class view their choice. Is the A Class cab so much better that it's worth the ten thousand pounds or whatever the extra is?

 

In a fortnight I'm going to Cologne for four days on business and intend sneaking half a day off work to visit Beck's, a very large Hymer dealer. I'll be able to see for myself how they feel but I'm still interested to know the views of some of you who have an A Class.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Three things to evaluate.

 

The side facing sofa is too small for an adult, though it might be OK for a child.

 

See how well the UK passenger's seat swings to meet the table. Ours (LHD, so driver's seat) didn't meet the table square on, so I got a new table top made locally with a splayed edge that does. Irritated me, but may not bother others.

 

The swing wall in the washroom (at least on ours) is difficult to retain in the showering position, and if you hang your towels on the adjacent hooks, will tend to close on you when you try to get at them. This one may not apply to the 588.

 

If you want external screens, get the Hymer ones. Easy to fit, and they fit well. Clever design, well made, and sturdy.

 

The windscreen width is the van width, which makes placing the van generally, but especially in tight places, easy.

 

The engine bay is well protected from water ingress.

 

The combination of concertina windscreen blinds and side curtains is simple, functional, and reasonably robust.

 

The lockers around the cab in lieu of the bed are exectued to the same standard as the others, and provide excellent additional storage.

 

Of itself the cab isn't, IMO, worth the £10K extra, but the ease of driving and peace of mind in having a nice dry engine, particularly over the winter, go a long way in that direction.

 

The LHD A class headlamps are (more or less!) switchable for left hand traffic: for a T series, you'd have to get left dipping lamps fitted.

 

I have checked the cost of a replacement windscreen, and at the time I asked it was comfortably within my insurance limit. I understand it is a standard unit and should be available ex-stock - though not necessarily from Autoglass etc. However, it is inevitably more expensive than the Fiat item.

 

IMO, you'll need to specify it at 3.7T, or above. I did this, and ours is right on (in fact about 50kg over) 3.5T fully loaded. We've now clocked up 8,000 miles and I am generally very happy with it.

[Guest Had Enough]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-30 9:34 PM

 

 

IMO, you'll need to specify it at 3.7T, or above. I did this, and ours is right on (in fact about 50kg over) 3.5T fully loaded. We've now clocked up 8,000 miles and I am generally very happy with it.

 

Thank you for that very helpful response. However your last paragraph is a bit worrying. I thought that the whole point of the new Exsis range is the huge payload.

 

I know that when I add a satellite dish, solar panel, awning, extra battery, tow bar, bike rack etc.etc. that it's going to reduce but I would have hoped that I'll be able to stay under 3.5T.

 

However, I do want to be legal. I do want to carry two heavy ebikes on a strong towbar mounted rack and I do want to be able to load it up without worrying.

 

I shall now have to ask members and search the forum on the experiences of those who've gone over the magic figure and how it's impacted on their motorhoming.

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

I believe your travelling at the moment aren't you, in France. Why don't you divert up to Dusseldorf and visit the show, it on till the 7th September

 

http://www.caravan-salon.com/cipp/md_caravan/custom/pub/content,oid,413/lang,2/ticket,g_u_e_s_t/~/Facts_Figures.html

 

Dont really see the need to upgrade chassis with all the hassle and restrictions involved, if your only running 20 Kg over 3500 Kg

[Guest Had Enough]

JudgeMental - 2014-08-31 8:19 AM

 

I believe your travelling at the moment aren't you, in France. Why don't you divert up to Dusseldorf and visit the show, it on till the 7th September

 

http://www.caravan-salon.com/cipp/md_caravan/custom/pub/content,oid,413/lang,2/ticket,g_u_e_s_t/~/Facts_Figures.html

 

Dont really see the need to upgrade chassis with all the hassle and restrictions involved, if your only running 20 Kg over 3500 Kg

 

Love to but we've just arrived in Dover and we're going to a rally with friends in Dorset for all of next week.

 

But as I said, after a week at home I'm off to Cologne for four days and there's a large Hymer dealer there who has them all in stock. I'll be having a good browse.

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Had Enough - 2014-08-30 7:01 PM

 

However, after watching this I'm still not sure that an A Class is necessary.

 

 

 

Slightly OT...

 

That's a very nice looking van HE but with a "garage"(and quite a large looking one at that),coupled with a tail overhang of that length, I'd be checking out the probable axle loadings...?

 

 

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-30 9:34 PM

 

The engine bay is well protected from water ingress.

 

 

But how accessible is it?

