Steve928 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Rayjsj - 2014-10-09 4:12 PM No one has actually answered my question, unfortunately I cannot alter my Driveway(It's Steep,AND I have to reverse up it), and Autotrail do not convert onto Mercedes Sprinter bases ( providing a Torque converter auto) any more. So ? do I relpace my van with one that has a Comfortmatic gearbox ? and if i do and 'the little robot' burns out the clutch trying to reverse up my driveway, who pays ?? the' little Fiat Robot' in the guise of my 3 year warranty ? or me ? Ray oops ! I mentioned 'Reverse'. It sounds like the Comfortmatic is a nice piece of kit overall (I haven't tried one), but in any particular marginal manoeuvering situation such as you describe it is unlikely to be able to match that remarkable combination of eyes, ears, nose, brain, and pedal feet that a skilled driver possesses. It simply doesn't have the requisite number of sensors and inputs to determine exactly what is going on and how best to handle a problem situation. It doesn't know that the clutch is starting to smell, or that it's going uphill, or even how far you have to go.. As to the warranty question - well it's best not to have to need one. As in the other recent thread concerning damp and warranties, who eventually foots the bill is a minor point to my mind. The inconvenience, stress and worry of all the arguing/negotiating and then the handing over of your pride and joy to a bunch of unknowns for an indeterminate period of time means that, to me at least, avoiding the need for warranty claims and buying kit that does the job well is paramount. If you have any doubts that a Comfortmatic would be up to the job them simply don't go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 StuartO - 2014-10-09 4:42 PM Rayjsj - 2014-10-09 4:12 PM Rayjsj - 2014-10-05 5:55 PM As the Clutch is integral in the Comformatic set-up ( ie The Driver does not choose to operate the clutch,the computer does) does that mean that the Clutch linings are Included in the 3 year warranty now ? After all, they were only left out of the Warranty because 'Driving style' could affect clutch wear, that is now not the case. Any comments on this ? Ray No one has actually answered my question, unfortunately I cannot alter my Driveway(It's Steep,AND I have to reverse up it), and Autotrail do not convert onto Mercedes Sprinter bases ( providing a Torque converter auto) any more. So ? do I relpace my van with one that has a Comfortmatic gearbox ? and if i do and 'the little robot' burns out the clutch trying to reverse up my driveway, who pays ?? the' little Fiat Robot' in the guise of my 3 year warranty ? or me ? Ray oops ! I mentioned 'Reverse'. You could try asking a motorhome dealer if the new MH he wants to sell you can cope with reversing up your steep drive and on the strength of his assurance you could then try rejecting the vehicle as unfit for purpose and demand your money back. You would need a record of his assurance to achieve this and he might back off from giving it if you wave a sound recorder under his nose. He might, if he's an experienced salesman who smells the rat your are presenting him with, duck the question anyway. You could also demand an answer from Fiat about the clutch-under-warranty question, and they might give you the answer you want, but I wouldn't hold your breath while waiting for it. Vehicle suppliers just don't guarantee specific things like that. My 2006 Fiat with a manual gearbox judders like hell if it's asked to reverse up any sort of slope and the clutch starts smoking and smelling uf I do, so I try very hard to avoid doing so. MHs are always operating close to their maxium weight and reversing up a slope is bound to be hard work for them. The reverse gear of the Ducato power unit under my bonnet seems to me to be too high a ratio for the job. Later models might be different but reversing a heavily loaded MH up a slope as the routine way of parking it strikes me as an unrealistic aim. Either change your house, install a winch system to haul it up the slope or arrange to store your MH elsewhere. Part of the revised specification of the latest Ducato X290 is a lower final-drive ratio for ‘Maxi’ chassis fitted with the 3.0litre powerplant and (presumably) this ratio-revision will apply similarly to the 3.0litre/‘Maxi’ chassis Comfortmatic variant. Removing a driver’s clutch-operation from the reversing equation will only go so far and it is naive to expect a Comfortmatic transmission to be immune to abuse. Although the Comfortmatic system should better protect its clutch, care will still be needed starting (in either direction) on a really steep incline. As it’s inevitably trickier to drive backwards rather than forwards (and I expect reverse will still be higher than 1st despite the final-drive change) the type of situation Ray faces would still demand care. It might be easier backing a Comfortmatic-equipped motorhome up a steep incline than doing this with a manual version, but driving technique will still be important. I’m sure I could fry a Comfortmatic clutch in a couple of minutes if