battery charge question pleease

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-30 2:22 PM

 

I think I recall that the battery configuration for Ford-based Auto-Sleepers motorhomes with diesel-fuelled heating involved two Ford (60Ah ?) factory-fitted ’starter-type’ batteries (with both used to start the vehicle, but only one used to power the vehicle’s electrical accessories), plus a 90Ah leisure-battery installed during the Auto-Sleepers conversion process. Not sure how the charging arrangement would work, but it’s quite likely that, with the Ford two-battery arrangement, there would also be a beefed-up alternator.

 

 

My Duetto was a 2008 model on a MK7 Transit and the battery arrangements were, a) a 60 a/h Ford branded starter battery, which occupied the rear position under the drivers seat and b) a 90 a/h Varta leisure battery fitted in the forward position under the drivers seat. The Varta battery, contrary to what you may think was supplied as standard by Ford. The alternator was standard.

 

The MK7 Transit normally came with the two batteries mentioned above and the idea was that the 'starter' battery was just that and all other electrical functions (including, for example, locking and the radio) were powered from the forward mounted 'leisure' battery. I had correspondence with Auto-Sleeper over who specified the size of the 'leisure' battery and they claimed that as it was a Ford fitted item they (A-S) had no control so sometimes the vehicles would arrive at A-S for conversion fitted with a 60 a/h battery and sometimes with a 90 a/h battery. If the OP has the 60 a/h version fitted, then a good upgrade would be to swap it for the 90 a/h model.

 

Note, the 'leisure' battery fitted to my Duetto was a Varta branded item and was supplied and fitted by Ford themselves (I had a series of increasingly bad tempered conversations with Polar Ford on this subject, as they kept claiming that Varta batteries were not a Ford part, even though Ford Commercial Services told them that they were!).

[Derek Uzzell]

I came across this 2008 MotorHomeFacts thread about Auto-Sleepers batteries.

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-57117-days0-orderasc-0.html

 

From spospe’s posting it’s clear that Ruth999’s MHF advice was inaccurate.

 

I’m not that surprised to be told that Auto-Sleepers did not fit the ‘leisure’ battery to Duettos. My 1998-bought 1996-built Transit Mk 5-based Herald Templar had a Motorcraft starter-battery and a Varta leisure-battery, though both of these were underbonnet-mounted rather than located beneath the cab-seats. I believe the chassis on which Heralds were then built were specially ordered from Ford with the two-battery arrangement as part of the specification and delivered to the Herald factory with the Motorcraft/Varta batteries already installed.

 

Other than knowing that the Varta battery was normal wet-acid type, I can’t recall whether or not it was ‘leisure’ labelled or if it was claimed to have any deep-cycling capability. (I was a lot less geeky back then!) The Herald’s battery set-up was conventional, with the Motorcraft starter-battery powering all the ‘chassis’ functions (ie. it was not just used for starting), while the Varta battery just provided power for the habitation services. I sold the Herald in 2004 and both batteries were still doing their job adequately after 8 years.

 

Apparently the Ford Transit Mk 5 chassis with twin batteries was also specified for ambulances and the way the batteries were wired up was not necessarily standardised. One Herald owner happily used his motorhome for some time unaware that, although the leisure-battery was being charged via a mains hook-up, the motorhome’s habitation equipment was actually being powered by the vehicle’s starter-battery. This only came to light when the owner spent a long, cold-weather weekend with no EHU available and the starter-battery went flat.

 

Presumably David’s 2009 Duetto has a similar battery arrangement to spospe’s 2008 version and “...two vehicle batteries rather than one leisure” means that the vehicle only has two batteries and that neither is intended specifically to proviide a 'deep-cycling’ capability.

 

I think the largest size (dimensionally) battery that would fit beneath a Mk 7’s cab-seat will be (nominally) 350mm(L) x 175(W) x 190(H). There are many batteries of that size, but Varta’s LFD90 dual-purpose battery should be suitable and as good as any for around £80.

 

http://www.tayna.co.uk/LFD90-Varta-Professional-DC-Leisure-Battery-930090080-P3638.html

[duetto owner]

our duetto heater will not run on gas the 2nd battery [for habitation was replaced about a year ago. at the time of replacement checked with marquis two vechicle batteries is standard for our van

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-30 2:22 PM

 

I believe the blown-air heater fitted to Transit Mk 7-based Duettos would have been an Eberspacher “Airtronic” D2 model, plus the “Airlectric” mains-powered add-on.