[rupert123]

My worry with an A Class has always been what happens in a crash. How much of the original crush zones in the base vehicle remain intact. They must be compromised just with the removal of original front wings or is all this left in place under the new body, personally I would doubt it but must admit have never looked or enquired. It is the first thing I would ask about, doubt you would get an answer though.

[Brock]

Unless space is an issue, I would not pay the extra for an a-class.

 

I'm on my third A-class in 14 years [Arto for 5 years, Hymer for 8 years and this Hymer for one year, matching Brian's mileage]. The only reason we buy A-classes is that we have limited space for height and length. An A-class gives us the drop down space saving bed [really comfy - but check the weight limit]. All RHD. I've had 3 coachbuilts.

 

Never had to replace a windscreen though but had two go on a previous coachbuilt [replaced] and two on hire cars within a month last year.

 

Access to the engine bay is limited although current Hymers are better than the previous A-classes I've had.

 

Our A-class cab gives greater vision [front seat passengers definitely like the view], feels more spacious and in addition to the drop down bed, gains space by the ease with which the front seats can be used - access to the table is not a problem for us. All our a-class cabs rattled and squeaked a bit too much for my liking with the Hymer bits detracting from the style of the original Fiat cab [personal opinion].

 

Unlike Brian, I find it harder to position the van on the road and in tight spaces than my previous coachbuilts. Might be age. However, I've never hit anything in over a 100,000 miles. The side sofa was OK for my slim 25 year old son but a standard adult would not find it comfortable - facing sofa fine for one and two at a pinch. You will need to check the swing wall shower, especially if you will use it frequently. Our bathroom is small though the swing wall works for me - missus complains her "pointy bits" get in the way.

 

Hymer A-classes retain the original Fiat crash safety features. However, cab doors feel flimsy compared to Fiat's.

 

We intended buying an Exsis 504 until my missus spotted a rare B-Class 504. We bought the latter because she felt the depth of the lockers, the single level floor, kitchen about, and the overall ambience were better. The Exsis 504 was longer but not too long. Price wise there wasn't much in it. And the missus is rarely wrong.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Peter James]

An interesting Read, Many Thanks .

Brock - 2014-08-31 11:38 AM

Access to the engine bay is limited although current Hymers are better than the previous A-classes I've had.

That copncerns me more than water ingress. When I take the engine cover off my X2/50 its dry underneath. And I can whip the front panels off in half an hour to good access to it .

[tonyishuk]

I could be corrected but access to the engine bay can be a problem on some conversions even for mundane servicing.

 

Rgds

[Guest Had Enough]

That sticking mouse button again!

[Guest Had Enough]

And again!

[Guest Had Enough]

Brock - 2014-08-31 11:38 AM

 

Unless space is an issue, I would not pay the extra for an a-class.

 

 

Thanks, it's refreshing to find someone who has a particular style of 'van but is objective enough to suggest that it may not be right for someone else.

 

As we would be ordering it without the drop-down bed anyway that's one of the big advantages of an A-Class that doesn't affect us.

 

I suppose it may come down to actually sitting in the different versions when I visit the Hymer dealer in Cologne. I may well fall in love with an A-Class or then again......................!

[Guest Peter James]

I have only ever seen them with dropdown beds. What do you get in its place if you order them without the bed - can you make use of the space?

[Guest Peter James]

tonyishuk - 2014-08-31 5:23 PM

 

I could be corrected but access to the engine bay can be a problem on some conversions even for mundane servicing.

 

Rgds

 

Sounds like that could be a problem where Hymer workshops are few and far between. Wheras there must be a mechanic with experience of the base X2/50 in every town, having the same front end as commercial vans and most motorhomes.

[rupert123]

Brock - 2014-08-31 11:38 AM

 

 

Hymer A-classes retain the original Fiat crash safety features. However, cab doors feel flimsy compared to Fiat's.

 

 

 

They cannot as the doors and A pillars are an integral part of the cab strength, would certainly bother me.

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2014-08-31 10:17 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-30 9:34 PM

 

The engine bay is well protected from water ingress.

 

 

But how accessible is it?

Adequate, I'd say, but no better than that. The inner wings are retained as standard, so those jobs that require access via removal of the inner wing should be no worse than with the standard cab. All normal servicing points can apparently be reached without significantly increased difficulty.

 

At least, the "Fiat Professional Authorised Repairer" garage who recently did an oil change and a recall on ours, who are also a "Fiat motorhome specialist", were happy enough to do the jobs, didn't pull long faces, and didn't charge a premium for labour because jobs were more time consuming due to access problems. Access to the underside, brakes etc, is obviously no different to the standard vehicle.