I chose to be brutally mechanically unsympathetic, despite the ‘little Fiat Robot’ doing its level best. That’s why Fiat won’t treat a Comfortmatic transmission differently from a manual one when it comes to warranty conditions. Besides the house-changing, winch and storage suggestions, choosing a manufacturer other than Auto-Trail must surely be an option? Although Auto-Trail (and Rapido for that matter) have dropped the Mercedes base, there are still motorhome manufacturers building on the Sprinter and offering a torque-converter transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-10-09 5:33 PM StuartO - 2014-10-09 4:42 PM Rayjsj - 2014-10-09 4:12 PM Rayjsj - 2014-10-05 5:55 PM As the Clutch is integral in the Comformatic set-up ( ie The Driver does not choose to operate the clutch,the computer does) does that mean that the Clutch linings are Included in the 3 year warranty now ? After all, they were only left out of the Warranty because 'Driving style' could affect clutch wear, that is now not the case. Any comments on this ? Ray No one has actually answered my question, unfortunately I cannot alter my Driveway(It's Steep,AND I have to reverse up it), and Autotrail do not convert onto Mercedes Sprinter bases ( providing a Torque converter auto) any more. So ? do I relpace my van with one that has a Comfortmatic gearbox ? and if i do and 'the little robot' burns out the clutch trying to reverse up my driveway, who pays ?? the' little Fiat Robot' in the guise of my 3 year warranty ? or me ? Ray oops ! I mentioned 'Reverse'. You could try asking a motorhome dealer if the new MH he wants to sell you can cope with reversing up your steep drive and on the strength of his assurance you could then try rejecting the vehicle as unfit for purpose and demand your money back. You would need a record of his assurance to achieve this and he might back off from giving it if you wave a sound recorder under his nose. He might, if he's an experienced salesman who smells the rat your are presenting him with, duck the question anyway. You could also demand an answer from Fiat about the clutch-under-warranty question, and they might give you the answer you want, but I wouldn't hold your breath while waiting for it. Vehicle suppliers just don't guarantee specific things like that. My 2006 Fiat with a manual gearbox judders like hell if it's asked to reverse up any sort of slope and the clutch starts smoking and smelling uf I do, so I try very hard to avoid doing so. MHs are always operating close to their maxium weight and reversing up a slope is bound to be hard work for them. The reverse gear of the Ducato power unit under my bonnet seems to me to be too high a ratio for the job. Later models might be different but reversing a heavily loaded MH up a slope as the routine way of parking it strikes me as an unrealistic aim. Either change your house, install a winch system to haul it up the slope or arrange to store your MH elsewhere. Part of the revised specification of the latest Ducato X290 is a lower final-drive ratio for ‘Maxi’ chassis fitted with the 3.0litre powerplant and (presumably) this ratio-revision will apply similarly to the 3.0litre/‘Maxi’ chassis Comfortmatic variant. Removing a driver’s clutch-operation from the reversing equation will only go so far and it is naive to expect a Comfortmatic transmission to be immune to abuse. Although the Comfortmatic system should better protect its clutch, care will still be needed starting (in either direction) on a really steep incline. As it’s inevitably trickier to drive backwards rather than forwards (and I expect reverse will still be higher than 1st despite the final-drive change) the type of situation Ray faces would still demand care. It might be easier backing a Comfortmatic-equipped motorhome up a steep incline than doing this with a manual version, but driving technique will still be important. I’m sure I could fry a Comfortmatic clutch in a couple of minutes if I chose to be brutally mechanically unsympathetic, despite the ‘little Fiat Robot’ doing its level best. That’s why Fiat won’t treat a Comfortmatic transmission differently from a manual one when it comes to warranty conditions. Besides the house-changing, winch and storage suggestions, choosing a manufacturer other than Auto-Trail must surely be an option? Although Auto-Trail (and Rapido for that matter) have dropped the Mercedes base, there are still motorhome manufacturers building on the Sprinter and offering a torque-converter transmission. Thanks Derek, I haven't 'Fried' the clutch on the Savannah yet !! but it is a bit disconcerting having to reverse at such high revs(without slipping the clutch 'TOO much) to avoid it stalling, it is probably only a matter of time,before I do burn it out, or hit something whilst reversing at too high a speed !!. I delayed buying an X250 based van because of all the 'Andy Stothert' pointed out problems with the 'Too high reverse gear' fitted on the early models. My alternative was my 2005 Autocruise on the previous chassis, which managed to reverse up my drive without any similar 'High Jinks'. I was hoping that by leaving it until 2012 the 'Reversing problem' would be resolved? How hard can it be to design a gearbox that can reverse a vehicle up a hill without Drama ? Anyway,I like the look of the new Lunar Roadstar PVC, on a Mercedes base, perhaps that will have an ' Torque Converter Auto box' as an option ? I'll have a look. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I’m sure you mean Lunar "Landstar”. This does indeed have the option of a torque-converter automatic transmission as described here http://tinyurl.com/nt4jqun It’s not hard to design a gearbox with ratios suitable for a motorhome: the snag is that the chassis used by UK/European motorhome manufacturers aren’t really purpose-designed for that purpose (whatever Fiat may claim!) and this is reflected in their transmissions. Laika (and some other converters) used to build on an Iveco RWD chassis with a 6-speed transmission that had ‘truck’ ratios. This was great for hill-starts for heavily-loaded large motorhome models, but much less good on motorways. In fact contemporary reviews of Laikas often observed that 1st gear was so low that it was rarely needed. I must say, though, that I’ve never understood why it seems quite common to have a reverse ratio higher than the 1st-gear one - that just sounds like perversity to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Rayjsj - 2014-10-09 4:12 PM Rayjsj - 2014-10-05 5:55 PM As the Clutch is integral in the Comformatic set-up ( ie The Driver does not choose to operate the clutch,the computer does) does that mean that the Clutch linings are Included in the 3 year warranty now ? After all, they were only left out of the Warranty because 'Driving style' could affect clutch wear, that is now not the case. Any comments on this ? Ray No one has actually answered my question, unfortunately I cannot alter my Driveway(It's Steep,AND I have to reverse up it), and Autotrail do not convert onto Mercedes Sprinter bases ( providing a Torque converter auto) any more. So ? do I relpace my van with one that has a Comfortmatic gearbox ? and if i do and 'the little robot' burns out the clutch trying to reverse up my driveway, who pays ?? the' little Fiat Robot' in the guise of my 3 year warranty ? or me ? Ray oops ! I mentioned 'Reverse'. Ray, what the Fiat warranty on mine says regarding exclusions is: "The Warranty does not cover defects caused by normal wear and tear. In particular, by way of example but not limited to, it does not cover the replacement or top-up of oil and other fluids and replacement of the following components: spark plugs, heater plugs, filters, service/transmission belts, clutch, brake discs and pads, rear brake shoes and drums, shock absorbers, fuses, bulbs, windscreen and rear window wiper blades, etc." There is no addendum to the warranty in the Comfortmatic supplement. So, not surprisingly IMO, the clutch on a comfortmatic is not covered by the warranty. However, contrary to an earlier post, there is a warning notice that will flash up, accompanied by beeps (always the beeps! :-)), to say if the clutch is overheating. This, inevitably, will arise after the clutch has already overheated. BTW, I wasn't being facetious when I said your solutions are a less steep drive or a sludge stirrer Sprinter. Doing as you describe you will, sooner or later, fry your clutch. Motorhomes are heavy, yours among the heavier size for size, and steep uphill starts place considerable stress on clutches. Doing this in a confined space means the manoeuvre has to be done carefully and slowly, and that, in turn, under the circumstances you describe, means extensive clutch slip, which again in turn, means increased heat and accelerated clutch wear. From this there is no escape and, as the comfortmaitc uses a standard clutch, its rate of wear under the same conditions will be broadly the same as for a manual transmission. The electronics and servos only do what you do, they don't/can't alter the laws of physics. Live with what you have, move house, put your van into storage, or change your van for an auto Sprinter base, really are your available options, as I see it. Unless you have a mate with a tractor who can tow your van out when you want to go. :-) Not what you wanted to hear, I accept, but unless someone else has an alternative wheeze to offer, I think that is where you are. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Brian. You don't have to start the vehicle in first gear. I turn on the ignition and change into neutral and then start. That avoids the annoying bleeps you receive when starting in first gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Haven't tried that, Mike, but it somehow seems a very small difference. If one stops the engine in neutral, it beeps. OTOH, if one stops the engine in gear, the van is then "happy". So the default starting position is that the box should be in gear. Having turned on the ignition one could do as you do, and select neutral before activating the starter, or as I do and activate the starter before selecting neutral. Neither approach results in beeping, and peace reigns. However, if you do either without having selected neutral, a short while later the beeps will break out. I just don't understand why one is coerced into what I consider bad practise, which is to turn off the engine with a gear selected. Why not instead programme the box to favour neutral? Then the start routine would correspond with what one (or at least I) normally do. Place box in neutral, and then turn off engine. Start engine and then select gear. It isn't a major problem, just a minor irritant, because our car is manual, and I occasionally do the wrong thing in the wrong place if I'm preoccupied with something else when getting in. