StuartO Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I have been trying to get my head around why the Euronozzle connector (sold for filling up with LPG in Spain) is so expensive compared with the equivalents for other parts of Europe. Any why is a different connector used in Spain and nowhere else, except perhaps parts of Portuagal, when there are other, cheaper and better established connection systems? In some parts of Spain the same connector as in UK is used so it's not even universal in Spain. The story is that the EU decided, some years ago, to try to standardise LPG fill-up connection systems and someone invented the Euronozzle to fit thebill. The EU's hope is that this system will replace all others within the EU over the next few years. Unlike the other types the connector contains a non-return valve inside it, which will prevent any back flow from the vehicle's installation when the LPG pump conector is removed. The pump connector just pushes on to the Euronozzle and no extra steps such as clamping or twisting are necessary. On the other hand the Euronozzle protrudes, so it can get knocked, and because it contains the non-return valve, it's more expensive to supply. Spain was late developing LPG re-fill distribution and presumably took up the Euronozzle system because there was nothing else established - or maybe because EU money helped that to happen. Several years later the Euronozzle sems to have been a bit of a flop. Even in Spain other connection systems are said to exist (the same type as UK) and filling stations are reported to be willing to lend you a Euronozzle adapter if you need one to fill up there anyway. LPG refill depots are thin on the ground in Spain anyway and unless you will be in Spain for more than quite a few weeks, you can probably organise yourself not to need a top up while you are in Spain anyway. So it is really necessary to carry a Euronozzle adapter when touring in Spain? Have people who go to Spain found they've been able to top up using their British bayonet connector system anyway? Do fill up points which have Euronozzle LPG pumps lend you an adapter if you need one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Another aspect of this yet another well thought out political solution to an engineering problem is that the non return valve can stick preventing any input of gas at all - as ours did at first. Personally I can't see the point of a non return valve in an adapter you have to remove as removing it defeats the object, and why have an extra length of hose filled with high pressure gas when you don't need to? I was able to prod the valve and free it and some garages seem to have their own adapters that they may loan you if you ask nicely. So maybe you do not need to carry your own - but Sodde's Law being what it is, is it worth not having for the sake of twenty quid? Another problem can be be garages whose lpg tanks or pumps seem not to be producing gas at high enough pressure to open both the non return valve in the system and also in the adapter and one Dutch guy we met had removed the non return valve in his adapter to get over this problem. It was his adapter that allowed us to refill after he saw me struggling with both my own and the garage's adapters. Progress eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 You can buy them without the non return valve now, at half the price. As you say, a political solution to an engineering problem, that didn't exist in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 What a lot of fuss over something that cost less than a tenner, not much more than a couple of pints of beer. I'd be more concerned about the extra weight it means carrying. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I am with Lenny, just get one. I have come across them in Switzerland to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Henry you just agreed with me! Frank keeps doing it as well. I think I need some pills for this. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-10-21 3:54 PM Henry you just agreed with me! Frank keeps doing it as well. I think I need some pills for this. (lol) Perhaps we are all now using the right adapters - the ones with non return valves that create harmony between different threads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 We live in hope. Nar I think you are in cloud cuckoo land Rich *-) *-) *-) *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Cuckoo, cuckoo. !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 I hadn't appreciated that there was a non-return valve inside these adpaters until I came across an explanation on line before originating this thread, nor until was I aware until today that Euronozzles could be bought without the non-return valve as well as with. I don't suppose the EU specification allows the non-valved version but actually it makes far more sense for me to buy one of those, because if you have to unscrew it from the MH fitting after re-filling, as I do, there will be a high risk of blowing the O ring as the gas pressure is released. Better to release the pressure as you remove the pump connecter, as happens with the other (non-valved) adapters I use. The existance of with-valve and without-valve versions presumably also explains the considerable variation in price of Euronozzles on EBay. The postal charges seem to vary quite a lot too and non of them seem to me to be entirely reasonable as postal charges. I don't mind paying £8 or so for a nozzle which is just a bit of turned brass with an O ring, but I was baulking at paying more than twice that and/or at least £3.50 and as much as £13 for postage - for something I will probably