[Robinhood]

Having had a selection of 'vans over the years, including my previous Rapido A Class, my answer would be no A class.

 

That is, of course, based on a certain interpretation of your circumstances, (which may be flawed), and aligning the same with mine.

 

I've looked at the Exsis-I and Exsis-T ranges, and can see little or no advantage for the former over the latter, given the similarity of layouts (except for the, not-needed, drop-down bed) available in both. IMO there are disadvantages in cost, construction, maintainability,access and security in having the A Class, which are offset (IMO) only slightly by a more "panoramic" driving experience, and slightly more elbow room on-site (though I prefer the Exsis-T cab as a place to sit if the skylight is fitted).

 

My Rapido A class was bought to provide good separate sleeping conditions for the two of us and my youngest son, in a restricted length in which the drop-down bed came in to play. It worked well for us for 5 seasons, and I liked it as a 'van. The driving experience was no worse than a standard coachbuilt (in fact, slightly better because of straight sides, front to back, and mirrors at the extremities), but I got very close to needing a new mirror unit (hit by another motorhome not looking where it was going, and about £900 replacement), the windscreen had a chip that was marginal for the MOT, but my tester passed it twice (supply and fit would have been a long wait and significant price), and some of the Rapido front bodywork wasn't as good as it should have been. (Incidentally, my experience was that the Fiat chassis-cowl didn't age as well as the previous chassis-cab I had (which may have been a particular problem with that conversion, but it looked more like the basic Fiat underpinnings to me.

 

When the opportunity arose to move to a largely 2-berth 'van (with an occasional 3rd bed) then an A class never entered the equation.

As I would expect you would be buying new, the "waterproofness" of the engine compartment would hopefully be no problem, as the redesigned X/290 scuttle looks to have resolved problems in this area.

 

I'm quite surprised at Brian's comments on uprating to 3700kg, as, like you, I was under the impression that the Exsis models raison d'être was to remain below 3500kg. ( I don't really like the idea of upgrading the non-maxi chassis above 3500kg anyway). Whilst I like the concept of the narrower body (hence my current 'van) I think I'd go "full fat" B-Class (or T-Class) if I needed to go over 3500kg.

I know Brian has the comfortmatic gearbox,(only c17kg?) but I'd be interested in what additional options he has which have caused him to need to uprate.

 

Having said all that, I know some people simply have to have an A Class as they are seen as the aristocrats of the motorhome world, and who am I to criticise, after all, I had one. Maybe it's just a phase you have to go through if you can. I did, I enjoyed it, but it's passed. ;-)

 

I had a look at an Exsis-T 414; less than 6m and everything I wanted (oven, large fridge, garage big enough for two bikes). The washroom would have been a bit of a pain (but given Brian's comments on the swing-out shower wall, possibly not too much of a compromise), but the bed access, with the oven/fridge option, was too compromised (and there were some odd door clashes which were already causing damage on the display 'van). Pity really, so near, but so far.

 

Robinhood, News at 10, in a very rainy Nationalpark Bayerische Wald.

[Brian Kirby]

rupert123 - 2014-08-31 10:32 AM

 

My worry with an A Class has always been what happens in a crash. How much of the original crush zones in the base vehicle remain intact. They must be compromised just with the removal of original front wings or is all this left in place under the new body, personally I would doubt it but must admit have never looked or enquired. It is the first thing I would ask about, doubt you would get an answer though.

Hymer do crash test their A Class vans, and there is a "U Tube" video of the test somewhere on the net. It is the usual full frontal into a concrete block from memory, and the vehicle appears to suffer little damage. However, I doubt anyone would drove it away afterwards! I don't think I have seen a 3/4 frontal, which would probably be a bit more revealing.

 

But then, how it fares it will depend what hits one/one hits. I'd prefer not to head-butt a 40 tonne truck at any speed - especially if the truck were also moving - in any vehicle, but especially a coachbuilt motorhome - whether luton, low profile, or A Class!

 

If one sets aside head on crashes and looks at sideswipes and back enders, there would, IMO, be little to no difference. Motorhomes are made of chicken poop and lard, so if you want a vehicle that will absorb impacts in the same way that standard, mass produced, cars and vans will, buy a PVC!