 

 

This is correct from late 2007 onwards, before that Duettos did not have the Airlectric mains powered add-on. All MK7 Transit Duettos had diesel heaters, none of them ever had gas heaters.

 

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-30 2:22 PM

 

I think I recall that the battery configuration for Ford-based Auto-Sleepers motorhomes with diesel-fuelled heating involved two Ford (60Ah ?) factory-fitted ’starter-type’ batteries (with both used to start the vehicle, but only one used to power the vehicle’s electrical accessories), plus a 90Ah leisure-battery installed during the Auto-Sleepers conversion process.

 

 

This is not right as it implies the fitting of three batteries and there is only space under the driver's seat for two. It is possible to install batteries under the passenger seat, but this has never been done as standard by AS.

 

To summarise what is becoming a bit of a drawn-out thread. All Duettos built on a MK7 Transit have the following battery installation as standard (and all the batteries were all supplied by Ford).

 

1) A 60 a/h Ford branded, starter battery, fitted under the driver's seat at the rear of the compartment.

2) Either a 60 a/h Varta branded 'leisure' battery, or the 90 a/h version, fitted under the driver's seat at the front of the compartment (most were the 90 a/h version).

3) All MK7 Transit based Duettos had diesel heating, never gas and from late 2007 onwards they had the Airlectric unit as well.

 

My best advice is to check the capacity of the front 'leisure' battery and if it is the 60 a/h version, swap it for the 90 a/h version for at least a 50% increase in heater running time. It is possible to add further batteries under the front passenger seat, albeit at the cost of the safe's capacity.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I’m happy to be corrected about a Transit Mk 7-based Duetto’s 2-battery arrangement - you’ve owned one and I haven’t.

 

My recollection was that some Mk 6/Mk 7-based Auto-Sleepers had three batteries, two Ford-supplied and an extra ‘habitation’ one fitted by Auto-Sleepers. This impression was gained from Auto-Sleepers own advertising that I interpreted as indicating there were two ‘leisure’ batteries, a 60Ah + a 85Ah, and my understanding was that this arrangement was used on Ford-based models with diesel-fuelled heating.

 

In fact, if you browse through the following ASOF 2012 discussion, you’ll see that a 3-battery set-up is mentioned (though not with regard to Duettos), as is peculiar wiring of the Ford-fitted batteries and the inadequacy of the Auto-Sleepers handbook.

 

http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t2378-autosleeper-rienza-vehicle-battery-issues

 

A long time ago there was an extended discussion on the O&AL forum about the battery-charging system fitted by Auto-Sleepers. As there was so much contradiction I chose to contact Auto-Sleepers myself asking for clarification and the chap who was then responsible for producing the A-S handbooks sent me the relevant extract.

 

A dialogue followed beginning with me saying “The battery-charging advice is ambiguous and won’t be easy for a novice motorcaravanner to understand”, him replying “How about this then?” and me saying “It’s still opaque and ambiguous - this is what I suggest goes in the handbook.” I believe both of us lost heart in the end and I’ve no idea if the A-S handbook was revised.

 

Marquis apparently told duetto-owner that two ‘vehicle' batteries were standard for his Duetto. I don’t know if the original Varta-branded battery was labelled as being a ‘leisure’ type (I’m fairly sure the Varta battery on my Herald was so labelled), but it’s very unlikely to have been a full-house deep-cycle battery.

 

I don’t either what battery Marquis fitted as a replacement, but a good dual-purpose type OUGHT to be better than a battery marketed specifically for starting duties. Consequently a Varta LFD90 should be preferable to a somewhat cheaper Varta F6.

[spospe]

Derek

 

I agree entirely with you about the somewhat ambiguous information supplied by AS regarding Duetto wiring and batteries. I also agree that it is, at times very difficult to get the true picture from them, as to be frank, their record system is not of the best.

 

My final word on the subject (to try and help the OP check what he has got installed) is that the Varta part number for the 'leisure' battery is: 957-052-000 and it is a deep cycle battery NOT a starter battery.

[Brambles]

Unfortunately the 957-052-000 is no longer available. More is the pity as a darn good battery. Some sellers will still list it but what they will supply is an LFD90.