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-10 4:20 PM I just don't understand why one is coerced into what I consider bad practise, which is to turn off the engine with a gear selected. Why not instead programme the box to favour neutral? Then the start routine would correspond with what one (or at least I) normally do. Place box in neutral, and then turn off engine. Start engine and then select gear. I always leave a vehicle parked in gear, even when not on a hill. The Highway Code says this: 252 Parking on hills. If you park on a hill you should: park close to the kerb and apply the handbrake firmly select a forward gear and turn your steering wheel away from the kerb when facing uphill select reverse gear and turn your steering wheel towards the kerb when facing downhill use ‘park’ if your car has an automatic gearbox. When I was17 I forgot once and my old Anglia narrowly missed a relative's new Jag as it rolled into the fence. That taught me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawcara Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I have been following this thread, which to the credit of all contributors is very informative to those not familiar with the box. However, is there any sort of maintenance schedule for this type of box or is it just left alone at service intervals? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I really can't see the attraction of a so called automatic that needs to be driven with all the porential problems and fobels in mind. My car has a slush box and I love it. Start the engine move into drive and that's that no worries and no potential clutch problems. Mine has three options. Economy, normal and sport with paddles on the steering wheel to override the auto if required. I normally leave it in economy and just switch to normal in hilly areas. I have tried the sport setting and whilst it does work it only means you can go faster than the traffic you are in so its a bit pointless to use it. If I see a big hill coming up I do use the paddles to flip down a gear before the hill. We are just about to downsize to a PVC and have considered a Merc to get their excellent seven speed slush box but at seven meters long it would hardly be downsizing and I'm not happy that the body is, unlike the Faits, not galvanised. It's interesting that Merc dabbled with automated manuals called the Sprint shift but dropped it and went back to a slush box. Given that most of the time driving is spent in top gear I've decided to stick to a manual. What I will miss is the effortless ability to creep along on heavy traffic even if its going uphill which is something it seems the Comfortamatic cant do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don636 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I own a car with a slushmatic and a van with Comfortmatic so I feel perfectly qualified to comment on and compare both types of gearbox. There is no doubt in my mind that the slushmatic is the better gearbox as it is easier to operate overall. Just stick it drive and go. It will creep effortlessly in stop start situations including hills, no problem. I use the manual override when the roads are winding and/or hilly as it gives better control. When accelerating it will kick down but it can be a bit harsh at times so I will sometimes go to manual and get into the lower gear I want in anticipation. It will handle everything no problem in auto but sometimes I just want to be in control more and it can add to the fun of driving using manual, especially if I am pressing on. The Comfortmatic will also handle everything in auto but again I will go to manual if I want more control. There is more of an issue on hills as it can be slow selecting a lower gear but I can always go to manual. I am not sure if this is an issue with the gearbox electronics or if it is just that it is a large and heavy commercial vehicle. It is not a major problem. Hill starts are a bit trickier but this may be better if you have hill hold. Again, not really a problem, despite what some of us have said. If some of the comments made on this thread have come across as negative I don't think this is what was intended - we are only being entirely honest so the OP can make an informed choice with the benefit of our collective experience. Comparing the two types of gearbox it seems clear to me that the slushmatic is easier to use. So why bother with a Comfortmatic then? The answer is obvious to me - I want an auto gearbox so I have no choice but