Child seats and zero seat belts?

[Hymer694]

Hi, I've just brought my first MH which is a 1990 Hymer 694 that has two longitudinal benches running from behind the cab seats to the middle of the vehicle. There isn't a dinnette as such as there is an adjustable table that sits between the benches and drops down to make up a double bed. The problem is that we have twin 2 year old boys that need to be transported in car seats and I have no way of anchoring them as the only seat belts are on the drive/passenger seats. Has anyone got any suggestions? Thanks. Paul.

[w1ntersun]

Hi, Side facing seat belts are NOT RECOMMENDED as all seats with belts must be forward facing to be effective. Richard

[michele]

Wintersun , Why are they not recommended ? We have the two disabled children on them as this was the only way we could do it. We were under the conclusion that this was correct ,having none was not an option for us as we could not say sit down . They would not understand the comand. The little one we even use her car chair on it . What is the reason Please. We were even told by the dealer that sideway's was not even compulsary but I insisted no seatbelt's no sale Paul, ours are anchored under the long benches

[Hymer694]

I think there is a general fear of side facing seats belts. The first reaction is always that they are dangerous. I can accept that they aren't ideal but they are better than having children fly through the window screen. Anyway, the kids will be in car seats with five point harnesses and heat restraints. I just need a way of anchoring them. If it is something a dealer will fit, then I'll try contacting one or two. I am expecting them to shy away from fitting them because they are so disliked. Let's not forget, in any side impact, a normal seat belt becomes a side facing seat belt. If I saw a car about to T-bone me at a junction I doubt I would feel like taking my seat belt off! Paul.

[Hymer694]

Oh yes, I picked it up today (our Hymer) and I've just read an English translation of the Hymer manual. In it, it shows the two layouts offered in the 694 (in ~1990). The other one to mine has what looks like a round table and a single armchair plus one longitudinal bench so that wouldn't be any better than my twin benches. I was considering getting it converted to a four seat dinnette layout. That would allow be two front and two rear facing seats that could be easily belted. I suppose it is still an option but it would need a to be built from scratch or another interior adapted to fit. Paul.

[Bill]

As I understand it the probem is with side-facing seats rather than the belts. The "suspension" that connects the brain to the skull is designed to handle fore-and-aft impacts, not sideways ones, which explains why side-swipe accidents are much more likely to cause brain damage than head-on ones.

[david lloyd]

[QUOTE]Bill - 2006-09-24 10:23 AM As I understand it the probem is with side-facing seats rather than the belts. The "suspension" that connects the brain to the skull is designed to handle fore-and-aft impacts, not sideways ones, which explains why side-swipe accidents are much more likely to cause brain damage than head-on ones. [/QUOTE] That's true Bill but, in addition, if lap belts (as opposed to lap and diagonal shoulder belts) are used these can cause much more serious injuries in any forward accident, especially when used on side facing seats. Lap/diagonal belts are designed to restrain the upper body and stop the lap part of the belt itself from causing significant injuries to the pelvic/midriff regions. However, it has to be said that they are indeed better than no belt at all, even on side facing seats. Regards, david

[michele]

[QUOTE]david lloyd - 2006-09-25 3:14 PM [QUOTE]Bill - 2006-09-24 10:23 AM As I understand it the probem is with side-facing seats rather than the belts. The "suspension" that connects the brain to the skull is designed to handle fore-and-aft impacts, not sideways ones, which explains why side-swipe accidents are much more likely to cause brain damage than head-on ones. [/QUOTE] David, I am not sure if I am right or wrong but, like you say no seat belt is not an option . Especially in my case as the childen just do not understand like toddlers. We have never had no problem .touch wood . they actually use a pillow and fold up their leg's to lie down & seem to love travelling like this. That's true Bill but, in addition, if lap belts (as opposed to lap and diagonal shoulder belts) are used these can cause much more serious injuries in any forward accident, especially when used on side facing seats. Lap/diagonal belts are designed to restrain the upper body and stop the lap part of the belt itself from causing significant injuries to the pelvic/midriff regions. However, it has to be said that they are indeed better than no belt at all, even on side facing seats. Regards, david[/QUOTE]

[michele]

Sorry I have not a clue how all the quote's became mixed up ;-)

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Michele, I understand that your husband is a police officer. May I suggest that he gets the run down on the effect of side fixed seat belts and the serious injuries that these can cause from the Police accident investigators. A posting of his findings would I am sure be interesting to all on the forum. While I agree that having some form of restraint is better than none at all the choice seems to be between correct forward or back facing seatbelts or very dangerous side facing restraints. Personally if I could not get a safe installation I would either not risk my grandchildren/family/friends or change the vehicle to one in which I could carry passengers safely. Regards, Mike.

