Seatbelt question

[jeffo]

Hi.

 

I am looking at buying a motorhome. It is a 2010 Hymer Carado A366 7 berth.

 

For some reason it only has 4 seatbelts including the driver and passenger. Most of the time this will be fine, but on the odd occasion we will need to carry an additional 2 passengers.

 

The 2 rear seatbelts are on 2 forward facing seats. Another forward facing seat and the 3 rear facing seats do not have belts.

 

We will do most of our travelling in UK, but also intend on touring France and even Portugal.

 

What is the legal requirement in the UK and abroad?

 

Is it possibly to SAFELY and LEGALLY fit 2 extra seat belts, assuming the work is completed by a professional?

 

Thanks

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that the matter of an adequate number of seat-belts was touched on when you were considering buying a 7-berth Rimor a few weeks ago.

 

Inquiries about the UK's seat-belt regulations and how they relate to motorhomes come up fairly often. This earlier forum discussion (and the links within it) should help

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Seat-belts/36518/

 

It’s probable that the manufacture of a 2010 Carado will have involved European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval, so I’d question whether retro-fitting more seat-belts than the four Carado provided originally would be legal unless extra seat-belts had been a Carado factory option. It’s quite likely that extra belts could be fitted that should be safe in an accident, but doing this and meeting UK regulations is another matter.

 

If it were practicable to fit extra seat-belts and meet UK regulations, the modified motorhome should be fully legal to drive outside the UK.

[PJay]

I would not want to carry any one in rear van seats. You do not have a boot behind you so very vunerble to a rear shunt!!

Also would you have a payload for 6 people and the luggage?? Could they not travel in a car, and follow you? You could then at least slepp them in van, though I would think a bit crowded, for living in. Another point , the insurance may not be valid if you change the carrying capacity of the manufacturers, as stated on the Registraion Document.

PJay

[George Collings]

Derek has outlined the main problems, another consideration is spare payload. I believe the standard on the 3500kg MAM chassis is 535kg. For type approval each passenger is assumed to be 75kg. Six times that figure is 450Kg only leaving 105 for any additional accesories, clothing, food or water. I doubt if approval would be possible.

 

If the chassis is 3850kg MAM there is a little more slack but in practice all the passenger would be well towards the front half of the vehicle and front axle loading the limiting factor.

 

The necessary paperwork including theoretical calculations for TA and the actual work would not be cheap.

In essence its the wrong van for your requirements. It would almost certainly be cheaper to change your vehicle

[Derek Uzzell]

I think Carado might have offered the A366 model in 2010 based on a Fiat Ducato base as well as on a RWD Ford Transit, but I’m guessing that in this case it’s the Transit that’s being asked about.

 

There are a couple of examples here

 

http://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/used-motorhomes/hymer/carado-a366

 

and the 2009 LHD version is said to have 6 belted seats. There’s another example here

 

http://www.nettikaravaani.com/carado/a366/1410270

 

with a photo that seems to show 3-point belts fitted to the 2-person rearwards-facing bench seat. I’ve no idea whether the ‘6-belt’ vehicles had the extra belts as a factory option or the belts were retro-fitted, but the standard layout of a 2010 Transit-based Carado A366 has only 4 belted seats - 2 in the cab and 2 in the rear.

 

Weight-wise, a MAM of 3500kg appears to be the norm, but (as George suggests) motorhomes on the Transit Mk 7 twinned rear-wheel chassis would often be marketed with a 3850kg MAM option.

 

Other manufacturers (eg. Chausson and CI) produced ‘family’ motorhomes on the same Transit RWD chassis as the Carado’s and with a similar layout. Some of these may have had more than 4 seat-belts as standard, but finding examples in the UK may not be easy.

[Derek Uzzell]

A brief follow-up...

 

Specification details of the Transit-based Carado A366 model are given in an October 2008 French motorhome magazine I happen to have. These include a “Places carte grise” figure (ie. the maximum number of passengers a French-registered A366 could legally carry) of six.

 

However, there’s a footnote advising that, to carry more than the standard four passengers, the “Security II Option Pack” would need to be specified. Presumbly this adds the extra two seat-belts and (very likely) a strong attachment structure for the belts.

 

This information applied to 2009 model-year Carados, but it may well be the case that 4-belt or 6-belt Transit-based A366s were also available in later model-years.

