cmiller Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Hi everyone. We're new to motorhomes but not camping or caravanning. We are about to buy our first (used) motorhome which will be on a tight budget but have narrowed our choice down to 3 possibles (pending test drives). We've looked round all three 'vans in the pouring rain as well as dry weather to check for water ingress and all appear to be watertight and smell ok.. Just wondered if anyone here could give any information on the following m/homes, e.g. reliability, availability of spares, known faults/problems for age of vehicle etc. All vans are on sale from the same local dealer. 1) Mercedes 310d Autotrail 6 berth, 1993. Appears to have been re-fitted inside fairly recently and looks lovely. We don't mind the retro look outside - we're pretty retro outselves these days! But we do wonder why someone would spend so much money doing such an old vehicle up before selling on to a dealer for re-sale. 90,000 miles 2) VW Compass Navigator Automatic. P reg. 4 berth. Compact but enough space to accommodate us both with our 2 dogs. Very tidy condition for age. 67,000 miles 3) Peugeot Boxer Windfall Equipe 4 berth. 2000 W reg. 47,000 miles. Lots of space - previous owner has made a slight modification to provide more kitchen worktop space (fold down shelf).. All have a rear lounge and all have a Fiamma awning. I would post a link to the dealers web site but I'm not sure of the ethics of that and the Compass Navigator is fairly new in and hasn't been put on the web site yet. Length of vehicle is immaterial as we are both lorry drivers and we plan to keep the 'van in storage locally. Any information would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I can only comment generally on the vehicle as a whole. I only ever choose a Merc or a VW and never a Fiat. The Merc engined chassis carried a large bodied 2006 Rapido that has now gone as we do a lot less going about, it was never a problem. We have a 2012 VW Nexa at present. In my many years driving about 16 VW vans of all variations have passed through my hands. None were ever a problem. As seasoned drivers I'm sure you see my reasoning. I will leave others to comment on specific body types. I think all "bodies" have their problems, they are a lightweight delicate structure on a rigid chassis and are constantly flexing plus they are only used occasionally. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I would go for the NEWEST van you can afford. Spare may be a problem as van gets older. We find a 6metre van more than big enough for us, and we spend up to 3 months at a time in it Don't go bigger than you need, as parking can be a problem in some carparks This time of year you should find some bargains around, don't forget to look on private sales. You will not get a warranty, but as you appear to be in the driving trade, I am sure you have connections to repairs PJay Good luck in your hunt, and welcome to the forum, keep on looking in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 ...as well as checking for damp etc(which you're aware of), do also check out their usable payloads and (rear)axle weights, because being older they'll presumably be of "old school" construction methods(timber framed & heavy)?...also any extras, wind-out awnings etc, will eat in to payload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I'd probably go for the VW if planning on keeping it....... as spares are more likely to remain available due to the numerous VW clubs ;-) ................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roe49f Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Vw's are the best but automatics are costly to repair. I'd go for the youngest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 roe49f - 2014-11-25 3:07 PM Vw's are the best but automatics are costly to repair. I'd go for the youngest. I bought a new VW T4 and the auto box failed after 500 miles and had to be replaced. It took VW a few weeks to find one *-) . Then there were problems with the shift interlock which meant I had to get back from Wales without taking it out of drive, then the ABS, and then the air mass sensor...and this wasn't a van which was sitting unused. I'm not convinced by the VW reliability story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Muswell - 2014-11-25 3:27 PM roe49f - 2014-11-25 3:07 PM Vw's are the best but automatics are costly to repair. I'd go for the youngest. I bought a new VW T4 and the auto box failed after 500 miles and had to be replaced. It took VW a few weeks to find one *-) . Then there were problems with the shift interlock which meant I had to get back from Wales without taking it out of drive, then the ABS, and then the air mass sensor...and this wasn't a van which was sitting unused. I'm not convinced by the VW reliability story. Fair comment, my old man had a auto VW Autosleeper which had problems :-| ..............a long list of previous owners is sometimes indicative of the van being a pup ;-) .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Will85 - 2014-11-25 1:37 PM they are a lightweight delicate structure on a rigid chassis and are constantly flexing plus they are only used occasionally. Will I should have said the chassis is flexible as well, probably going the opposite way to the body and a sure cause for water leaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I will reiterate the opinion of others - Check for damp, and I mean thoroughly. Take a good look inside all the lockers and cupboards. Undersides also suffer, so check very carefully under rear and side skirts. Don't assume that because it doesn't smell musty, or you don't see obvious signs of ingress, that all is well. Appearances are deceiving, get yourself a cheap damp meter - it might be the best 40 quid you spend. The age of the vans you are considering use old technology and assembly processes which were prone to leaking by design! Not sure what your budget is, but at this age buying privately would give you a lot more 'bang for your buck' and would no doubt buy you a newer model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 globebuster - 2014-11-25 7:09 PM The age of the vans you are considering use old technology and assembly processes which were prone to leaking by design! That statement implies that new technology doesn't leak? 8-) ...........If old technology was applied correctly then it doesn't leak ;-) ..............the same no doubt applies to new technology :-| ............ Ergo so if a van is still dry after 20 years then one can assume they've bought/found a good'un B-) ........ Plus one needs to be sure when using a meter they're not confusing condensation with penetrating damp :-S ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Where did I imply that new technology doesn't leak? Old technology is just that.... Earlier assembly techniques are more prone to leaking, and I've had my fair share of old vans. Sealants, and extrusions/mouldings have improved significantly, although until recently some manufacturers still continued with 'old school' concepts, and invariably those vans seem more prone to problems. Very easy to misinterpret damp readings, but if I were in the market for any used van, I would consider a moisture meter a wise investment. I'm sure there are many bone dry 'bargain bangers' - especially those kept under cover (lol) .....but let's not go there again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-11-25 7:23 PM...............That statement implies that new technology doesn't leak? 8-) ...........If old technology was applied correctly then it doesn't leak ;-) ..............the same no doubt applies to new technology :-| ............ Ergo so if a van is still dry after 20 years then one can assume they've bought/found a good'un B-) ................ To some extent yes dave, because the assembly of mororhome bodywork is mainly labour intensive and low tech, and the consequent workmanship failures affect all generations of vans. But, and it is quite a big but, the sealants used have improved enormously over those 20 years. 20 years ago it was quite common for non-setting mastics to have been used. Today, adhesive sealants are used, often modified polyeurethane type, that cure with atmospheric moisture to form flexible synthetic rubber seals that have tested lives exceeding 30 years. So, although assembly faults will either have been fixed if an older van is dry, or will never have been present, the 20 year old mastic, unlike ite modern counterpart, will have aged, and is likely to have become brittle and to have shrunk. This process is inevitable, and is in part caused by evaporation of the base material, and in part by ultraviolet degradation, and progresses a little every thime the van is exposed to sunlight and temperature change. So, I'd be inclined to monitor any van, however dry it was when bought, and the older the van the more closely I would monitor it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-11-25 7:47 PM pelmetman - 2014-11-25 7:23 PM...............That statement implies that new technology doesn't leak? 8-) ...........If old technology was applied correctly then it doesn't leak ;-) ..............the same no doubt applies to new technology :-| ............ Ergo so if a van is still dry after 20 years then one can assume they've bought/found a good'un B-) ................ To some extent yes dave, because the assembly of mororhome bodywork is mainly labour intensive and low tech, and the consequent workmanship failures affect all generations of vans. But, and it is quite a big but, the sealants used have improved enormously over those 20 years. 20 years ago it was quite common for non-setting mastics to have been used. Today, adhesive sealants are used, often modified polyeurethane type, that cure with atmospheric moisture to form flexible synthetic rubber seals that have tested lives exceeding 30 years. So, although assembly faults will either have been fixed if an older van is dry, or will never have been present, the 20 year old mastic, unlike ite modern counterpart, will have aged, and is likely to have become brittle and to have shrunk. This process is inevitable, and is in part caused by evaporation of the base material, and in part by ultraviolet degradation, and progresses a little every thime the van is exposed to sunlight and temperature change. So, I'd be inclined to monitor any van, however dry it was when bought, and the older the van the more closely I would monitor it. Well maybe because my campers been garaged for most of its life....... will explain why...... when I did the wiring for my reversing camera and removed a vent flap the mastic/sealant was still as sticky as the day it was applied ;-) ............although the edges appeared to be brittle :-S .......... So my view remains that a cherished low owner vehicle will prove to be the better choice when it comes to choosing between vans based on age B-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamw Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 As Brian says "workmanship failures affect all generations of vans - old and new". So despite development of improved sealants the possibility of water ingress still remains but hopefully is reduced. Of relevance here is the materials being employed into which that damp may find a route. Unbelievably there are still some manufacturers employing timber in the motorhome structure and alarmingly as an edging to panels so that it can be screwed together. The slightest bit of damp will see the timber expand and the tightly fitting joint split open. On a new motorhome timber used in this way should be a big NO! However, in the used market many motorhomes constructed in this manner will be evident and seams need to be inspected very carefully for the slightest ripple and a damp meter used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I think it's probably safer to assume that, even if it's not easily detectable from within the habitation cabin, vehicles of that age will have experienced "ingress" to some degree or other(..even if it's "only" minor and in some lower wheel arch, external locker type area). ..and I'd be thoroughly checking around the Luton comers and roof seams, skylights etc... However, looking at it from a slightly different angle, we also have to consider what the asking price of these vehicles is(are they deep into Pelmet-Dave's "Bargain Banger" territory?)and also,what the OP's expectations are, in respect to what he'll realistically get for his money?... I'm not for one minute recommending anyone should knowingly buy something with damp..of cause not..BUT if the van is bought cheap enough and then down the line it does turn out to have a "damp" issue, then as long as it isn't so serious that it affects the use of the van(and/or it can be easily "patched up" by a competent DIY?), then as long as the buyer could continue to get their umpteen family holidays a year out of it and can trundle around Europe for a few weeks/months at a time in it, then is it really such an issue...? After all, we're not talking of the preserving resale values here.. There must the 1000s of MHs(and caravans) on the road with damp or leaks of some description and I dare say that many of the owners either a) don't know or b) don't really care because it's still doing the job it was bought for. Of cause, the flip side of all that is that the buyer could just as easily end up with a soggy "project"! :-S If I had to look at old UK coacbuilts, I'd probably be looking at one of the A/S monocoques (and just allows some time/funds to update the Grannie's parlour décor. :-D ). Edit: Just noticed that the vehicles in question are at a dealer.As has been said, at this age, look to buy private. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 All, I think this is the dealer the OP is referring to... http://www.jmtleisure.co.uk/used-vehicles-somerset.htm Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Have to say they all look very tidy, a credit to the dealer and the previous owners B-) ............ The Autotrail has loads of floor space ideal for dogs ;-)............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-11-25 8:04 PM..................So my view remains that a cherished low owner vehicle will prove to be the better choice when it comes to choosing between vans based on age B-) ............. I'd agree Dave, if instead of "cherished", you had said "garaged". Why? Because a van can be cherished, and cleaned and polished until it gleams inside and out, but if it has to stand out in all weathers 24/7, UV and endless temperature cycles and wet/dry cycles will eventually degrade those older masitcs. If the van has been kept at more stable temperatures, and away from UV, by being garaged then, providing it tests dry after a good spell in the rain (and not as soon as it is wheeled out of the garage) it is probably a safe bet - providing the new owner can also keep it in a garage. But this rather begs the question: how many of us have garages that can accommodate a motorhome? I suspect it is very few, so any motorhome offered for sale after 20 years of living out is likely to be beginning to suffer from failing seals, whether that has resulted in present leakage or not. Leakage is only terminal if it is undetected and has been allowed to progress to the point at which large parts of the timber frame (that was pretty ubiquitous 20 years ago) have rotted. Minor rot can be cut out and repaired, but it is time consuming work, and very expensive if commercially undertaken. So, IMO, it pays to approach any 20 year old van with great caution, and have it damp checked very thoroughly (preferably by an independent tester), having first ascertained that it has not been weather protected up to the point of sale, before agreeing anything with the seller. Then, if it tests dry, there is no indication of past leakage, and the roof seams have not been bodged with silicone or similar, it should be a safe bet. First job after acquisition, for a trouble-free ownership, IMO, would be to remove all the cover strips around the coachbuilt, thoroughly clean off all old mastic, and then re-bed and re-secure the coverstrips with something a bit more durable. These vehicles were not, and are not, designed to last indefinitely. Even buildings that were built with pride to "last a lifetime" need maintenance and repair from time to time, and motorhomes are less well constructed than most buildings - even the badly built ones! Re-sealing the joints is a bit tedious, but doing so before the leakage begins (or at worst as soon as it is spotted) is far cheaper than waiting until the damp meter shows a problem, and then discovering that the rot has begun. I just see this as realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Doh! 8-) ...........pressed the wrong button again *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Well, if that's the case I'd go for the Autotrail - at least that appears to have been assembled with a more modern approach, GRP mouldings, and what appears to be more of a over lapping design with side seams. Both the others are 'traditional' in assembly, with the inherent problems associated. Regardless of others who have commented on retro remedial work to ensure continued integrity, the old extruded aluminium capping profiles with their plethora of screws and rubber/pvc covering strips are flawed by design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I recall driving in 1993 a hired removal van based on a Mercedes chassis similar to that used on the Auto-Trail vehicle. Although the hirer assured me that it had power-steering I found it tremendously hard work when manoeurving at slow speed. There’s no indication in the adverts that the Auto-Trail’s Mercedes motor is turbocharged (motorcavanners often had them turbocharged retrospectively) so on-road performance should be expected to be lethargic. None of the three vehicles will be a ball of fire, but the Auto-Trail in particular needs a realistic test-drive that includes steep hills and slow-speed manoeuvring. (I notice that the mileage of the VW Compass Navigator is now advertised as being 80,500) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I think you've been looking at the wrong AT Mike! The one in question is the older Merc based one, and has very prominent aly coverstrips. On balance, I think I'd favour the VW Compass Drifter over the other two, but one would need to give any of them very close scrutiny, especially the corners of the washrooms and tha shower trays. Must say I agree with Dave about the way they are being presented. Spotless inside and out it seems, so all credtit to the dealer for taking his potential customers seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Well spotted! Teach me not to pay attention.....however given the price difference between that and the others short-listed, I'd still go for the '98 Cheyenne - think it would be worth finding the extra 1or 2k. Prospective purchaser wants a rear lounge, and is not concerned by size - seems a better proposition for a little extra, and at this time of year it's worth putting in an offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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