[Mel B]

Mike I must admit I agree with you, but I think I gleam from Michele's posting that she uses them as a way of stopping the children from pottering around in the van whilst travelling, rather than just as a safety restraint in the normal sense of a seat-belt, if it's a case of them pottering around or keeping to one place, then I can see the sense in using them, but for me I'd only use forward or rearward facing lap/diagonal belts. Each to their own - everyone chooses the van than suits them most, sometimes it's not possible to get everything you want in a van so compromises have to be made, some people's compromises are not what others would choose. If we were all the same, they wouldn't bring out the variety of motorhomes for us to all drool over would they!

[Brambles]

I have very strong opinions on the issue of side and forward facing seats. We should give any child the maximum protection we are aware of and afraid that is forward or rear facing seats and not sideways. If you are purchasing a Motorhome and know you will be carrying children, who really have no say in the matter, then you should only buy a motorhome with suitable seats and belts. There is no compromise in my book. If an adult chooses to use a side facing seat then that is their choice. The injuries caused by an accident with side facing seats can be horrendous. I personally to not think there is any debate on the subject. All passengers should be in forward or rear facing seats and belted. No compromise. Jon.

[JohnP]

Have a look at www.ukmotorhomes.net/faqs.shtml and then click on seat belts. This may help clarify some points.

[Hymer694]

Has anyone actually got any advice on possible solutions to my situation? Thanks. Paul.

[michele]

Hi Guy's When we first bought a MH, new to it all we just went to look. Typical women I bought there and then on the spot. Yes we had been looking for quite sometime at MMM and had a pretty good idea what it was we wanted. This was the Bessacarr because of the open space it afforded us in the lounge dining area. I needed to be able to change nappies and put a travel cot up . I had no way of being able to control the little one who wakes at four oclock. I could not put her to bed and hope that she didn't wake up whilst we were snoring. (horrible vision's of her falling down the step hurting herself) This was the only van that gave me the space to do all this ,and still be able to get up inthe night go to the loo or get into the fridge without moving her cot. As it is she takes sleeping medicine everynight. after years of this she still wakes anyway another story. We did look at quite a few other van's but nothing that afforded us the space. Most of the forward facing ones gave us the seat's as you all say but I couldn't fit the travel cot . When we bought it had no seat belt's . On here or in MMM there was an article on side way travel. We read that it was not against the law & this is why they did not have to have sideway seat belt's. I was rather concerned as we have never ever brought our children up without any form of seat belt since birth and at 18 my daughter now training to be an apprentice Farrier last week said mum the trainer want's me to get in the van without a seat belt (apparently brand new with plastic seat covers he had not threaded the seat belt's through) she said I don't feel safe...) It's not something we take for granted and we certainly don't mess with. Anyway's I said to the salesman WHY NO BELT's he said you don't have to have them . I replied politely no sale then ,they were fitted . I was not aware that we were breaking any law's . like Melb say's These children being 13 & 11 only function at toddler age if that I have noway of making them understand about sittting down . For the little one she is a headbanger and that is the reason we got rid of it . Swapped for a Hobby she was going to put the window out as when she bang's it's for real. The hobby did not suit as this 6birth is in essence a 5 birth we could not swing a cat . So we went back to a Bessacar and felt like we could move again . I have to carry an awful lot of stuff. Wheelchairs buggy's drug's & contraptions. so yes sometimes the belt's are just used for feeding. But as the little one has now grown I cannot fit her in a travel cot (well I can but she can't actually streatch out ) she now sleep's on the long bench but she has to sleep with the seatbelt on . Then I still have the peace of mind knowing she is safe .. I cannot see any other way. Because of the uniqueness of these children whom are disabled yet mobile ..If that makes sense. My husband Yes you are right but unfortunately he work's on the crime desk and has no dealing's with the Black Rat's traffic cop's . :-( So Now I also use her travel chair . I should worry do you know that I cannot even with all the help out there for disabled find a organisation that can actually fit a chair in the car for us. (Work that one out ) crazy world. :-(

[Mike Chapman]

Mel B, I find it amazing that any of us have to compromise SAFETY to get a motor caravan layout that we want/need. In these days of technology and science why do Manufacturers of Motor Caravans (or indeed any passenger vehicles like coaches and buses) not provide safe belted seats for all who are to be carried. In the case of Motor Caravans I have never understood why a vehicle sold as, for example a 4 berth, has only 2 or 3 belted seats. Some manufacturers can provide belted seats equal to the number of berths so why not all. Perhaps with the new seat belt laws they will now have to. Michele, If you felt that I was having a pop at you it was certainly not my intention and you most certainly do not have to justify anything to me. If that was how it came over then I most humbly apologise. I have considerable experience with transporting disabled persons with both the local Primary Care Trust and Red Cross and my wife has been disabled since 1971 so I share your concerns in finding the safest method. May I suggest that a conversation with Rod Brotherwood of Brotherwood Automobility Ltd 01935 872603 may assist you in getting the answers to the questions you raised, he is very knowledgeable. In the early days of my wifes disability we met him at a motor show and he was very helpful and approachable. Regards, Mike.