never actually use. Maybe we all have hang ups about particular costs but the prices seemed a lot for a bit of turned brass and the seemingly excessive postage charges were the last straw. I didn;t know about the built-in vave then of course. I suppose the Euronozzles priced at £16 or more are all with-valve versions and maybe Gas It supply two different versions. Anyway handicapped by my unwillingness to pay high postage charges, I took the trouble to visit the CAK Tank stall at the NEC on the off chance they had brought some - and indeed they had. But a nozzle (in a Gas It bag) was priced at over £24. Gas IT sell them on EBay (perhaps without valves) for £8 odd plus postage. CAK reckoned there was a pricing error but in retrospect I guess that was a valved nozzle, although still at a silly price. Anyway, now that I know the score about valves or no-valves, I probably will buy a valveless one - providing I can avoid the postage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 StuartO - 2014-10-21 5:53 PM Anyway, now that I know the score about valves or no-valves, I probably will buy a valveless one - providing I can avoid the postage! What's thing you have about postage, I can't see any with unreasonable postage charges on eBay. If an item is thicker than a large letter even if it only weighs 10 grams it costs me the same to post as a 20kg parcel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-10-21 3:54 PM Henry you just agreed with me! Frank keeps doing it as well. I think I need some pills for this. (lol) So I did Lenny, how did that happen, I know for the first time you were correct. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 rupert123 - 2014-10-21 10:13 PM lennyhb - 2014-10-21 3:54 PM Henry you just agreed with me! Frank keeps doing it as well. I think I need some pills for this. (lol) So I did Lenny, how did that happen, I know for the first time you were correct. (lol) You are being sparring with the truth Henry you have even agreed with me in private but wont admit it. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 lennyhb - 2014-10-21 11:30 PM rupert123 - 2014-10-21 10:13 PM lennyhb - 2014-10-21 3:54 PM Henry you just agreed with me! Frank keeps doing it as well. I think I need some pills for this. (lol) So I did Lenny, how did that happen, I know for the first time you were correct. (lol) You are being sparring with the truth Henry you have even agreed with me in private but wont admit it. :D OK you have been correct twice. :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Just enjoyed a fancinating conversation with Nick Farrow, who owns Gas It, about Euronozzles and other aspects of MH re-fillable LPG. First of all Euronozzles are sold with and without non-returnvalves but it is very important for any UK motorhome owners to use a Euronozzle WITHOUT a non-return valve. Your LPG filler fitting will already have a non-return valve in it anyway, but if you screw a Euronozzle into it to fill up in Spain and then disconnect (normally) you will be left with about 150 psi pressure of liquid gas insode the Euronozzle. You might therefore struggle to unscrew it at all, because of the pressure inside, and if you suceed there will be a sudden (and potentially dangerous) release of liquid gas under pressure past the O ring. The O ring would be very ikely to blow. The gas escape could also be sufficient to present a substantial safety risk. If on the other hand your Euronozzle has no valve built into it, the valve in your surface fitting will stop your rubber filler tube emptying backwards and only a little bit of liquid gas will escape as you disconnect the pump fitting. This is OK and safe enough for MH use. Euronozzle are supplied with a non-return valve for marine and industrial use, so that when the pump connector comes off after re-filling, no significant gas escapes at all - so there is no risk of lpg accumulating in the vessel's bilges. (LPG is heavier than air remember, so it would and that would be dangerous.) In these instalations the Euronozzle is a permanent fitting, so the risk of gas escape when it is removed does not arise. Most UK MH installations will involve a surface fitting which has a baynet connection permanently incorporated, so that you attach the UK autogas pump directly to it with no adapter needed. You can also screw adaptors into the female thread inside the bayonet fitting as necessary for re-filling abroad. This is OK. Screw in adaptors are perfectly legal for occassional use abroad of this sort. Some UK motorhomes will be fitted with a surface mounting which has a female thread rather than a bayonet fitting, so this will call for an adapter to be screwed into it for re-filling in UK as well as abroad. These are less desirable (and arguably less safe) because frequent use of a screw in adapter fitting will cause wear (eg of the O ring) and present a risk of failure compared with the permanently installed bayonet connector. Both systems will have a non-return valve built into the surface fitting and a high pressure rubber tube leading from that to the re-fillable gas bottles. This rubber tube is very robust, with a burst pressure of over 6000 psi, so it isn't going to fail in service. It doesn't matter therefore that liquid gas at 150 psi remains in this rubber tube after re-filling, unless of course you disconnect it, when the pressure would be released, so be prepared for an exiting moment if you ever do this. There are also likely to be non-return valves (as well as 80% fill limit valves) in each of your bottles. So if you have to disconnect your high pressure filler tube that isn't going to result in your bottles emptying themselves either. But the