[Brian Kirby]

Even so, I'm inclined to think George's point re payload is the killer. It is possible that the five extra passengers (I think the driver, plus water, fuel, and gas at 90% full, should all be included in the MIRO for a 2010 van, but this critically needs checking) would come in at 375kg, but if all are adults I'd be a bit surprised if this were true. Even if they did, the payload would be reduced to 160kg, hardly sufficient for a van carrying six. Then, as the van is second hand, I assume the previous owner may well have added a few options or extras, such as an awning, to further deplete the payload. On balance, I'd say that for a van of this size to work practically with six on board, it needs to be at least on a 3,850kg chassis. Just the size of a six/seven berth van will make its unladen weight relatively high, and that won't go into a 3,500kg MAM with sufficient payload for workability. So, I agree; wrong van. Sorry!

[Derek Uzzell]

The two forum-threads relating to Jeff’s earlier inquiries are here

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/rimor-katamanaro-awning/36390/

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Engine-Size-for-7-Berth-Motorhome/36444/

 

Presumably Jeff subsequently chose not to go ahead with purchasing the FWD version of the Transit-based Rimor Katamarano Sound, but the observations made in those threads still apply.

 

7-berth motorhomes around 7-metres in length do exist, but are relatively rare. Some of these vehicles will have 6 seat-belts (though not all of the belts may be 3-point). The idea of retro-fitting seat-belts should be dropped. It’s likely that a MAM of 3500kg will be (at best) marginal if six people are being carried.

[Rayjsj]

As others have said, i think that the Retro-fitting of seatbelts is a minefield, no dealer or engineer will risk the litigation should an accident ensue. And i would think twice before attempting it yourself, if a passenger was injured whilst wearing 'your' seatbelt, think of the aggro if they had to sue you !

just not worth it.

Ray

[Keithl]

Jeff,

 

Have a look at the series of videos posted by MMM and Bailey MH's on their crash test programme.

Here is a link to Video 1...

.

 

And then ask yourself if you want to try retro-fitting seat belts or indeed use a seatbelt retro-fitted by an unknown person?

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

Jeff’s original question was whether two more seat-belts could safely and legally be retro-fitted to a 2010 Carado A366.

 

It’s evident that having belts on the rearwards-facing 2-person bench seat was a factory option for this model, so it’s quite likely that retro-fitting belts to that seat would be practicable. If the work were carried out with proper regard to strengthening the seat structure and the belt attachment points, there’s no reason to think that the result would be less safe than the factory option.

 

I don’t know what impact ECWVTA might have on the ‘legality’ of retro-fitting belts to a motorhome, but it would be sensible to consult one’s insurance provider about doing this as they might be unhappy with the idea.

 

A GOOGLE-search on “seat belt retro-fitting” shows that there are UK companies offering this service.

 

For example, this firm will fit extra belts to motorhomes

 

http://seatbeltservice.co.uk/services-repairs/camper-van-seat-belts/

 

and should be able to comment practically on the work likely to be involved, the probable cost and the legal implications.

[flicka]

IMHO it's a NO GO, With the cost implications and already marginal payload, the additional weight of the steelwork for the further 2 seat there would be no realistic margin left/

[lennyhb]

Agree about the payload, the additional metalwork would add at least 50kg - 75 kg.

 

They appear to be on the Transit 2400 chassis isn't this the twin rear wheel job? If so I would have thought it could be upgraded to 4000kg or 4250kg.

[Derek Uzzell]

The twinned rear-wheel RWD Transit chassis on which this type of multi-berth, multi-seat ‘family’ motorhome was based was often offered with a 3850kg MAM as an alternative to the 3500kg MAM, and it might be possible to uprate beyond 3850kg using SVTech’s services.

 

However, there are some indications from Jeff’s inquiries that he may wish to limit the MAM of any motorhome he purchases to 3500kg maximum. If that’s the case, then uprating’s out.

 

If Jeff is prepared (or able) to purchase a vehicle with a MAM over 3500kg, then the logical approach would be for him to look for motorhomes with the heavier MAM and with the required number of seat-belts already fitted. That way payload should be sufficient even with 6 people on board and there’d be no need for concern about the safety/legality implications of retro-fitting belts.