[michele]

Mike no you never upset me I didn't take it wrong ... obviously just the way I have explained it back to you all, no appologie needed. I think it is terrible that as you say in this day and age no one can help ,because with the little one she wriggle's so has to have a harness like flight suit fitted between her leg's or she get's out of the bottom on the floor . But yet to find a company than can actually fir one to the back seat of any car (because they are bench seat's they can't seem to manage it ) so totally stuck I am. ;-)

[Hymer694]

Michele, I'm not familiar with these seats that you are refering to...but, Mothercare sell ISOFIX kits so you can add ISOFIX capabilities to a vehicle that didn't have them as standard. If Mothercare sell them I presume lots of car places would - possibly even Halfords although I've never checked. Do these seats offer ISOFIX fittings? If so, get someone to install the mounts and the seat just snaps onto them. They are super safe because you can't get it wrong (unlike threading seat belts through child seats) and they are anchored onto the chassis of the vehicle. The safest places in any care is inside an ISOFIX child seat. Even if it is facing sideway ;-) I'm thinking of finding a coachbuilder whom may be prepared to weld some posts to the chassis floor which will become the mounts for ISOFIX or get some standard belts fitted - but they would be side facing. The alternative is to remove the interior and get it totally refitted. Have I bought the wrong MH? Possibly, but Hymer 694's are quite unique and there isn't anything like it for the same money that I'm aware of. Its a 14k 1990 by the way before people start listing 30k plus A-classes.... Anyway, safety is a relative thing. MHs must be very safe otherwise the insurance wouldn't be so cheap. Paul.

[michele]

Hymer , where I have the problem is the 13 year old does not need a seat the law say's up to 13 . The 11 year old is now to big for a seat ,but cannot fit on a booster seat . She just get's out of the bottom and end's up on the floor not good when she is having a fit . What is ISOFIX Please what does that mean ? cheer's

[michele]

Brambles , Just a thought what about LRT on the buses side facing . had more trouble with people forward facing hiting the bar in front then I ever did with the sideward long benches . They just seemed to spring into each other . Them buses are still out there. Seen many a child on mothers lap wack the seat infront no teeth left... not saying it's right to be honest I'm totally confused with it all now. (?)

[Hymer694]

Isofix is a pair of little claws on the rear of the child seat and a 'n' shaped bracket fitted to the car's rear seats in between the seat back and the seat base. It simple snaps on and off the brackets. I saw this on the thinkroadsafet.gov.uk website: 15. My vehicle has sideways facing seats in the rear. Does that make a difference? Yes! Some vehicles such as camper vans and four-wheel drive vehicles are fitted with sideways facing rear seats. A child restraint in a sideways facing seat does not meet the legal requirements. A child restraint has to be fitted to an approved anchorage, which does not include a seat belt on a sideways facing seat. Therefore a child restraint cannot be used on such a seat. They define a child restraint as a child seat or booster seat/cushion. Also: Children under 3 years MUST use the child restraint appropriate for their weight in all cars, vans and other goods vehicles, with the single exception for the rear of taxis. They cannot travel otherwise. This means for example that they may not travel in cars, vans or goods vehicles which do not have seat belts installed. So, I must fit belts and they can't be side facing if I want to take my kids. Paul.

[docted]

Paul TRy Peter Hambilton on 01772 315078 he may be able to convert one of your side facers to a dinette and fit seat belts to enable you to take the little ones with you. Good luck Docted

[Hymer694]

[QUOTE]docted - 2006-09-29 1:18 PM Paul TRy Peter Hambilton on 01772 315078 he may be able to convert one of your side facers to a dinette and fit seat belts to enable you to take the little ones with you. Good luck Docted[/QUOTE] They (Hymer Direct/Hambilton Engineeering) seem to be universally recommended. However, their guess - without seeing the vehicle - was in the region of 2-2.5k. I think that is a little excessive for some plywood, sponge and four lap belts. I'm trying panel van converters and a local coachbuilder next. Paul.

[Dave Newell]

Paul, Converting a side facing sealt into a dinette with an acceptable seatbelt structure requires a bit more than just some plywood and foam! The seat belt would be worthless if it were fitted to an ordinary wooden box framed seat because in the event of an accident the seat would almost certainly collapse. The seat belts will require a substantial steel structure to be fabricated and securely fitted (ideally bolted through to the chassis). This all takes man hours and that is where the largest part of the bill will be. To design, fabricate and fit the frame will likely take 20 plus hours. The conversion of the dinette seating will likely take as much time again. I don't know what their hourly rate is but it's unlikely to be less than £35 per hour. 40 hours at £35 per hour is £1400. Add in materials and you can see where £2000-£2500 comes from as a rough estimate. D.

[carebear]

When my kids were small now 27 / 23 our car seat was bolted to the floor of the boot, now thats what i call secure fitting. I am not keen on the way they got the seat belt system today, Makro sell car seats for £20 OR SO THEY HAVE IN PREVIOUS MONTHS, our Son paid over £100 for the seat our 1year old grand daughter got, how do you justify the safety of that. to a £20 model. We were asked by our van insurers how many forward facing seats we have, if we had an accident with more travelling than the seatbelts to suit, how would we fair against them.