Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Muswell - 2014-10-29 3:28 PM Had Enough - 2014-10-29 3:00 PM Best of all was having bets on which of your grandparents or uncles and aunts would pop off in their late sixties from bronchitis or some other respiratory disease. And that of course was another advantage of engines pumping out tons of filth every day, all the codgers kicked the bucket fifteen years earlier than they do these days, which saved the NHS millions in hip and knee replacements, heart bypass operations and all the other expensive treatments that today's pensioners take for granted, the selfish b*astards! Abd stopped them buying motorhomes and chugging around cluttering up the roads. Speaking of which I followed an Eldiss Firestorm up a hill a couple of days ago...Firestorm!!!! Is there a word for a dull flicker of embers? Perhaps a new name for these euro 6 vehicles could be the ...........Fiat Urea .......or the......Peugeot Piddle :D ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 euroserv - 2014-10-29 3:06 PM If they can apply this technology for the Ducato it will benefit EVERYONE. I hope they do it. Less parts, less heat, less fuel consumed and no DPF to go missing. I can't see any downside apart from some extra fluid to add once in a while. That is a compromise worth taking. Thanks Nick - whilst not a great fan of added blue urine it would be flippin' wonderful to rid the world of EGRs and DPFs - a political solution to an engineering problem that only the politicians want! And, no, I don't want to go back to the days of extreme pollution - I just want a reliable cost effective solution that works for all users, cars as well as vans, not just white van and rep man. Or do I seek too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 euroserv - 2014-10-29 3:06 PM The Iveco truck engines built for Euro 6 and launched at the end of last year did away with EGR and also do not require an 'active' DPF. They have a passive exhaust system instead and this does the job just fine. Thier patented SCR2 system is years ahead of any other manufacturer. If they can apply this technology for the Ducato it will benefit EVERYONE. I hope they do it. Fantastic. Right, that's it, plans for new van shelved - I'm waiting for one of these :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-10-29 3:48 PM Perhaps a new name for these euro 6 vehicles could be the ...........Fiat Urea .......or the......Peugeot Piddle :D How about the ultimate recycling - carry your very own pot to pee in - complete with tube to holding tank - and save a fortune in the blues! I hereby commend my patented urine collection device henceforth to be known as the Ad & Elsan Saver! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 euroserv - 2014-10-29 1:07 PM I have no information to the contrary, so I am still assuming that the Fiat Ducato will not require additives for Euro 6 compliance. However; the boffins at FPT (Fiat Powertrain Technologies) have done some remarkable work on truck engines in the last couple of years that while they did need additives, they achieved considerable fuel economy improvements and reduced the amount of EGR required thereby reducing the operating temperature of the engine and increasing power. These engines are lighter than the competition too because of the reduced amount of equipment that needs to be attached! IF they end up doing this with the Ducato engines; the modest cost of the additive will be more than offset by the potential fuel savings, so I don't mind which way it goes really. By way of a progress report; we now have 12 Euro 5 Ducato's with 130hp engines. Some are now at around 50,000 miles and none have had any defects at all. Not so much as a warning light. I am comfortable with 'progress' at the moment! Nick Nick When I was at the Motorhome show I spoke to a representative on the Fiat stand who said they had made some great advances on the X290 Euro 5+ engines over the previous X250 Euro 5 and hinted that they were almost hitting Euro 6 compliance and possibly the latest engine could be adjusted to meet it. That is why I started this thread and asked the question of Fiat Professional, via an mail, of which I have not yet had a reply. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Muswell - 2014-10-29 3:28 PM..................I followed an Eldiss Firestorm up a hill a couple of days ago...Firestorm!!!! Is there a word for a dull flicker of embers? Afterglow? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Hi Alan, You won't get an answer from Fiat. This sort of thing is always played very close to the chest. Technically speaking I would agree that it's most likely that the Euro 6 will be only slightly altered from the Euro 5+ but the enormous commercial advantage they could achieve with the SCR2 technology would be very tempting and would probably exceed Euro 7 requirements and could even arrive wearing that badge instead of Euro 6! There will be no announcements until about May 2015 and it really could go either way. The Truck engines were not announced until December 22nd 2013 with a deadline of 31st December for switching over to Euro 6. The world of trucking was seriously taken aback at how Iveco had kept this huge leap forward a secret until then. If I were a betting man I would say they are going to do it again with the Ducato. If they can do it they would be stupid not to and if happens; it should not add much to the list price but I guess the development costs will have to be clawed back somehow. Having said all that though, the recently introduced new Iveco Daily uses the same 2.3 and 3.0 engines and these are offered as Euro 5b+ with just EGR or as Euro 6 with SCR and EGR. With a further year to play with