[Derek Uzzell]

I see that Transit Mk 7 batteries were discussed (in some depth and with a fair amount of confusion) here:

 

http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=103995&start=30

 

The Varta “Hobby” range of deep-cycle batteries was mentioned in 2011 by Brambles

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/VARTA-Leisure-Batteries-New-Range/25243/

 

Some UK on-line retailers are stll advertising Varta Hobby batteries (example below)

 

http://www.barden-ukshop.com/varta-hobby-81310-a28-12v-110ah-leisure-battery-2088-p.asp

 

but (as Brambles advises) there’s no indication that the “E33 957-052-000” size is still marketed in the UK (nor, for that matter, no sign of the equivalent size Bosch L4 battery being available here either).

 

The dimensions of the largest battery that will fit beneath a Transit Mk 7’s cab-seat are 353mm(L) x 175mm(W) x 190mm(H) - the dimensions of a Varta Hobby E33 - so an equivalent replacement for the E33 that’s marketed specifically for deep-cycle applications would be Banner’s “Energy Bull” 957-51 100Ah battery.

 

From what spospe has advised, a Transit Mk 7-based Duetto should be expected to have been sold originally with a starter-battery and a deep-cycle battery. Consequently, the advice given to duetto-owner by Marquis may well have been incorrect.

[Brambles]

There are also Exide's Equipment Batteries such as ET650 90Ah but Iam finding it a bit pricy at £130 ish when the Banner 100Ah is £100ish for a similar life. However the Exide should have a lower water consumption and lower self discharge rate which may be of a large benefit to some.

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-01 8:50 AM

 

From what spospe has advised, a Transit Mk 7-based Duetto should be expected to have been sold originally with a starter-battery and a deep-cycle battery. Consequently, the advice given to duetto-owner by Marquis may well have been incorrect.

 

Something which has just occurred to me, is to query the battery securing system fitted to the OP's Duetto. The battery clamp fitted to my machine was a standard Ford part and located both the starter battery and the leisure battery. As these batteries had different dimensions, this clamp would not have fitted two standard sized starter batteries as it was tailor made for the job.

 

This subject is obviously subject to some confusion and doubt, but what is certain is that a MK7 Transit can take a 60 a/h starter battery and a 90 a/h leisure battery under the driver's seat. My advice to the OP therefore is to check what has been fitted by removing the seat (easy job with 5 Torx 40 bolts to remove) and if necessary replace the front leisure battery with a 90 a/h version.

[Derek Uzzell]

This is, to some degree, crystal-ball gazing, but if Ford were fitting 90Ah or 60Ah batteries unpredictably to Transit Mk 7s destined for motorhome conversion and the 90Ah battery was a Varta “Hobby” type, there’s a fair chance that the 60Ah battery would also have been a Varta “Hobby”.

 

The dimensions of the 90Ah Varta are 353mm(L) x 175mm(W) x 190mm(H) and (if the Mk 7’s starter-battery was similar dimensionally to that fitted to my Transit Mk 6-based motorhome) the starter-battery’s height would be 175mm. Hence, as you point out, the Ford hold-down clamp would need to cope with two different-height batteries.

 

However, within the Varta “Hobby” range was a 60Ah battery (Part No: 955 002) that had the same width and height dimensions as the 90Ah one, but was a good deal shorter at 246mm. So, if that’s the battery Ford were fitting as an alternative to the 90Ah Varta, the hold-down clamp is likely to have been suitable for both the 90Ah and the 60Ah batteries.

 

As duetto-owner’s original leisure battery was replaced by Marquis after about 4 years (which ain’t that long) and the replacement now does not seem to be performing as well as previously, I agree with you completely that it would be wise to check what’s under the seat. If it’s a nondescript 60Ah starter-battery, it would not be too surprising if it’s starting to fade after just one year.

[Brian Kirby]

If it is any help, this is the leisure battery of our Mk7 Transit based Hobby Van in situ under the front passenger's (LHD) seat. The battery was an Exide G80 (gel), 80Ah capacity at 20 hour rating. The seats and bases were standard Ford items to which Hobby had bolted swivel plates.

 

It was a snug fit in width and height (see picture "Hobby Exide"), but although the space to the front was taken by the CBE charger etc, there would have been enough room for another. The similar sized flooded, vented, Ford trademarked starter battery was beneath the driver's seat, but it was possible to mount a second Exide G80 in the space ahead of that, at the expense of an otherwise useful cubby hole, (see further pictures "Two batteries under seat 1 & 2", though in this case both are Exide gel and the starter battery was under the other seat: not my van, so don't know whether LHD or RHD). This seems to have been a common place to mount a second leisure battery, with the two linked as shown, or via cables passing under the floor mat between the front seat bases. A second battery clamp would be ideally be needed: the clamp for the starter battery was not large enough to take both, and in the pictures of the two batteries no clamp for the front battery is visible. No vents, as gel batteries do not require venting.

