cleddytanhouse Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Hi. I have just purchased a small car to use as normal and also to tow behind my motorhome. I would welcome advice on either purchasing an A frame, or a small trailer. Which is best?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Depends on where you intend to tow it ? If in the UK, then an A-Frame is definately easier, with less storage hassles. I tow my 'Every day car' a Toyota Yaris behind my Autotrail Motorhome, which only has a 1060kg tow limit, so, a trailer is out of the question. I use a 'Car a Tow' A-Frame, which is still legal, and is still advertised in the classified section of the MMM magazine. This is an 'Over-run' braking system, the same as a Caravan system. I can confirm that it is SAFE, having towed it all over the UK. However, IF you want to tow in Europe, A-frames are frowned upon, and are potentially illegal in some EU countries, especially Spain. Hence, I don't go there. (until they come to their 'senses'). Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eswyn Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I totally agree, I have towed cars for years, (currently a Toyota Aygo), I also use the `car a tow` system. As the ad. says, you don`t know the car is there` Just be sure you are well within your weight limits and you have the correct signage etc. & you conform to the lighting regs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted December 29, 2014 Author Share Posted December 29, 2014 Thanks for the advice. One other issue is what has to be done to my car. It is a new Kia Picanto and I don't want extra bits bolted on to the front that are obvious when not being towed. I think some A frames add a second tow eye in the front bumper moulding, which can have a cover when not in use. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 That is incorrect. They have to bolt a new frame to the chassis of the car behind the grill. This will have the mountings for the new eye bolts, which can be removed when not in use. But why bother removing them, as they are not that conspicuous. Which model Piccanto are you thinking of having done. As I have for sale a complete system for the Piccanto 2 from 2008, which I removed when I sold the car. It was hardly ever used, as I bought a motorbike instead. It is very easy to install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 Hi. Thanks for your reply. My Picanto is the new Quantum model and only 3 weeks old. I guess it may be different to yours. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Is your Picanto a Manual or Auto? And if Auto can it be safely towed on it's wheels? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 peter - 2014-12-29 11:26 PM That is incorrect. They have to bolt a new frame to the chassis of the car behind the grill. This will have the mountings for the new eye bolts, which can be removed when not in use. But why bother removing them, as they are not that conspicuous. .... Because leaving eye bolts sticking out of the otherwise smooth and yielding bumper creates a penetrating/snagging hazard if you hit a pedestrian, and might therefore be regarded as an offence, if spotted by a keen-eyed traffic policeman - or of course if you do actually hit a pedestrian and the eye bolts cause injury. Not that there are many traffic police about these days, but that's the thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 It appears that an A frame is the most popular choice and having looked on the internet, there are many different ones, ranging in price from around £800 to £2250. I agree with the comment on leaving eye bolts exposed, as, not only will they look unsightly, they will also be a hazard in an accident. Apart from attaching the A frame to the car, does something have to be attached to the brake pedal and if so, how long does this take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I towed a small van on an A Frame some years ago and it towed very well - but I found htching up a bit of a pain because manoeuvring the car plus A Frame on to the towing hitch wasn't easy. Maybe that was just me. There are legal uncertainties about using A Frames in Europe, even in UK, although prsecution in UK is unlikely. But a properly set up A Frame seemed to me to be a perfectly safe way to tow a car and these things have been very widely used for many years, especially in the USA. Beaurocracy rather than good sense is the reason for the explicit illegality and probable prosecution in some countries, eg Spain, where the risk of a steep fine is said to be quite high. But some cars cannot be towed on their own wheels (eg auto gearbox models) so it has to be a towing dolly or trailer. Towing dollies are regarded as suitable only for breakdown recovery, so you take a risk of prosecution even in UK if you use one of those. I have used a trailer for a couple of years for transporting our Toyota iQ. This combination also tows well and one you get the hang of loading/unloading it's quick and easy. I prefer it to the struggle I had hitching up an A Frame but as I said that might have been just me. You can tow a heavier car if you use an A Frame within whatever yur MH's capability is) rather than car plus trailer. Reversing with an A Frame is not easy because the king pin inclination of the car's front wheels, which cause the steering to go hard over if reversed. You can nevertheless reverse to some extent with an A Frame but it ain't easy. Reversing is much easier with a trailer and I find myself doing so quite a lot, manoeuvring