Chelston & Autotrail unsatisfied customer - Beware!!

[sparkles]

Hi All Below is a lengthy email sent to Chelston & copied to Auto-trail on 17th July this year, Chased for a reply answer on 20th August, partly replied 21st August, treat as a matter of urgency on 3rd September, partly answered 4th september, better reply 18th September. Only last week some 9 weeks later are you getting closer to getting our concerns addressed. I could write a book / blog about the sort of service we have received from Chelston and Auto-trail but from my email you will get a idea of what can happen and maybe a one-off!! but I would not bet against it. Our ownership has really been spoilt by the saga and I would not wish others to experience the current trouble and ownership problems we are having. So if nothing else this might make manufactures and dealers wake up to their poor customer care service and build quality issues if us owners make other potential owners aware so here goes...... Hello Martyn (Chelston) Hope all is well with you down South. Sorry to bother you again so soon after the recent lengthy habitation service. You will be pleased to know the rear window water leak does appear to be cured. We have not had any further leaks since. My reason for contacting you is a bit lengthy but I feel it is now necessary to put some of our feelings down in writing. Point 1:- Martyn - Tom - Stuart Turpin AutoTrail Last weekend we were wild camping with the Motorhome Club of which I am a committee member. My intention was to watch the world cup final using the Panasonic portable TV ( model TX-G10 - It was not cheap!!) which we were sold in your sales shop when we purchased our motorhome. On the first time of trying to watch TV that Sunday evening the TV would not stay on. 20 minutes was spent trying to get the TV to remain on but without success. The battery meter reading above the door read 11.8v. In the end we had to return home early upset. Last Monday I took the two 85a batteries to be proffessionally checked with both giving healthy 12.6v readings when tested and when under load as well. I then put those on charge again during last week in readyness for this weekend's wild camping with the club. Chairman of the Club with over 33 years of motorhome ownership took direct readings of both batteries on the friday evening with both showing 13.05 / 13.06. When the reading was taken at the 12v TV point in the van it also read the same 13.05 but when the TV set was switched on the voltage dropped to 11.6 / 11.7 when tested. After reading the leaflets with the TV it does state that the set will switch off if the voltage fails below 10.7v - Not much room for comfort of 1v over the period of a weekend. It also says I quote " Check that all wires from the battery to the DC suppy jack are of adequate diameter - thin wires have greater resistance and cause a larger voltage drop. Keep wires as short as possible to reduce resistance" AND " If you have created your own power cable for direct connection to the battery ensure that the wires are at least as thick as those in the supplied DC power cable." Even though the distance from where the batteries are store to the TV socket is probably around 6ft, I guess the wiring goes to the meter above the habitation door then over to the other wall down the internal wall to the 12v socket which is why the voltage drops. I would like you to ask the powers that be at Autotrial HOW MUCH MORE MONEY would it have cost to use heavier internal wiring cable to avoid this sort of problem on a £40,000 van. I would appreciate a phone call from Autotrail (Stuart Turpin head salesman) to see whether the problems we have occurred since owning the vehicle is good enough for their customers. Our intention is when our house is sold to purchase a bigger van BUT the problems over the last 3 years of ownership have really took the shine off owning this vehicle and I am asking myself if I am really prepared to spend even more money on a larger van when the time comes. To make matters worse for me on this one point is that if you check your records on our first habitation service one of our problems was that we were not getting much life out of our TV when using batteries. Instead of being advised that the internal 12v socket & aerial point was not able to be used for it's purpose (for the TV sold to us) and mentioning the thin cables we were given two replacement batteries which did little to resolve the real problem long term. ( This surely cost more than installing thicker wiring cable ) How do you propose to resolve this problem as I feel we should have been made aware of this when we purchased the TV set from Chelston. Point 2:-Martyn - Tom - Stuart Turpin AutoTrail After Two weekends of wild camping with the group of members in the motorhome club they commented just how noisey the replacement water pump was ( It sounds like a numatic drill ) compared to the old one which had been leaking. (This was replaced in our most recent habitation visit.) We are STILL not happy just how noisey it is since replacement and made this comment on our collection. Around the table discussion took place from owners about how we feel that the manufacturer leaves it to the customer to identify all these problems during the early years of ownership. It is probaby cheaper to solve complaints case by case rather than do better PDI inspections. Since I purchased my van from Chelston 3 other members from the club have purchased Autotrail models on our recommendation. We