FPT might pull a rabbit out of the hat and not have to use EGR or or stick with EGR and not have SCR on the Fiat vehicle. Nobody outside Fiat knows anything and my contacts are keeping quiet. Iveco may also change their Euro 6 offering and do away with SCR. They did it before on Euro 5 vehicles, so anything is possible. Confusing/interesting times ahead... If you were planning to buy a new motorhome early next year you could wait and see what happens. Trouble is; the Euro 6 order book won't open until about June and that means your vehicle won't get built until the autumn at the earliest. You will be more than likely waiting for another year before you get to use it! As said elsewhere; you can put off a purchase because of a desire for the 'latest thing' indefinitely. It's a tough one. The next Ducato won't look much different, and what is under the bonnet won't make much difference to it's future value. In two or three years time there might be an entirely new cab. Do you want to wait for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Muswell - 2014-10-29 3:28 PM Abd stopped them buying motorhomes and chugging around cluttering up the roads. Speaking of which I followed an Eldiss Firestorm up a hill a couple of days ago...Firestorm!!!! Is there a word for a dull flicker of embers? ....reading the foregoing, it might be that someone had been p*ssing in the Firestorm. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I wonder if the euro 6 or 7 will be less polluting than a petrol engine run on lpg? (^)................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 euroserv - 2014-10-29 5:47 PM Hi Alan, You won't get an answer from Fiat. This sort of thing is always played very close to the chest. Technically speaking I would agree that it's most likely that the Euro 6 will be only slightly altered from the Euro 5+ but the enormous commercial advantage they could achieve with the SCR2 technology would be very tempting and would probably exceed Euro 7 requirements and could even arrive wearing that badge instead of Euro 6! There will be no announcements until about May 2015 and it really could go either way. The Truck engines were not announced until December 22nd 2013 with a deadline of 31st December for switching over to Euro 6. The world of trucking was seriously taken aback at how Iveco had kept this huge leap forward a secret until then. If I were a betting man I would say they are going to do it again with the Ducato. If they can do it they would be stupid not to and if happens; it should not add much to the list price but I guess the development costs will have to be clawed back somehow. Having said all that though, the recently introduced new Iveco Daily uses the same 2.3 and 3.0 engines and these are offered as Euro 5b+ with just EGR or as Euro 6 with SCR and EGR. With a further year to play with FPT might pull a rabbit out of the hat and not have to use EGR or or stick with EGR and not have SCR on the Fiat vehicle. Nobody outside Fiat knows anything and my contacts are keeping quiet. Iveco may also change their Euro 6 offering and do away with SCR. They did it before on Euro 5 vehicles, so anything is possible. Confusing/interesting times ahead... If you were planning to buy a new motorhome early next year you could wait and see what happens. Trouble is; the Euro 6 order book won't open until about June and that means your vehicle won't get built until the autumn at the earliest. You will be more than likely waiting for another year before you get to use it! As said elsewhere; you can put off a purchase because of a desire for the 'latest thing' indefinitely. It's a tough one. The next Ducato won't look much different, and what is under the bonnet won't make much difference to it's future value. In two or three years time there might be an entirely new cab. Do you want to wait for that? Nick Thanks for your comprehensive reply. We have ordered now and will stick with the face lifted Ducato with the 150HP Euro 5+ engine which will be an improvement on our present one although we get 30 MPG out of the present Euro 5 130 BHP engine albeit the new motorhome will be heavier though. With technology the way it is with anything these days, what you buy today is never up to date and in the background is the latest update with the next update shortly behind that ! You could wait forever so to me you buy when the time and the money is right for you. If I do ever get a reply from Fiat I will post it. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 ...if you're talking about your old Transit, then I believe a Euro 6 diesel will beat it on every conventional measure (even running on LPG). (try looking at the various EU emissions standards over the years). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-10-29 6:21 PM ...if you're talking about your old Transit, then I believe a Euro 6 diesel will beat it on every conventional measure (even running on LPG). (try looking at the various EU emissions standards over the years). Can diesels run on LPG? 8-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-10-29 6:29 PM Robinhood - 2014-10-29 6:21 PM ...if you're talking about your old Transit, then I believe a Euro 6 diesel will beat it on every conventional measure (even running on LPG). (try looking at the various EU emissions standards over the years). Can diesels run on LPG? 8-) ............ :-S :-S (the answer to your question, however, is yes (at least partly)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-10-29 6:37 PM pelmetman - 2014-10-29 6:29 PM Robinhood - 2014-10-29 6:21 PM ...if you're talking about your old Transit, then I believe a Euro 6 diesel will beat it on every conventional measure (even running on LPG). (try looking at the various EU emissions standards over the years). Can diesels run on LPG? 8-) ............ :-S :-S (the answer to your question, however, is yes (at least partly)) Can you answer this one ;-) ...............according to the EU ........ Euro 6 Standard All vehicles equipped with a diesel engine will be required to substantially reduce their emissions of nitrogen oxides as soon as the Euro 6 standard enters into force. For example, emissions from cars and other vehicles intended to be used for transport will be capped at 80 mg/km (an additional reduction of more than 50 % compared to the Euro 5 standard). Combined emissions of hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides from diesel vehicles will also be reduced. These will be capped at, for example, 170 mg/km for cars and other vehicles intended to be used for transport. What does that mean in CO & HC percentages?........... As the last 2011 MOT on my recently bought 36 year motor states the following emissions levels......... CO...(Carbon monoxide)..........limit 4.5%..........actual 0.11 %vol HC...(Hydrocarbons)................limit 1200 ppm...actual 445 ppm So how does that equate? :-S .....................Com'on you forum boffins :D ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-10-29 6:54 PM What does that mean in CO & HC percentages?........... As the last 2011 MOT on my recently bought 36 year motor states the following emissions levels......... CO...(Carbon monoxide)..........limit 4.5%..........actual 0.11 %vol HC...(Hydrocarbons)................limit 1200 ppm...actual 445 ppm So how does that equate? :-S .....................Com'on you forum boffins :D ........... Well that is a dirty old engine, at the last MOT for my old Suzi 4x4 (10y.o.) Fast idle CO limit 0.200% act 0.064% HC limit 200ppm act 7ppm Natural idle CO limit 0.300% act 0.007% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 colin - 2014-10-29 7:27 PM pelmetman - 2014-10-29 6:54 PM What does that mean in CO & HC percentages?........... As the last 2011 MOT on my recently bought 36 year motor states the following emissions levels......... CO...(Carbon monoxide)..........limit 4.5%..........actual 0.11 %vol HC...(Hydrocarbons)................limit 1200 ppm...actual 445 ppm So how does that equate? :-S .....................Com'on you forum boffins :D ........... Well that is a dirty old engine, at the last MOT for my old Suzi 4x4 (10y.o.) Fast idle CO limit 0.200% act 0.064% HC limit 200ppm act 7ppm Natural idle CO limit 0.300% act 0.007% That's reassuring :D ..............I do like to be a reprobate B-) ............So how do they compare to euro 6? ;-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-10-29 6:54 PM What does that mean in CO & HC percentages?........... As the last 2011 MOT on my recently bought 36 year motor states the following emissions levels......... CO...(Carbon monoxide)..........limit 4.5%..........actual 0.11 %vol HC...(Hydrocarbons)................limit 1200 ppm...actual 445 ppm So how does that equate? :-S .....................Com'on you forum boffins :D ........... The HC ppm figure can easily be converted to a percentage - simply divide your figure by 10000 and this expresses the result as a percentage. The CO %vol cannot be converted to gm/km, as they measure CO on a totally different basis. (Actually, if you knew every piece of data on the particular engine you were testing, you possibly could get from one to the other, but it would be a very long, complicated (and fruitless) exercise). ...the last bit of which could possibly apply to my replies here. ;-) Edited to add: You can't compare apples and oranges, the units don't align, and Diesel and Petrol vehicles have different MOT test regimes. A good indicative measure, however, would be the relative design constraints for the Euro n values for Transit sized vehicles.. For CO, for example, Euro 1 (l994) allowed 6.9 gm/km for petrol engines. Euro 4/5/6 allows only 0.74 for diesels (almost a tenth!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-10-29 7:37 PM pelmetman - 2014-10-29 6:54 PM What does that mean in CO & HC percentages?........... As the last 2011 MOT on my recently bought 36 year motor states the following emissions levels......... CO...(Carbon monoxide)..........limit 4.5%..........actual 0.11 %vol HC...(Hydrocarbons)................limit 1200 ppm...actual 445 ppm So how does that equate? :-S .....................Com'on you forum boffins :D ........... The HC ppm figure can easily be converted to a percentage - simply divide your figure by 10000 and this expresses the result as a percentage. The CO %vol cannot be converted to gm/km, as they measure CO on a totally different basis. (Actually, if you knew every piece of data on the particular engine you were testing, you possibly could get from one to the other, but it would be a very long, complicated (and fruitless) exercise). ...the last bit of which could possibly apply to my replies here. ;-) Edited to add: You can't compare apples and oranges, the units don't align, and Diesel and Petrol vehicles have different MOT test regimes. A good indicative measure, however, would be the relative design constraints for the Euro n values for Transit sized vehicles.. For CO, for example, Euro 1 (l994) allowed 6.9 gm/km for petrol engines. Euro 4/5/6 allows only 0.74 for diesels (almost a tenth!) So accepting your apple and oranges analogy, and seeing as the EU, London and other cities are focusing on diesels.......... can we assume that they are worse than petrol engines? ;-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-10-29 7:58 PM So accepting your apple and oranges analogy, and seeing as the EU, London and other cities are focusing on diesels.......... can we assume that they are worse than petrol engines? ;-) ............ ....keep up that man! No, you can't. Diesels are (generally) already much better on CO, CO2 (and are likely to remain so), and have caught up on particulates (the target of the main restrictions so far - though there is still ongoing debate as to whether Diesel or Petrol particulates are equally undesirable). Euro6 now sees diesels substantially catch up on NOx (which is where the current targeting is). And that's against current petrol vehicles, not ones that originally needed a man with a red flag to walk in front of them. ;-) It is certainly arguable that, with the advent of Euro6, diesel will (across the basket of common measures) be significantly more emissions friendly than petrol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-10-29 8:37 PM pelmetman - 2014-10-29 7:58 PM So accepting your apple and oranges analogy, and seeing as the EU, London and other cities are focusing on diesels.......... can we assume that they are worse than petrol engines? ;-) ............ ....keep up that man! No, you can't. Diesels are (generally) already much better on CO, CO2 (and are likely to remain so), and have caught up on particulates (the target of the main restrictions so far - though there is still ongoing debate as to whether Diesel or Petrol particulates are equally undesirable). Euro6 now sees diesels substantially catch up on NOx (which is where the current targeting is). And that's against current petrol vehicles, not ones that originally needed a man with a red flag to walk in front of them. ;-) It is certainly arguable that, with the advent of Euro6, diesel will (across the basket of common measures) be significantly more emissions friendly than petrol. So we can expect the authorities to start targeting petrol engines next? ;-) ............all the Chelsea tractors and the like :D ......... It'll be a brave Boris who takes them on >:-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-10-29 8:44 PM So we can expect the authorities to start targeting petrol engines next? ;-) ............all the Chelsea tractors and the like :D ......... It'll be a brave Boris who takes them on >:-) ............. .....yup - starting with the older petrol vans. ;-) (BTW, most of the vehicles that the soubriquet "Chelsea Tractor" is aimed at will be diesel - it's a BIK tax CO2 emissions thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-10-29 8:54 PM pelmetman - 2014-10-29 8:44 PM So we can expect the authorities to start targeting petrol engines next? ;-) ............all the Chelsea tractors and the like :D ......... It'll be a brave Boris who takes them on >:-) ............. .....yup - starting with the older petrol vans. ;-) (BTW, most of the vehicles that the soubriquet "Chelsea Tractor" is aimed at will be diesel - it's a BIK tax CO2 emissions thing). I wonder if LPG powered vehicles will also be targeted? :-S .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-10-29 9:04 PM I wonder if LPG powered vehicles will also be targeted? :-S .......... ...possibly not in the same way, though I understand that there is a nascent EU harmonisation proposal to align LPG vehicle fuel taxation with that for conventional fuels; so, similar price per litre as petrol. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-10-29 8:37 PM pelmetman - 2014-10-29 7:58 PM So accepting your apple and oranges analogy, and seeing as the EU, London and other cities are focusing on diesels.......... can we assume that they are worse than petrol engines? ;-) ............ ....keep up that man! No, you can't. Diesels are (generally) already much better on CO, CO2 (and are likely to remain so), and have caught up on particulates (the target of the main restrictions so far - though there is still ongoing debate as to whether Diesel or Petrol particulates are equally undesirable). Euro6 now sees diesels substantially catch up on NOx (which is where the current targeting is). And that's against current petrol vehicles, not ones that originally needed a man with a red flag to walk in front of them. ;-) It is certainly arguable that, with the advent of Euro6, diesel will (across the basket of common measures) be significantly more emissions friendly than petrol. Who knows what we'll be driving in 10 years http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/diesel-dominance-threatened-eu-emissions-rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Muswell - 2014-10-29 10:48 PM Robinhood - 2014-10-29 8:37 PM pelmetman - 2014-10-29 7:58 PM So accepting your apple and oranges analogy, and seeing as the EU, London and other cities are focusing on diesels.......... can we assume that they are worse than petrol engines? ;-) ............ ....keep up that man! No, you can't. Diesels are (generally) already much better on CO, CO2 (and are likely to remain so), and have caught up on particulates (the target of the main restrictions so far - though there is still ongoing debate as to whether Diesel or Petrol particulates are equally undesirable). Euro6 now sees diesels substantially catch up on NOx (which is where the current targeting is). And that's against current petrol vehicles, not ones that originally needed a man with a red flag to walk in front of them. ;-) It is certainly arguable that, with the advent of Euro6, diesel will (across the basket of common measures) be significantly more emissions friendly than petrol. Who knows what we'll be driving in 10 years http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/diesel-dominance-threatened-eu-emissions-rules Blimey 8-) ................. I'm ahead of the curve again :D ................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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