into place on a campsite for example. Using a trailer requires no modification to the car, so you can sell car or trailer more easily than a car with an A Frame, since there is only a small market for these. There is a volume market in car transporter trailers I reckon you can buy and sell them relatively easily, although specialised trailers for tiny cars (like Smart car trailers) are relatively expensive to buy new. A Frames don't come cheap either and adapting the car to take one is also quite costly. Towing with an A Frame counts as mileage on the car'sodometer whereas a car sitting on a trailer doesn't clock up miles. So those are the pros and cons. Some people get fanatical about claiming their way is best but I think it's a matter of personal choice. If there were no uncertainties about the legality of A Frames, I didn;t want to tow an automatic car and cost was not really a consideration, I would probably go for an A Frame. But I'm very happy with my Ifor Williams CT136SA trailer, which I bought secondhand for under £800 off EBay and could sell for the same or more. It's longer than I need but it tows well and the extra length helps with reversing. You pays your money and takes your risk............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 cleddytanhouse - 2014-12-30 11:00 AM ...Apart from attaching the A frame to the car, does something have to be attached to the brake pedal and if so, how long does this take? The A Frame incorporates a device to allow the car's brakes to come into play and this is part of the modification needed on the car. Years ago it was an overrun pull on a bowden cable attached to the car's brake pedal providing non-servo assisted overrun braking, therefore of reduced efficiency. It was a fiddly DIY job which took me several hours to fit and adjust correctly but from the towing viewpoint it did seem adequate. However part of the argument about illegality of A Frames rested on the degraded nature of this non-servo assisted braking of the car, so I understand that modern A Frames provide more effective, power-assisted braking of the car, using some sort of servo assistance. Better to get this sort of job done professionally these days; I wouldn't tackle it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave C Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 When a car is towed on its own wheels does the mileage get clocked up on the cars odometer - or is it different for modern electronic devices? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Good point. Mechanical speedometers worked independently of electrical power. I have always assumed that all cars record mileage as their wheels turn but that might no longer be the case. If I had to bet I would say they would still count the miles while being towed (as long as a battery is fittted to the vehicle) but I don;t know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 StuartO - 2014-12-30 11:15 AM ...However part of the argument about illegality of A Frames rested on the degraded nature of this non-servo assisted braking of the car, so I understand that modern A Frames provide more effective, power-assisted braking of the car, using some sort of servo assistance. Better to get this sort of job done professionally these days; I wouldn't tackle it again. I don’t think that’s actually the case... Outside the UK the A-frame towing practice will always (as far as I’m aware) be deemed illegal not for ‘technical’ reasons but because it conflicts with a country’s national traffic regulations (eg. in Spain or France). In the UK it’s not that cable-operated non-servoed overrun brakes may provide inadequate braking performance that’s a potential illegality problem (after all this is the type of braking used on caravans); it’s the fact that this type of braking includes no means of disengaging the towed car’s brakes when reversing (a requirement for braked ’trailers’ which the car is considered to be). This is sidestepped by A-frame systems where the car’s brakes are only operated when the car is being towed forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-30 2:55 PM...............I don’t think that’s actually the case... Outside the UK the A-frame towing practice will always (as far as I’m aware) be deemed illegal not for ‘technical’ reasons but because it conflicts with a country’s national traffic regulations (eg. in Spain or France). Just to enlarge a bit on Derek's point above, it matters not whether the means of towing is an A-frame or an old belt, it is the act of towing one private vehicle with another that is illegal under both French and Spanish law. In France the only exception to this rule is in the event of an emergency, when a homologated tow pole should be used, the vehicles must proceed slowly to a place of safety or repair, and the flashers of both vehicles must be operated throughout. My understanding of the situation in Spain is that there are no exceptions. Otherwise, towing may only be carried out by authorised recovery vehicles. AFAIK, there is no change to this legislation in France, but it seems that the police have decided, or been encouraged, not to penalise drivers of foreign registered (and possibly by extension French registered) vehicles that are being towed on an A-frame. (If this is so, it has nothing to do with the provisions of the Vienna Convention on International Traffic, which is sometimes cited as a legal plea to allow A-frame towing, because A-frames are not demonstrably legal for use in UK, they merely fall into a category where they are not actually