were initially very pleased with our purchase but my feelings have changed dramtically recently as the problems with Autotrail factory and the various issues that Chelston have to sort out. It was a steep learning curve spending 5 days recently in your service centre to hear of the problems various customers were having and that many felt that Chelston were " fighting the fire" with correcting the factory faults. Point 3:-Martyn - Tom - Stuart Turpin AutoTrail The very small local Autotrial agent who carried out the first repair on the rear window water leak is not pleasant to do business with. Various accounts from members that unless you purchase thru him he is not interested in carrying out warranty work or any work, I had to really push him into helping me in the early days. After the first habitation service with you, your technician knew straight away that the rear window and replacement rubber seal had not been fitted correctly by this agent or postioned only just by looking at the rear of my van. Myself and a few others have no intentions of using this outfit again to resolve their issues so we all now face the expense of a trip and deisel to get adequate service elsewhere. I don't think Manufacturers are aware just how different camping is here as most camping is wild camping without electricity and this is how we identify faults that other users in the UK on hook-up do not notice. Point 4:-Martyn - Tom - Stuart Turpin AutoTrail A Question to Autrotrail - Do they think that after nearly 3 years of careful ownership as my partner and I respect the motorhome when using it for weekend's away with the club and two abroad trips that the following gives confidence to invest even more money in another motorhome??:- Rear Window leaking x 3 times starting after 4 months. Sealant re-placed around rear top brake light, Dried-out brake fixtures and water ingress. 16 hours to resolve, resulting in slight warping of rear panel. Charging Unit replaced within 12 months. Re-sealed around external front panel on roof after 12 months. Bathroom re-sealed x 2 after 12 & 36 months. Leaking water pump replaced this habitation. Factory damage to Fresh water inlet - Replaced after 36 months Veneer above Fireplace bubbled after 12 months - Replaced with brushed steel panel at recent habition visit - Factory Design Fault. 2 Replacement Leisure Batteries within 12/24 months. Slats re-screwed on main bed within 12 months. 2 Freezer door hinges replaced x 2. In-adequate thickness of wiring to 12v TV power socket. Star crazing overhead cab. Not surprisingly, we decided to extend the warranty cover for a further 2 years on our last visit at a cost of £500 just in case the above continues during our ownership!! Point 5:-Martyn - Tom - Stuart Turpin AutoTrail We are still unhappy with what we think is a Autotrail design fault to place the mains electric immersion heater switch under the rear corner cushion at the rear window panel to get the hot water. During the rear window leaking issue over the last 36 months at various stages we feel it's position is a safety issue as water was running from the window directly above the socket. It was decided upon at Chelston that you would not stand the £90 plus parts plus VAT to re-position the switch beside the front panel of the other two main sockets. Understandable Chelston had already spent 16 hours working on the water leak issue. Point 6:-Martyn - Tom - Stuart Turpin AutoTrail During our last visit to France in May this year we had the passenger cab door broken into by pushing a screw driver in the lock and twisting while we were asleep inside. I was utterly shocked just how easy they made it look as they woke me up. My complaint:- The insurance repair agent first quoted me £60/£70 to replace the barrel lock on the door which would result in not making a claim on my insurance but after checking on Fiat's Database he was unable to repair that one lock and has had to order a whole kit for replacing both cab doors, petrol lock and the igintion barrel, keys, re-programming the immobliser on the new keys resulting in a bill of £600 + to be carried out on 27th July!! Maybe when Autotrail are next designing they would put dead-locks installed internally on both cab doors as a feature for their special edition pack!! ( rather than a TV to get stolen) I realise that some content of this email is not directed to Chelston as when the above have been notified we have had good service from the techinicians but it does depend on which person you deal with to achieve the correct level of service and you Tom and Martyn have dealt with us very well. I feel this needs to come to Chelston's attention first as Selling Dealers that elements of this email should be passed onto Autotrail for comment. When we purchased the Cheyenne at the East of England Showground 2003 the head of Autotrail (Stuart) was present to help sell us their product . I have run my own service business for the last 12 years and pride myself on the customer care and attention to detail offered to our customers and feel that the above falls way short of complete satisfaction on our behalf as your customers. I would appreciate comments from Chelston & Autotrail in due course by telephone and letter when you have the full time to give this email your attention into our ownership. Sorry Martyn, for directing it towards you. Kind Regards If owners would like to know further details on how we are getting on I would be happy to advise on our saga via email