to have Comfortmatic, unless I go for a Merc van and I do not want to pay that premium. Whatever you might think of the merits of Comfortmatic it is an still an auto and most of the time it does a great job. The changes are smooth and it is much more relaxing than a manual. I really like it and would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone if asked. I really wish I could order the van with the 8 speed box from a BMW say but that is not possible. Just setting the record straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-10-09 9:57 PM Rayjsj - 2014-10-09 4:12 PM Rayjsj - 2014-10-05 5:55 PM As the Clutch is integral in the Comformatic set-up ( ie The Driver does not choose to operate the clutch,the computer does) does that mean that the Clutch linings are Included in the 3 year warranty now ? After all, they were only left out of the Warranty because 'Driving style' could affect clutch wear, that is now not the case. Any comments on this ? Ray No one has actually answered my question, unfortunately I cannot alter my Driveway(It's Steep,AND I have to reverse up it), and Autotrail do not convert onto Mercedes Sprinter bases ( providing a Torque converter auto) any more. So ? do I relpace my van with one that has a Comfortmatic gearbox ? and if i do and 'the little robot' burns out the clutch trying to reverse up my driveway, who pays ?? the' little Fiat Robot' in the guise of my 3 year warranty ? or me ? Ray oops ! I mentioned 'Reverse'. Ray, what the Fiat warranty on mine says regarding exclusions is: "The Warranty does not cover defects caused by normal wear and tear. In particular, by way of example but not limited to, it does not cover the replacement or top-up of oil and other fluids and replacement of the following components: spark plugs, heater plugs, filters, service/transmission belts, clutch, brake discs and pads, rear brake shoes and drums, shock absorbers, fuses, bulbs, windscreen and rear window wiper blades, etc." There is no addendum to the warranty in the Comfortmatic supplement. So, not surprisingly IMO, the clutch on a comfortmatic is not covered by the warranty. However, contrary to an earlier post, there is a warning notice that will flash up, accompanied by beeps (always the beeps! :-)), to say if the clutch is overheating. This, inevitably, will arise after the clutch has already overheated. BTW, I wasn't being facetious when I said your solutions are a less steep drive or a sludge stirrer Sprinter. Doing as you describe you will, sooner or later, fry your clutch. Motorhomes are heavy, yours among the heavier size for size, and steep uphill starts place considerable stress on clutches. Doing this in a confined space means the manoeuvre has to be done carefully and slowly, and that, in turn, under the circumstances you describe, means extensive clutch slip, which again in turn, means increased heat and accelerated clutch wear. From this there is no escape and, as the comfortmaitc uses a standard clutch, its rate of wear under the same conditions will be broadly the same as for a manual transmission. The electronics and servos only do what you do, they don't/can't alter the laws of physics. Live with what you have, move house, put your van into storage, or change your van for an auto Sprinter base, really are your available options, as I see it. Unless you have a mate with a tractor who can tow your van out when you want to go. :-) Not what you wanted to hear, I accept, but unless someone else has an alternative wheeze to offer, I think that is where you are. Sorry. Yes Derek, I did mean the 'Landstar' thanks. Brian, I don't have a mate with a tractor, but i do have one with a 'Proper' 4wd Landrover LWB, who has offered to tow the Van Backwards up to it's 'Parking Spot' when we get back from our travels. That way the van will be like a 'Lifeboat', can be 'Launched' down the 'Slipway' perfectly ok, but when we get home it has to be 'Hauled out' until the next 'Shout'. :D :D :D Ray I have seen pictures of an old Austin 7 being reversed all the way up a mountain road in Wales, because it wouldn't go up in First !! can I have a gearbox like that Please ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Hawcara - 2014-10-10 5:07 PM I have been following this thread, which to the credit of all contributors is very informative to those not familiar with the box. However, is there any sort of maintenance schedule for this type of box or is it just left alone at service intervals? :-D The Comfortmatic system ‘automates’ the standard manual gearbox, so any required maintenance for the Comfortmatic gearbox itself should be the same as that required for the manual gearbox. However, Comfortmatic has additional bits-and-bobs to carry out the functions that, on the manual transmission, will be performed by a driver’s hands and feet and (evidently) there are specific service requirements for some of these. Nick Fisher (euroserv) mentions this here http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/3-0-comfort-matic/35178/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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