consequence of always having a non-return valve in your surface fitting is that you really do not want another one in the adapter nozzle. If you have bought a Euronozzle adapter you should be able to see right through the hole inside. If you can't it could have a non-return valve and that could be dangerous, so return it to your supplier for exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I take in all of what you have said and understand. I have used this highly "dangerous" adaptor several times now and yes when you unscrew it you get the same type of release of gas as you do when releasing the filler nozzle. A simple press of the non return valve will release this gas and prevent any questionable damage to the O ring, done with caution. Will I be returning it to the supplier, I doubt it. Thanks for the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 The proof of the pudding lies in the eating, as they say. Only a small volume inside the nozzle when it's on your surface fitting because there's another non-return valve not far behind, so no great release of gas? Well done for thinking of pressing the valve to release the gas pressure. That will allow you to unscrew, which might otherwise be difficult or might blow the O ring. Poking with your finger might be exciting I suppose. It still makes sense for anyone who hasn't yet bought one to buy the valveless version doesn't it? Apart from anything else it's significantly cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homenaway Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Hi, I bought a Euro adaptor last year for our Spain trip and it was the one without the non return valve. The first time I used it the o-ring blew as soon as it was pressurised from the pump delivery hose. I borrowed an adaptor from the filling station that worked ok. The reason was that the oring was the wrong size ie too large a cross section diameter and didn't fit into the chamfer at the end of the female thread. During my career in engineering I designed many hydraulic components with o-ring seals and it was obvious that this euro adaptor was liable to fail. In fact oring groove design is quite critical and these fittings aren't correct with insufficient recess for the seal. I bought it from one of the main UK LPG equipment suppliers and it was quite expensive. I switched the oring to one with a smaller cross section that I have on another adaptor and it sealed ok when I next used it. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 StuartO - 2014-10-23 5:39 PM The proof of the pudding lies in the eating, as they say. Only a small volume inside the nozzle when it's on your surface fitting because there's another non-return valve not far behind, so no great release of gas? Well done for thinking of pressing the valve to release the gas pressure. That will allow you to unscrew, which might otherwise be difficult or might blow the O ring. Poking with your finger might be exciting I suppose. It still makes sense for anyone who hasn't yet bought one to buy the valveless version doesn't it? Apart from anything else it's significantly cheaper. Totally agree as in a MH the non-return valve is un-necessary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 Homenaway - 2014-10-23 9:00 PMHi, I bought a Euro adaptor last year for our Spain trip and it was the one without the non return valve.The first time I used it the o-ring blew as soon as it was pressurised from the pump delivery hose.I borrowed an adaptor from the filling station that worked ok. The reason was that the oring was the wrong size ie too large a cross section diameter and didn't fit into the chamfer at the end of the female thread. During my career in engineering I designed many hydraulic components with o-ring seals and it was obvious that this euro adaptor was liable to fail. In fact oring groove design is quite critical and these fittings aren't correct with insufficient recess for the seal. I bought it from one of the main UK LPG equipment suppliers and it was quite expensive.I switched the oring to one with a smaller cross section that I have on another adaptor and it sealed ok when I next used it.SteveI don't know whether this is related but in my conversation with Nick Farrow, I had a moan about a nozzle (without a valve in it) simply being a bit of turned brass, so why shoud it cost at least £8 plus too much postage (I know, my pet hang up) and he explained that along with all other gas products they are "homologated" items these days, so the costs of the relevant testing and administration have to be included. If so you wouldnl expect one to be sold with the wrong O ring unless it was a cowboy product, would you? I got the impression that all the brass products for LPG systems come from the same factory (in Europe) for this reason, unless of course someone is importing cheap Chinese copies.Itis illegal fr anyone to use duff gas fittings and to use things like bottle fillers for ordinary Calor bottles (which are sold on EBay) but not to sell them. It's the end user who commit the offence. In consumer and safety protection terms that's plain silly, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 A friend of mine recently brought a cheap ACME adaptor, it was aluminium and the threads on it were just awful quality. I told him to send it back wasn't fit for purpose, he couldn't be bothered said it would just hope I'm not near him when he uses it. On products where safety is an issue, it is amazing how many substandard products are for sale & as said earlier often legal to sell but not to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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