illegal - that famous legal "grey area".) In the UK it’s not that cable-operated non-servoed overrun brakes may provide inadequate braking performance that’s a potential illegality problem (after all this is the type of braking used on caravans); it’s the fact that this type of braking includes no means of disengaging the towed car’s brakes when reversing (a requirement for braked ’trailers’ which the car is considered to be). This is sidestepped by A-frame systems where the car’s brakes are only operated when the car is being towed forwards. Last time I looked at the draft EU regulation on trailer braking, it contained one further potential pitfall for the use of A-frames, in that it stated, inter alia, that where a trailer was equipped with ABS, the ABS must be functional while the trailer was in tow. Anyone contemplating towing a car equipped with ABS on an A-frame while abroad (and therefore wishing to claim that it is transformed from a car into a trailer while being towed), would be well advised to check very carefully whether that provision of the draft has been changed or deleted. The cynic in me says that check should be made by reading the draft regulation one's self, and not by asking the A-frame manufacturer/seller. :-) If it remains, and is incorporated into the final regulation, the use of A-frames to flat-tow cars would seem to require not only that the brakes should work normally and disengage to reverse, but also that the car's ABS must work in conjunction with the towing vehicle's ABS. Don't understand the technical implications of that, but would imagine it would be quite difficult to incorporate into Type Approved vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 The alternative is to change to a motorhome with a proper garage at the back into which you can simply drive the car. Severial such motorhomes are available or you can have one custom built. Much better solution in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-12-30 4:53 PM My understanding of the situation in Spain is that there are no exceptions. . You can tow a broken-down vehicle in an emergency, but only to the nearest safe place where it doesn't block traffic, and never on motorways. El Art. 130 del Reglamento General de Circulación establece que “El remolque de un vehículo accidentado o averiado sólo deberá realizarse por otro específicamente destinado a este fin. Excepcionalmente, y siempre en condiciones de seguridad, se permitirá el arrastre por otros vehículos, pero sólo hasta el lugar más próximo donde pueda quedar convenientemente inmovilizado y sin entorpecer la circulación. En ningún caso será aplicable dicha excepción en las autopistas o autovías.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 An english-language equivalent of Muswell’s quote can be found in the “BREAKDOWNS” section of this webpage http://www.spain.info/en_GB/informacion-practica/consejos-viaje/consejos-practicos/conducir_en_espana/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Thank you Muswell and Derek. Not a total ban, then, but a bit more stringent than in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 StuartO - 2014-12-30 11:06 AM I towed a small van on an A Frame some years ago and it towed very well - but I found htching up a bit of a pain because manoeuvring the car plus A Frame on to the towing hitch wasn't easy. Maybe that was just me. There are legal uncertainties about using A Frames in Europe, even in UK, although prsecution in UK is unlikely. But a properly set up A Frame seemed to me to be a perfectly safe way to tow a car and these things have been very widely used for many years, especially in the USA. Beaurocracy rather than good sense is the reason for the explicit illegality and probable prosecution in some countries, eg Spain, where the risk of a steep fine is said to be quite high. But some cars cannot be towed on their own wheels (eg auto gearbox models) so it has to be a towing dolly or trailer. Towing dollies are regarded as suitable only for breakdown recovery, so you take a risk of prosecution even in UK if you use one of those. I have used a trailer for a couple of years for transporting our Toyota iQ. This combination also tows well and one you get the hang of loading/unloading it's quick and easy. I prefer it to the struggle I had hitching up an A Frame but as I said that might have been just me. You can tow a heavier car if you use an A Frame within whatever yur MH's capability is) rather than car plus trailer. Reversing with an A Frame is not easy because the king pin inclination of the car's front wheels, which cause the steering to go hard over if reversed. You can nevertheless reverse to some extent with an A Frame but it ain't easy. Reversing is much easier with a trailer and I find myself doing so quite a lot, manoeuvring into place on a campsite for example. Using a trailer requires no modification to the car, so you can sell car or trailer more easily than a car with an A Frame, since there is only a small market for these. There is a volume market in car transporter trailers I reckon you can buy and sell them relatively easily, although specialised trailers for tiny cars (like Smart car trailers) are relatively expensive to buy new. A Frames don't come cheap either and adapting the car to take one is also quite costly. Towing with an A Frame counts as mileage on the car'sodometer whereas a car sitting on a trailer doesn't clock up miles. So those are the pros and cons. Some people get fanatical about claiming their way is best but I think it's a matter of personal choice. If there were no uncertainties about the legality of A Frames, I didn;t want to tow an automatic car and cost was not really a consideration, I would probably go for an A Frame. But I'm very happy with my Ifor Williams CT136SA trailer, which I bought secondhand for under £800 off EBay and could sell for the same or more. It's longer than I need but it tows well and the extra length helps with reversing. You pays your money and takes your risk............. Some of the above is incorrect, Towing a car on an A-Frame does NOT add mileage to the Cars mileometer, the key in the ignition is only turned enough to free the steering lock, So the ignition is NOT on, hence no speedometer or mileometer.