[Derek Uzzell]

The Hobby motorhome with the two Exide gel batteries under the seat will definitely have been RHD. Although the battery clamp does not extend over the top of the frontmost of the two batteries, it should still hold it in firmly place as the front of the crossways part of the clamp presses down on the upper rear ‘edge’ of the frontmost battery.

 

This clamp, however, won’t deal satisfactorily with a situation where a 175mm high battery (the norm for a Transit Mk 7 starter-battery) is located under a cab seat alongside a 190mm high battery (eg. an Exide 80Ah gel or Varta “Hobby” E33 90Ah battery).

[Brian Kirby]

True Derek, though a suitable restraint should be fairly easy to DIY. I was mainly interested in the combination of a diesel fuelled heater, with its higher battery demands, and the single battery fitted to David's Duetto. I thought it might be instructive to show the two Exides - which are quite large for their capacity - in place under the seat as a possible way to avoid future power shortages. 160Ah should keep even a diesel fuelled heater going for several days. If the space is there, fitting two would give greater insurance against a repeat experience for David. Assuming the charging is in order, a failing battery seems quite likely, so if replacing one it would be the ideal opportunity (and apparently quite straightforward) for David to fit a matched pair and double his capacity.

[Derek Uzzell]

I agree about the Duetto’s smallish-capacity single leisure-battery/diesel-fuelled heater combination, though I guess Auto-Sleepers may have considered the battery adequately-sized for a panel-van conversion that wasn’t really marketed for longish off-campsite stays in wintry weather.

 

These are a couple more Ford Transit Forum discussions that may be of interest:

 

http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=132536

 

http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=126938

 

It’s noticeable that the design of the battery clamp differs from the one shown in the photos you provided, having an extension that goes over the top of the frontmost battery.

 

I’m slightly wary of the idea of adding another leisure-battery to David’s Duetto, mainly because there seems to be questions about how the dual-battery arrangement factory-fitted by Ford functions.

 

A Transit-based Hobby motorhome starts out with just the Ford-fitted starter-battery. Hobby then fits a cbe-made electrical system and the leisure-battery is connected to that. Adding a 2nd leisure-battery is uncontroversial, just involving parallel-connection to the first leisure-battery.

 

I would have thought it SHOULD be OK to do the same with David’s Duetto, I’m just not certain as I don’t know what (if any) ‘intervenrion’ Auto-Sleepers might have performed.

 

This is another Transit 2-batteries thread (not to be read by ailurophiles) and a 60Ah auxiliary battery is mentioned

 

http://pc800.co.uk/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=871

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-02 8:12 AM.................It’s noticeable that the design of the battery clamp differs from the one shown in the photos you provided, having an extension that goes over the top of the frontmost battery.

Which should, presumably, be available as a standard Ford part - if a dealer can be persuaded to identify it. In the limited space available, if feasible, it would be a better job than a DIY strap.

 

I’m slightly wary of the idea of adding another leisure-battery to David’s Duetto, mainly because there seems to be questions about how the dual-battery arrangement factory-fitted by Ford functions. .....................

I see what you mean! Bit of a lottery, it seems. AutoSleepers seem to have a fair reputation for being helpful, so perhaps a call to them would clarify how the installation was, actually, connected?

 

I assume AS will have installed a mains charger, so they must have intervened in Ford's connections somewhere. I wonder if the second battery split charge relay either fully disconnects it (or has been re-wired so that it fully disconnects) from the Transit auxilliary functions, in case switching in a mans charger produced unexpected effects. If that is the case, a second battery should be safe to connect in the normal way, albeit it would have to be sited under the opposite seat. However, AS should know, and be able to advise, on the feasibility of doing this.

[Guest Joe90]

Perhaps there is a simple explanation, his replacement battery is duff. :-S

[Derek Uzzell]

That possibility was suggested earlier in the thread and duetto-owner’s intention was to have the battery checked. As the current battery was fitted about a year ago by Marquis, they may be prepared to replace it under warranty.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-02 1:00 PM

 

... AutoSleepers seem to have a fair reputation for being helpful, so perhaps a call to them would clarify how the installation was, actually, connected?

 

LMAO ;-) ;-) ;-)