 

Personally, I have great reservations about the performance of the cab element of a coachbuilt, because the roof of the cab is cut away, so reducing its strength, and many are based on the platform-cab chassis - which is just the floorpan of the van with all bodywork aft of the cab removed. I would imagine that these must have far less strength in the area just behind the cab doors than the van from which they are derived, and would be liable to fold at that point under impact. What the consequences of that for those at the front might be I can't imagine.

 

It is a valid concern, but I don't think the A Class vehicles are that much more vulnerable than anything other than a PVC. I think they are all bad vehicles in which to have major accidents, not least because of the quantity of gear they contain, not all of which is guaranteed to stay in place in an accident. As they love to shout in pantomimes, "its BEHIND you!!" :-D

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-31 6:54 PM

The inner wings are retained as standard, so those jobs that require access via removal of the inner wing should be no worse than with the standard cab..

 

Thanks for the reply but I don't understand that bit. You have to remove the outer wings to get access through to the inner wings - the Hymer panels rather than the far more familiar Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen panels. Can the Hymer panels be removed to get access to the inner wings like on the standard van?

[Hawcara]

Brian touched on the payload issue. With the Exsis the big selling point is just that?

What sort of stuff brings the payload down so much in the Exsis?

We have a coahbuilt and still have a fair amount of payload, even with full fuel and water tanks.

:-D

[Brian Kirby]

Had Enough - 2014-08-31 8:01 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-30 9:34 PM

 

 

IMO, you'll need to specify it at 3.7T, or above. I did this, and ours is right on (in fact about 50kg over) 3.5T fully loaded. We've now clocked up 8,000 miles and I am generally very happy with it.

 

Thank you for that very helpful response. However your last paragraph is a bit worrying. I thought that the whole point of the new Exsis range is the huge payload.

 

I know that when I add a satellite dish, solar panel, awning, extra battery, tow bar, bike rack etc.etc. that it's going to reduce but I would have hoped that I'll be able to stay under 3.5T.

 

However, I do want to be legal. I do want to carry two heavy ebikes on a strong towbar mounted rack and I do want to be able to load it up without worrying.

 

I shall now have to ask members and search the forum on the experiences of those who've gone over the magic figure and how it's impacted on their motorhoming.

The best answer to this would be for you to download the Hymer priced catalogue, which also contains the desirable technical information. Hymer fit 100 litre water tanks (more or less), but calculate their MIRO with only 20 litres on board. There is a modified dump valve that removes any surplus above 20 litres, that they assume you will use before driving. That allows the remaining 80 potential litres to be converted to "payload". They quote their weights on the lightest combination of chassis-transmission-engine. They also quote weights on the "bog standard" conversion spec. I think they also quote the MIRO at 90% fuel, and with a single 90% full 11kg aluminium German gas cylinder. One then needs to calculate the MIRO if the water tank is full, the fuel tank full, and one carries two steel 13kg gas cylinders.

 

Helpfully, that catalogue also lists the weights of all the various options as well as their costs, so that one can calculate a more realistic MIRO for the vehicle built to the spec one wants.

 

Having done that, and knowing how much we add to the van with our bits and pieces, and then adding in the various corrections for spare wheel, comfort pack, fibreglass roof, omitted bed, comfortmatic box etc, etc, I concluded that we should be very close to 3.5 tonnes. So, to escape having to travel with one eye always on weight, I also specified 3.7 tonnes. This is purely a paper exercise, but it comfortably retains legality. In fact, if fully laden, we run very close to the 3.5 tonnes, presently at about 3,550kg. You can get the van built on the "heavy" chassis at up to 4.25 tonnes, and at alternative weights between. The front/rear balance on ours is good, with both axles, and so all tyres, well short of their individual limits.

[Guest Had Enough]

Robinhood - 2014-08-31 7:20 PM

 

Having had a selection of 'vans over the years, including my previous Rapido A Class, my answer would be no A class.

 

Thanks. This of course is why I asked the question. I'm not interested in the snob appeal of an A-Class and when I saw the video of the T-588 it started me thinking on the merits of both types.

 

I am sorely tempted though, whichever I buy, to go for the 3850kg upgrade. I'm aware of the drawbacks of going over the magic figure but with a solar panel, extra battery, satellite dish, awning, towbar for my quite heavy ebike rack and two ebikes, like Brian I don't want to have to worry about exceeding my payload limit.

 

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-31 7:45 PM

 

The best answer to this would be for you to download the Hymer priced catalogue, which also contains the desirable technical information.

 

I'd love one! So far though I haven't found it. Is it on the UK or German site? I shall now have another search.

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

Ps Searched! Just downloaded the German one but the UK one doesn't even list the Exsis T. I'll keep searching.