(mechanical gearbox drive, went years ago !). I bought my Car-a-Tow A-Frame (a 2011 model) online (good old E-bay) for £195. I fitted a jockey wheel, with that, I can drive the car to the tow hitch on the van, without assistance, no fluffing at all. The most expensive part is having the towing frame fitted to the front of the car, That cost me £600, including all parts and took a complete day to fit at the Car-a -tow dealers Nr. Cardiff. There are many others Countrywide, All of the parts removed from the car are retained by me for re-fitting when the time comes to replace the car. Which I will do in a couple of years. Completely safe to use, I see no 'Risk' at all. Ray Not Fanatical about A-Frame use, just resolute. I wouldn't chance doing it in Spain. And if I change my van for one with a higher tow weight limit, I would possibly get a trailer. Or I might not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Colin Leake - 2014-12-30 5:00 PM The alternative is to change to a motorhome with a proper garage at the back into which you can simply drive the car. Severial such motorhomes are available or you can have one custom built. Much better solution in my view. The only ones I have seen are the Carthago's, which at something like £150,000 plus extra's. are a bit too rich for my taste, I'll take my £195 A-Frame Thanks. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 cleddytanhouse - 2014-12-30 11:00 AM It appears that an A frame is the most popular choice and having looked on the internet, there are many different ones, ranging in price from around £800 to £2250. I agree with the comment on leaving eye bolts exposed, as, not only will they look unsightly, they will also be a hazard in an accident. Apart from attaching the A frame to the car, does something have to be attached to the brake pedal and if so, how long does this take? Hope all of the above has answered most of your questions. My advice, get the towing frame fitted to your car professionally, this is the expensive bit unfortunately, but public liability is at stake, so best get it done properly. This fitting will include the brake fittings. Good luck ! I will always answer a PM, if you have anything else to ask. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Rayjsj's posts give you the A Frame enthusiast's view. He sees the practical advantages of a well-engineered and well-fitted A Frame system and he will steer clear of Spain and apart from that is content to discount the legal unertainties completely. He has a point because the chances of getting stopped (at least in UK) are remote and the chances of being prosecuted (in UK) are even more remote. But there have been cases of being stopped and fined in France as well as Spain and I think he's being a bit too blinkered about these aspects. Likewise I think he's playing down the costs of an A Frame, which are likely to be well over £1,000 fitted these days, only a small slice of which is recoverable if you change the car. (New trailers aren't much dearer and they can be resold.) And I met the German owner of a huge Phoenix MH on a site in SE Germany a couple of years ago. He had a garage at the back. The rear double bed in the Mh jacked up toa higher level in order to squeeze a Smart Car inside, so with the car inside the bedroom was usable but degraded considerably in headroom. He said he wouldn't bother with this sort of set up again because it was too fiddly, compared with towing, which he'd done with his last mega MH. There are no perfect solutions, you pays your money and you makes your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Car manufacturers go to great lengths to design and build vehicles that are as safe as possible and so that they will meet all of the current safety regs etc (with all their crumple zones, smooth(ish) front ends etc).. So how anyone can square the above, with small fabrication firms, just removing these specially designed(and tested!)front "crumple beams" and replacing them by bolting on chunks of crude box section and then just screwing in a couple of towing eyes, beats me... :-S Mickydripin's experience, is worth another read... https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/A-frame-removal/34372/ (and if they "concern" the likes of Nick(euroserve), then they should concern every A frame user.... :-S) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 StuartO - 2014-12-31 9:31 AM ...But there have been cases of being stopped and fined in France as well as Spain and I think he's being a bit too blinkered about these aspects... While UK motorcaravanners have certainly been fined for A-framing in Spain, I’m not aware of anyone (of any nationality) being fined for A-framing in France (yet). Where does your information come from, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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