[robin]

[QUOTE]sparkles - 2006-09-24 10:21 PM ...- thin wires have greater resistance and cause a larger voltage drop.... I don't think Manufacturers are aware just how different camping is here as most camping is wild camping without electricity and this is how we identify faults that other users in the UK on hook-up do not notice. [/QUOTE] Sparkles I think you make a very good point. I had voltage drop problems with a Bessacarr when running on 12v, such that the Truma Bolier cuts out due to the voltage dipping below 10.6v (IIRC) when one or two lights have been switched on. I had concluded that this was down to using thinner wire than appropriate. I think UK vans are 'designed for', and used principally with 240volt hook up. When used without hook up especially during winter months the shortcomings become apparent. This is one of the reasons that we have exchanged the Bessacarr for a German built 'van.

[sparkles]

Hi Robin Thank you for your comments of which I agree with about being designed mainly for hook up. Below is a response from autotrial to this point I made and my reply to theirs which still has not been answered or resolved by either Chelston or Auto-trail. Auto-trails reply:- The 12V wiring installation on all Auto Trail motorhomes is designed and installed to meet the requirements on EN 1648 - 2, this standard clearly states the voltage drop allowed from the power source to each appliance is 0.8V. In the case of the 12V television socket this voltage drop is based on an average current draw of 4 amps (clearly marked on the 12V socket) and all cables are sized to meet this requirement. The Panasonic TX G10 runs at just under 4 amps in normal use, but it does have a very high start up 'spike' when the unit is first switched on. Coupled with this Panasonic have incorporated a sophisticated voltage cut-out device that will not allow the unit to switch on (or indeed will switch the unit off) when the voltage has dropped to around 10.9 volts. Panasonic have recognised the sensitivity of this set to voltage fluctuation and have produced a new power lead (that itself is less susceptible to voltage drop) and a means of disabling the voltage cut-off device. These modifications should make this set less susceptible to the voltage fluctuation and information should be available from Panasonic. My response:- Thank you for sending one reply to the 6 points of concern raised. My response to that email is as follows:- 1. In my case the voltage drop seemed greater than the allowed drop of 0.8V. (In my email I gave 13.05v fully charged dropping to 11.6 / 11.7 when the TV set was switched on and runnning. 2. Chelston should have been aware of this before offering to sell these TV's from it's shop or advise it's customers at habitation stage rather than instaling 2 new leisure batteries. 3. Will Chelston send the new power lead modification? After waiting 7 weeks for a FULL reply to all concerns given in my email ( which an important reply email from Auto-trail which you lost ) I was expecting more than just this one reply given. You do not seem to be taking my concerns with a matter of urgency or satisfaction. Please would you take the time to ring me to go thru all the concerns and advise what Chelston / Autotrail are prepared to do. At present I have no confidence in investing any further money in another vehicle and unless I get a satisfactory reply I will send my original email off to both Caravan Club & Camping & Caravan Club letters page to advise other potential customers.

[John Day]

Hi Sparkles/ Robin, We have a Kon-tiki and have the same problem with voltage drop when not on a hook-up especially when using the Truma boiler, it drops to 10.6 ish and the red light comes on making it impossible to use the heating last winter. So all you eletrical experts what wires need beefing up, just those to the heater or all the bloody lot!!!! Cheers Dayo

[carebear]

Hi All, We have a 2003 Kontiki kept having problems with both batteries dying after two nights when not on hookup, really doing our heads in. Travelled all the way to Nottingham to Brownhills they said it was the Radio, said it was sorted , get home same problem next outing. Ended up buying a generator and adding second leisure battery, while at Shepton Mallet show last year got so fed up with this, went to Brownhills and they sent their service boys around to us, they checked inside the van then under the bonnet they removed a relay fuse, hubby says there are two together 1= step 1 = battery charger. and then swapped them around, put the charger fuse in the electric step and the step didnt work, which was previouly working, they put a new relay in, not had any problem since. Those lads knew what they were doing. (lol) (lol)

[robin]

[QUOTE]John Day - 2006-09-25 9:23 PM Hi Sparkles/ Robin, We have a Kon-tiki and have the same problem with voltage drop when not on a hook-up especially when using the Truma boiler, it drops to 10.6 ish and the red light comes on making it impossible to use the heating last winter. So all you eletrical experts what wires need beefing up, just those to the heater or all the bloody lot!!!! Cheers Dayo[/QUOTE] John, Well hey, it's not me. As I have stated elsewhere these 'vans are not suitable for winter use without hookup despite the NCC grade 3 certificate. I tried to get Brownhills to fix it but they denied there was a fault, claiming that one of the battery terminals was not fiited properly (it was, and yes I did fit a second leisure battery to try and rectify the fault). I did consider re-wring, but the loom looks really complicated to follow through and it goes via that wonderful electronic control unit (which is another story). I gave up fighting as we had decided to get rid of the 'van anyway. If your 'van is less than 3 years old you should be able to get it resolved under warranty as not fit for purpose, but I expect you will have a fight on. I had thought that Swift had got its act together with decent size tanks, double floor, large gas tank capacity, but it seems that if you want a motorhome that you can use in a self contained way throughout the year, then you have to go for a European one. A great shame - or is there a UK 'van that meets those requirements?

[sparkles]

Problems Now sorted at Service on 10th July this year Hi All You will be pleased to know that after a habitation visit to Chelston this July all of our problems have now been resolved. Their attention to all previous matters were resolved to our satisafaction. And after slating them for their poor after sales service which was correct in the past, I want to now go on record and give them credit for completing on all matters. This visit we found their service excellent and dealt with all matters very well. So thank you Martyn and Tom for your efforts. Regards

[davenewellhome]

All credit to Chelston for sorting your issues, even if it took a while and the same to yourself for letting us all know. D.